Should the Niqab be banned?

[Arnold_ShalwarNekar]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@PyariCgudia

And no one has any excuse STILL for why there is a hadith where Rasululah (SAW) recommends to keep the face and hands and feet uncovered. If niqabs were mandatory, why would he not inform the woman who sought advice that this is so?

Very good. You are the only sane person I see here so far. Can we meet in Trump towers so that you can tell me its nice meeting me

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Sa1eem

And yea … remember that a women cannot do Hajj in Niqab. If Niqab was part of Islamic code than there was no reason a Muslim women had to abandon Niqab while performing Hajj.

I think, that in itself is clear indication and proof that Niqab is nothing to do with Islam … rather, not wearing Niqab during Hajj confirms that Allah do not want Muslim women to wear Niqab.

Allah has created and given face to human so that human can recognize each other. To hide that face in niqab mean insulting the purpose of creating face by Allah … as primary purpose of face creation by Allah is recognition (so that people recognize each other). Looks and beauty is secondary purpose of face creation.

And yea, if what I have written above, that Allah wants Muslims (mea or women) to not cover their face so that they can recognize each other, than obviously those who wear Niqab considering that as command of Allah, are disobeying Allah, for which they would be answerable.

On the other hand, if purpose of covering face is environmental need (saving face from extreme cold or heat) or something else that is nothing to do with Islam … for instance, personal like, dislike or preferences … than that is fine.

Restrictions applicable in the state of ihram are exceptional and applicable only to the state of ihram. So its restriction during Hajj is not a basis to say that it is forbidden apart from Hajj.

[Captain1]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

Good luck banging your head with long paragraphs

[Sa1eem]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Muzna

Respectfully Saleem saheb, while I am willing to concede that the concept you are trying to convey may be somewhat relevant, I don’t agree with your position when it comes to the sole reason behind the verse that we are discussing.

Sister, obviously I am not asking you to concede to what I have mentioned. I wrote what I know, understand and believe. Now it is up to you to accept it or reject it, cause in the end, Muslims are responsible of own knowledge, understandings and beliefs. I believe what I wrote is true and logical, but if you think what I wrote is untrue than be it for you. No persuasion other than discussion and pointing out the facts according to knowledge one have.

(And just as an aside…the reason why I posted the link to the Maududi commentary is to illustrate that there was no shortage of non-Muslims in the area and the need to be “recognized” as Muslims remained. But that is a very small point and not necessary to discuss since I don’t agree with your stance on the much larger aspects of the argument.)

Well, I think you should re-read the commentary by Maududi and re-assess what you wrote, as what you wrote contradicts what Maududi wrote, even though you are referring to Maududi writing. Maududi in that commentary mostly wrote situation before surah was revealed, not about situation at the time surah was revealed… plus he also wrote that Jews in Madina were living separately from Muslims, … hence living separately, there was little chance of intermingling at public places and molest women of each other.

Nevertheless … here is what I know (that you can confirm):

When Prophet (SAW) migrated to Madina, in Madina, there were mostly Arabs and Jews. Arabs accepted Islam (though there were some who were Munafiqs too … but you can consider them Muslim in practical sense, as they were acting as if they were Muslims).

As for Jews, there were few tribes in Madina (I think, 5 different tribes … 3 big and 2 small or insignificant). Three were big and quite powerful tribes, and they were Banu Nadhir, Banu Qaynuqa and banu Qurayzah. Each tribes had their own area where they used to live.

Two of these tribes, Banu Nadhir and Banu Qaynuqa got banished from Madina before gazwa-e-Khandaq. The remaining big tribe, Banu Qurayzah got terminated just after gazwa-e-Khandaq.

Surah al-Ahzab was revealed after gazwa-e-Khandaq … and it means, after 3 of the main Jews tribes were either banished or terminated.

