Shia Sunni Dialogue

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

I THINK IT DOESNT MATTER IF UR SUNNI OR SHIA AND SOME PEOPLE MAKE A BIG FUSS ABOUT BEING IT ALL THAT MATTERS IZ IF UR A TRUE MUSLIM :biggthumb

2011 Brides
62

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother e Mohtarem

Now you have raise some solid points and it shows that you seriously think about such matters and thats what Holy Quran asks us to think and adopt.... In my last post i said that i will post a detailed reply but some those points i want to cover in my post have been raised by you and some other by Brother Icon so i will reply these points in separate posts.....

63

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Now coming to the first point Brother Hanibal have raised that asking for help from someone who is dead is false yet we can ask someone to pray for our forgiveness.....

Here I AGREE WITH YOU that asking for help from someone who is dead is SHIRK.... But we dont ask help from Hazrat Ali (a.s) considering him that he is DEAD... Rather we consider him that he is alive....

**To cover up this topic we have to keep some points in our minds...

  1. After Death the body of Humans get died but Soul remain alive..
  2. The reality (base) of Humans is Soul...
  3. We can contact to Souls living in Spirtual World..**

First of all i will describe my first point.... In the light of Quran it is clear that Death is not end of life of anyone rather it is the begining of a new life... Some people who thinks that After death Humans rule finishes are against the theory of Holy Quran.... In this topic we are not discussing the life after death or Life of Souls yet if you like i can give points on it also.... But to prove my statement i am quoting only two verses here among many.. Again i am using ww w.haroonyahya. com for translation of verses...**

Sora Aal e Imran Ayat No. 169-170. "Think not of those who are slain in Allah.s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those
left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve"**

The Second point i quoted here is The base of Humans is Soul..... May be you claim that Man is a combination of Body and Soul... It is true but it is Soul which is base for everything in Humans... Again to support this logic i will present here one verse of Sura e Sujda verse No 11 "Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."
It is our soul which the Angel will catch not our body....

So from the above two points it is clear that the base of us is Soul and that this Soul never dies rather it gets blessing or deblessings from Almighty Allah.....

Now the third point that Can we contact to Souls or not... For this i am quoting another verse... Sora e Zukhraf verse no 45 " And question thou our apostles whom We sent before thee; did We appoint any deities other than ((Allah)) Most Gracious, to be worshipped?"........ How can Allah ask Prophet to question from those who are dead..... Any you might also read the Salam of Allah to some Prophets in Sora Saa'faat... Can Allah Allmighty, The Creater of Knowledge send Salam on dead Bodies.....No our Souls are alive and they can be contacted.....

64

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

To answer this question that The Power of Ali (a.s) is like Allah?... I openly explain my believe that the power of Ali (a.s) is not like the power of Almighty rather it is granted to him by Allah Almighty and to come to know that how much of power He have i will quote a verse here....

Sura e Naml Ayat No 38-40

"He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"
Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."
Said one who had Some Of the knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord....."

Here a Chief of Hazrat Suleman have the power to bring something from Thousands Kilometers within less then a second then how much of Power Hazrat Ali may have....

And your other question was How Hazrat Ali a.s can be at several places at a time so my dear brother we Muslims do believe that Hazrat Izraeel (a.s) fetch our Souls from our Bodies.... And thousands people die at the same time at different places so how he manage it...... Now don say that Hazrat Izraeel is Angel and Hazrat Ali is Man because Man is superior then Angels......

65

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother Icon Sorry i couldnt reply on your post due to some urgent matters and off course load shedding problem... Will definitely post reply tomorrow Insha Allah.... Hope you will excuse me!

66

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Dear Brother,

I have reason to believe that Allah All-Mighty has created certain rules which applies to all, and he himself does not abide those rules. For example, the law of gravity will remain effective untill the final hour is called upon.

Same principal applies on the death one, the Death means END OF EXAM. The life of Human is test for him, they will be tested till there death and once the death has taken them, the exam is over and their respective role in this world is finished. Now they can be taken to some other world which can be called Aalim-ul-Ar'wah. But still it has nothing to do with the existing world and its business.

If above mentioned principal is wrong, then we have to admit that the Hinduism in general and Budhism in particular are rightful religions, as in a way they do follow what u have just mentioned.

Now discussing the aya u mentioned, if ur logic with the aya is true then, it would be OK to ask for help from all the Shu'hada, as they are alive and actively involved in worldly affairs. it will create lot more gods, same like in old greek days. Where war heros are considered as gods...

Secondly on the same note, if i recall it right, the same aya also says that they are not dead but u don't have sense to sense it... which again means, that though they are alive but, Physically alive human being cannot have access to them nor he can contact them. I don't know if it works other way around or not.

I'll reply on second point later today.

67

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother Hanibal complete your reply so that i may explain my points further

68

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother thanks for your detailed post.... Regarding my post i have cleared some points in replying to Brother Hanibal.... Now on the point you have objection and you quoted a Hadees I now will give reply to clear the difference between Dua and Worship.... Once this difference would be clear to us then many other things would also be clear to our eyes......

So to clear this view first of all we have to see that what are the meaning of Woship... To start with i want to give a base to clear this view.. *The Word Worship or In Arabic "Ibadat" or in Persian "Paristish" are very clear among all of us just like the word "Sky" and "Earth" are clear whether people may define these words or not but they know what actually they are.... *

The Word Worship is just like these words, we know the actuall meanings, its a different matter that for some people it is hard to explain the meaning of these words... *Say a lover kisses the walls of the house of beloved or may give respect to the dresses of beloved or spend lot of time and kisses the grave of beloved.... Whatever the case never in any nation or religion it is known as worship... everyone says that it is form and expression of Love... *

So the translation of Worship ""In terms of Islam, ibadah is the ultimate obedience, the ultimate submission, and the ultimate humility to God along with the ultimate love for him."" (wikipedia)

Refferencing Holy Quran Word Ibadat or to do Worship have come in three senses...
1. Worship to whom who is "Illah"
2. Worship to whom who is "Rub"
3. Worship to who is responsible for all Goddess works like granting life, Applying Death, Controling Sun & Moon and Day n Night etc etc...

For this purpose you may read The Following Ayaat... Sora Airaaf 59, 65, 73, Sora e Hood 5, 61, 84, Sora e Maayda 72 Sora e Aal e Imran 51 Sora e Mominoon 80 Sora e Inaam 61.....

Other than these three meaning there is not any other meaning of worship is there in Quran according to my knowldge...And the meaning of Shirk is that to think all these three meanings for whom who have not any capability stating in these meanings....

So you can not say this Prayer a Shirk as i have clearly stated *we dont Pray to Hazrta Ali by considering Him God rather we believe that Hazrat Ali is very respectable in the Court of Allah Almighty and can transfer our request to Allah Almighty... And Allah Himself asks us to come in the Bargaah of Allah Almighty through some waseela.... *

So i think i have made myself clear if you have any other point then please state it.....

2 Likes
69

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

The Second Part of my reply,

Dear Brother,

Thankyou for your patience,

Now talking about the combination of Body and soul, my believe is that this body is the dress of our soul, when we'll leave this world we shall remove the dress and GO BACK, to where we came from,

Again this soul may live outside this world, but, it may have no powers nor allowed to interfere in wordly affairs. Niether their is any logic of granting these souls any powers to do so. As different creation (the Angels) are created to do these tasks and they also perform all those on the order of Allah Subhan.o.tala and not on their on will.

Keeping this principal in mind, the souls either have to turn into angels ( which is not possible as per the classification of Human Soul and Angel) or they have be god. This again is against the rule of Jaza & Saza, i mean the best possible Jaza mentioned in Quran ( on numerous occasion, one of them is in Sura Rehman) is, the who ever believer and do what Allah has commanded him will be blessed with the Palaces in Jannah, where all the different kind of fruits and canals of milk and honey exists, where the sorrow and death will die.
Not a Single aya in Quran says that, the best doers will be granted with certain roles and/or will be given certian powers to perform worldly task.

I think iam able to clarify my point on the matter of death and souls.

Now on the third note, Allah does send salam to those souls, but if we read it in the context and pretext, we will find that Allah Subhan.o.tala has praised them for their efforts and good deeds for the sake of Allah, Now if u recall, Sura-e-Fatiha, We the Human Ask Allah to guide/enlight us on the path of those who are praised, here in these ayaats Allah is showing us their path.

Dear Brother, Iam not here to change anyones religion, niether i have enough knowledge to do so, i have mentioned my understanding on certain points, if you feel like, u can reply, otherwise there is no obligation on anyone

PS: please let me know if i had missed any point

70

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Just a question from shia brothers, due to curiosity (though I don't like to participate in such arguments)

The Quran calls the wives of the Prophet (saw) with the term "Ummul-Mo'mineen" (Mother of all the Mo'min)

Do you accept Hazrat Ayesha as "Ummul-Mo'mineen" (Mother of all the Mo'min) as she was a wife of the prophet (saw)

71

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother ND

"Ilah, Rub and Creator/Sustainer" taht you mentioned are the ones who "should" be worshipped. You have not cleared what "worship" is in light of Quran. I haven't looked upon this subject frankly. But it will be interesting to look up to Quran to see what "worship" means and if "Dua/Prayer" is part of worship or not.