It also means that Madina after termination of Qurayzah became overwhelmingly Muslim city, though even before that, when all Jews were living in Madina, Muslims (who were mostly of Arab descent) were living separately from Jews.

So … when Muslim women were getting teased and molested, the person teasing or molesting were Muslims (where Munafiqs are included, as for Muslim society, they were Muslims).

It also mean women the ayah is talking about, women who were getting molested in public places, were Muslims, and molesters were Muslims too.

So, for a woman, to wear a certain type of dress to declare that they are Muslim become meaningless … because in the area they were living and moving around, men and women, all were Muslims anyhow.

Thus to say that women were told to put on niqab so that they can be recognized as Muslim is ridiculously funny. It is just like saying that in a society where all (each and every one) are Pakistanis, one is wearing Jinah cap to get recognized as Pakistani. :). It is just like, in a gathering of 100 donkeys, one donkey has a poster on his back saying that he is a donkey.

So, to me, it is obvious that the ayah does not mean to say that by wearing certain dress they would get recognized as Muslim (as all were Muslims anyhow), but ayah says that if they do not cover their face then people would recognize them (as someone they know or not) and thus would not molest them.

(Aside #2 - If we are to use ihram as the “dress code” for Muslims then why do we not see men and women dressed in the ihram all the time? Why just at the time of haj? And if we apply your “molestation deterrent” theory then it could be said that women are told to leave their faces uncovered at the time of haj because it is understood that all those in attendance would be devout and pious momins and they would never consider “molesting” anyone so no need to protect. But this would be conjecture…wouldn’t it?)

Well, I never said that what Muslims (men and women) wear on Hajj, is dressing code for Muslims.

Actually, I mentioned the word ‘Aurah’, that is part a Muslim male and female should cover in public, as minimum dressing requirement, and that is what Muslim men and women wear during Hajj … as that is what Allah desires from Muslim men and women. It does not mean Muslim men and women could not were cloths that cover more than ‘Aurah’. Normally they do.

I mentioned Hajj dressing to say that … if niqab was desired and required by Allah for Muslim women, than that requirement would have been during Hajj too … as requirement in Hajj is to cover what Allah wants Muslim men and women to cover minimum. If Allah forbids covering face by women during Hajj, it means that covering face is not requirement from Allah …

But then, if a woman is having complex about her looks, or women with dubious character wants to hide her face in public than she has all right to hide her face if society do not consider that abhorrent, no problem. Some women can hide their face for whatever reason they find it fit, that is also no problem.

Only thing I am saying is that, hiding face (with niqab) from public is nothing to do with Islam, that is all.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Captain_Obvious

Restrictions applicable in the state of ihram are exceptional and applicable only to the state of ihram. So its restriction during Hajj is not a basis to say that it is forbidden apart from Hajj.

I never wrote that Niqab is forbidden in day to day life. If anyone wants to, be they man or woman, they can wear Niqab.

What I wrote is that Niqab is forbidden during Hajj. As far as Islam is concerned, one can walk around in whatever dress one wants to, as long as ‘Aurah’ is covered … and covering ‘Aurah’ is applicable during Hajj too.

Only thing is that, covering anything more than ‘Aurah’ is nothing to do with Islam. It is personal choice and sometime preferred choice. But to cover more than ‘Aurah’ and consider that as command of Allah, that is problematic (and sin too).

[Muzna]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Sa1eem

Sister, obviously I am not asking you to concede to what I have mentioned. I wrote what I know, understand and believe. Now it is up to you to accept it or reject it, cause in the end, Muslims are responsible of own knowledge, understandings and beliefs. I believe what I wrote is true and logical, but if you think what I wrote is untrue than be it for you. No persuasion other than discussion and pointing out the facts according to knowledge one have.

Well, I think you should re-read the commentary by Maududi and re-assess what you wrote, as what you wrote contradicts what Maududi wrote, even though you are referring to Maududi writing. Maududi in that commentary mostly wrote situation before surah was revealed, not about situation at the time surah was revealed… plus he also wrote that Jews in Madina were living separately from Muslims, … hence living separately, there was little chance of intermingling at public places and molest women of each other.