[QUOTE]

So you can not say this Prayer a Shirk as i have clearly stated *we dont Pray to Hazrta Ali by considering Him God rather we believe that Hazrat Ali is very respectable in the Court of Allah Almighty and can transfer our request to Allah Almighty... And Allah Himself asks us to come in the Bargaah of Allah Almighty through some waseela.... *

So i think i have made myself clear if you have any other point then please state it.....

[/QUOTE]

This is a bit diffrent than what you earlier stated, which is

**
[QUOTE]
We ask help from Hazrat Ali not in the sense that Hazrat Ali grant us like Allah Almighty.... Rather we do believe that Allah has given him some powers from which He grant us...
[/QUOTE]
**

Do you beleive in both?
We will discuss further after you reply on these issue.

And i am in no hurry so don't feel pressured to respond quickly.

I wanna
72

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother Hanibal

May the blessings of Allah shower upon you...

Now i think our discussion is on such point where it should have to be clear that Souls have any sorts of power or not.. As we both agrees on that Souls are alive and eat and drink and so on..... So if it become clear that whether souls have some power to help us or not then we will be close enough to find the right answer of this discussion... So please let me compile the verses and Ahadees and Seerat e Sahaba for the regarding matter then i shall write on this topic.. But due to this extensive research it might take a day or two and i hope you would not mind it and will pray for me that i may get the rightous path...

For the time being i want to ask a question from your post... You stated that The Salams Allah Almighty has sent on Prophets are just sort of appraisal and in then you said that we ask Allah Almighty to show us the path of those who are praised by Almighty...
**
My Question is that in Sora e Fatiha the word Allah used is "Anumta Aleihim" And i am being a very ordinary student of Arabic language may translate it into "Jin ko Neimat die gai"... In Salam's Allah sent i couldnt found any context where it has given that those were the persons who got the Neimat.... And again you would agree with me that IF ANYONE ASKS US TO FOLLOW OF PATH OF SOMEONE WE WOULD ASK THAT TO WHOM WE HAVE TO FOLLOW SHOULD BE IN FRONT OF US OTHERWISE WE CANNOT FOLLOW SO TELL ME WHERE ARE THOSE PRAISED PERSON WHICH YOU CLAIMED ARE BEING PRAYED TO SHOW THEIR PATH....**

Middle-class lifestyle
73

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother there are many Ayaas to clear the meanings of Worship and i mentioned there No's and you can check them but if you order me then i will compile it for you until Tomorrow insha Allah...

If you again check it there is no difference in both statements.... You might imagine a Governor in any state... If we have to get some favour from the president then we first go to Governor and if the solution of the problem comes in his range then he may solve it himself from the permissions granted to him by the president and if the problem is beyond his authorities then atleast he can approach to President to solve the matter....

So there is not any difference in both statements.... When i said Allah has given Him powers then Hazrat Ali grant from those powers or contact Allah to grant us are both equal and there is no logical difference.... As if our younger brother ask 10 rupees from us then we give him and if he asks 10000 rupees then we approach to our parents to look after the matter.... thats the case but they knows better in which problem They can grant us or in which they cannot.....

Regarding responding quickly or with delay i do believe that if i gets died and i would not be on Right Path is worst then to get some pain and search among right and wrong... I dont want to stand in the court of Allah as someone ignorant or with wrong believes cause when we die the very first question we would be asked is "Who is your God" which is the question of believe not of Acts....

74

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother e Mun

If you have to ask a question and wants to be clear or wants a dialogue then always clearly state it... Your question can be solved and the answer is very easy but right now we are having a dialogue on a very serious topic so stay in touch when this dialogue will be over and we all will think that we have stated our best logic then we will turn towards the other topics....

But i don want you to remain unanswered i will request you to solve your curiosity and check Holy Quran for this purpose and recite what are Allah has said about wives of other prophets... Collect your material, arrange your points and when your turn comes ask the question we will look after that what actually lies in behind your question.... But dont interrupt this dialogue by just spoiling the environment....

We are having not to impose other's to change their believe (Yet someone can if he/she may be satisfied from other's believe) the purpose for this dialogue is to understand each other...