Nevertheless … here is what I know (that you can confirm):

When Prophet (SAW) migrated to Madina, in Madina, there were mostly Arabs and Jews. Arabs accepted Islam (though there were some who were Munafiqs too … but you can consider them Muslim in practical sense, as they were acting as if they were Muslims).

As for Jews, there were few tribes in Madina (I think, 5 different tribes … 3 big and 2 small or insignificant). Three were big and quite powerful tribes, and they were Banu Nadhir, Banu Qaynuqa and banu Qurayzah. Each tribes had their own area where they used to live.

Two of these tribes, Banu Nadhir and Banu Qaynuqa got banished from Madina before gazwa-e-Khandaq. The remaining big tribe, Banu Qurayzah got terminated just after gazwa-e-Khandaq.

Surah al-Ahzab was revealed after gazwa-e-Khandaq … and it means, after 3 of the main Jews tribes were either banished or terminated.

It also means that Madina after termination of Qurayzah became overwhelmingly Muslim city, though even before that, when all Jews were living in Madina, Muslims (who were mostly of Arab descent) were living separately from Jews.

So … when Muslim women were getting teased and molested, the person teasing or molesting were Muslims (where Munafiqs are included, as for Muslim society, they were Muslims).

It also mean women the ayah is talking about, women who were getting molested in public places, were Muslims, and molesters were Muslims too.

So, for a woman, to wear a certain type of dress to declare that they are Muslim become meaningless … because in the area they were living and moving around, men and women, all were Muslims anyhow.

Thus to say that women were told to put on niqab so that they can be recognized as Muslim is ridiculously funny. It is just like saying that in a society where all (each and every one) are Pakistanis, one is wearing Jinah cap to get recognized as Pakistani. :). It is just like, in a gathering of 100 donkeys, one donkey has a poster on his back saying that he is a donkey.

So, to me, it is obvious that the ayah does not mean to say that by wearing certain dress they would get recognized as Muslim (as all were Muslims anyhow), but ayah says that if they do not cover their face then people would recognize them (as someone they know or not) and thus would not molest them.

**
Well, I never said that what Muslims (men and women) wear on Hajj, is dressing code for Muslims.

Actually, I mentioned the word ‘Aurah’, that is part a Muslim male and female should cover in public, as minimum dressing requirement, and that is what Muslim men and women wear during Hajj … as that is what Allah desires from Muslim men and women. It does not mean Muslim men and women could not were cloths that cover more than ‘Aurah’. Normally they do.

I mentioned Hajj dressing to say that … if niqab was desired and required by Allah for Muslim women, than that requirement would have been during Hajj too … as requirement in Hajj is to cover what Allah wants Muslim men and women to cover minimum. If Allah forbids covering face by women during Hajj, it means that covering face is not requirement from Allah …

But then, if a woman is having complex about her looks, or women with dubious character wants to hide her face in public than she has all right to hide her face if society do not consider that abhorrent, no problem. Some women can hide their face for whatever reason they find it fit, that is also no problem.

Only thing I am saying is that, hiding face (with niqab) from public is nothing to do with Islam, that is all.

I will re-read the Maududi tafseer and will look up others as well, insha Allah. I definitely want to gain the proper understanding and that can’t be done just by working with one reference for sure.

In any event, your first statement is accurate…you wrote what you understood. My opinion differs after reading the same and I don’t find the points you have brought forward compelling enough to change my view right now.

As for the mention of muslim dress code being the ihram…perhaps you did not refer to it as such but the inference is there that the requirement of covering stems from what is permitted to be worn while performing hajj. However, even in this case, and even by your own words: “as requirement in Hajj is to cover what Allah wants Muslim men and women to cover minimum…it means that covering face is not requirement from Allah…” there is no prohibition to cover the face at times other than during hajj.

Your position would be fully accurate if you added a qualifier to your statement as such: “it means that covering face is not requirement from Allah during hajj”.

Right now I don’t have enough evidence to either support or deny the claim that niqab is a requirement in Islam so I have refrained from making either of those statements.

My position that we have no basis or right to ban niqab still stands.

[Muzna]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Sa1eem

I never wrote that Niqab is forbidden in day to day life. If anyone wants to, be they man or woman, they can wear Niqab.

What I wrote is that Niqab is forbidden during Hajj. As far as Islam is concerned, one can walk around in whatever dress one wants to, as long as ‘Aurah’ is covered … and covering ‘Aurah’ is applicable during Hajj too.

Only thing is that, covering anything more than ‘Aurah’ is nothing to do with Islam. It is personal choice and sometime preferred choice. But to cover more than ‘Aurah’ and consider that as command of Allah, that is problematic (and sin too).

THIS I can agree with.

[Muzna]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Doppleganger

Yes, true, it is about tradition but this guy would wear a topi and his wife was in a burqa.

Frankly, if you can have sex with your spouse then buying what haya / sharam to buy a feminine product?

To me, it is like bikini aka waterproof underwear is perfectly ok on a beach but then cleavage is bad. Like WTF?

I get what you mean. Really I do. But again I would refer to a level of “personal comfort” in the area.
Perhaps that haya/sharam is my shortcoming. I don’t know. What I do know is that both he and I are okay with things being this way and our understanding doesn’t impact anyone else’s life. Perhaps the same applies to the couple that frequented that shop? Who knows?
(Another thing…many couples are okay with going to the bathroom within earshot of their spouse…some are not. Doesn’t make either of them wrong. )

As for your reference to the bikini…well…certain attire is appropriate for certain places…it’s socially acceptable for some of my colleagues to appear in the tiniest of string bikinis when we are on a company retreat in Los Cabos but they would die before they would show cleavage in the office between 9-5. I don’t see anything wrong with that…

Maybe I’m just old-fashioned.

[Muzna]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Captain1

Good luck banging your head with long paragraphs

I don’t intend/need to.
The vast majority of the argument is conjecture based on early points. If you don’t agree with the initial stance then everything beneath is irrelevant.

[Doppleganger]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

@Muzna

I get what you mean. Really I do. But again I would refer to a level of “personal comfort” in the area.
Perhaps that haya/sharam is my shortcoming. I don’t know. What I do know is that both he and I are okay with things being this way and our understanding doesn’t impact anyone else’s life. Perhaps the same applies to the couple that frequented that shop? Who knows?
(Another thing…many couples are okay with going to the bathroom within earshot of their spouse…some are not. Doesn’t make either of them wrong. )

As for your reference to the bikini…well…certain attire is appropriate for certain places…it’s socially acceptable for some of my colleagues to appear in the tiniest of string bikinis when we are on a company retreat in Los Cabos but they would die before they would show cleavage in the office between 9-5. I don’t see anything wrong with that…

Maybe I’m just old-fashioned.

string bikini and then cleavage is bad? Yeah, I don’t see how these states of minds are possible unless it is bad / frowned upon in the office. I think that you are in US (texas?) so I can say that women do get a lot of latitude in what they can wear to office compared to men. You can’t have a men showing up in shorts (no one would wear kilts) and sandals like women can.

[Captain1]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

PCG: I found a friend/hum-nawa of yours on TV: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1560812977542976

He very much agrees with you … if you love Prophet PBUH then you don’t even need dupatta

[Doppleganger]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

The comment section was great. People were really following sunnat-e-rasool there…

[Arnold_ShalwarNekar]

Re: Should the Niqab be banned?

I’ll allow all muslim women to wear two pieces only.. Now if they choose niqab as one of them, i dont hv any problem with that