Wa'Salam

75

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue


This is a bit diffrent than what you earlier stated, which is

Do you beleive in both?
[/quote]

yess we believe in both.....

waisay in dono'n bato'n mai'n faraq kia hay?

76

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

U can take all the time it take.

I would like to correct one thing in your reply, that is, I have no information that the soul have any eating or other activities, food is required to keep the worldly dress ( Physical body) in right form, once this dress is gone, i don't think so there is any need of the food.

And if there is any food or any digestion system then, it will be totally different what we have got now.

Now Coming to your question,

I can give u an example, Sultan Salahudin, and Hazrat Khaled bin Waleed are known to be few of th greatest General in the war history, their war tactics and theories are still used in some war colleges, Now they are not in front, niether they are alive to teach their theories and tactics, yet there are Generals who took guidance from them, and that is by looking into their art of war.

Same applies here, Quran is not just a story book which says some story of old times, infact in Quran it is said that ( chapter 11) "more are there which will call it "asateer ul-awaleen". Quran have mentioned Aad & Samood and Nation of Shoaib (AS) and Mosa and Haroon, if u try to get the essence, it is evident that Quran is telling us, that 1) do not expect the Path of Allah is easy, See the great trouble Ibrahim (AS), Mousa (AS), Zakaria (AS) has gone through and yet they have not let go the path of Allah, they remained in the rightous direction and amoung their followers who were true belivers suffered from the same, but never let go the Path of Allah. So for us, the Muslims this is the guideline, there era was different, ours are different, yet the enemy was same in those times, and it is same in these time, tactics of these enemies have evolved with the passage of time, but the one who will be successful in the Test will be the one who can still continue in the direction/path Allah have given us.

If one read quran for the guidance he will get, this is the promise of Allah all mighty, And for sure he will not abide his promise.

77

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

DEAR BROTHER I believe the following information will be enough for you to understand the time of saying YA ALI MADAD...

In times of need Umar sought the help of the descendants of the Prophet, invoked Allah through them, and his wishes were fulfilled. I refer to only two such occasions. Ibn Hajar Makki writes in his Sawa'iq-e-Muhriqa, after verse 14 (from The History of Damascus) that in the 17th year of the Hijra people prayed for rain but to no effect. Caliph Umar said that he would pray for rain the next day through the means of approach to Allah. Next morning he went to Abbas, the uncle of the Prophet and said: "Come out so that we may invoke Allah through you for rain."

Abbas asked Umar to sit for some time so that the means of approach to Allah could be provided. The Bani Hashim (Ahle Bait) were then informed. Abbas then came out with Ali, Imam Hasan, and Imam Husain. Other Bani Hashim were behind them. Abbas asked Umar that no one else be added to their group. Then they went to the place of prayers where Abbas raised his hands for prayers and said: "O Allah, you created us, and you know about our actions. O Allah, as you were kind to us in the beginning, so be kind to us in the end." Jabir says that their prayers had not ended when clouds appeared and it began to rain. Before they could reach their homes, they were drenched.

MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU.

The dark side of Dubai.......
78

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

What you say about the first Ayat we discussed about the Souls that "They Get food from Allah......." IF they gets food but couldnt eat then for which good the food is being provided to them.......

[quote]

I can give u an example, Sultan Salahudin, and Hazrat Khaled bin Waleed are known to be few of th greatest General in the war history, their war tactics and theories are still used in some war colleges, Now they are not in front, niether they are alive to teach their theories and tactics, yet there are Generals who took guidance from them, and that is by looking into their art of war.

Same applies here, Quran is not just a story book which says some story of old times, infact in Quran it is said that ( chapter 11) "more are there which will call it "asateer ul-awaleen". Quran have mentioned Aad & Samood and Nation of Shoaib (AS) and Mosa and Haroon, if u try to get the essence, it is evident that Quran is telling us, that 1) do not expect the Path of Allah is easy, See the great trouble Ibrahim (AS), Mousa (AS), Zakaria (AS) has gone through and yet they have not let go the path of Allah, they remained in the rightous direction and amoung their followers who were true belivers suffered from the same, but never let go the Path of Allah. So for us, the Muslims this is the guideline, there era was different, ours are different, yet the enemy was same in those times, and it is same in these time, tactics of these enemies have evolved with the passage of time, but the one who will be successful in the Test will be the one who can still continue in the direction/path Allah have given us.

If one read quran for the guidance he will get, this is the promise of Allah all mighty, And for sure he will not abide his promise.
[/quote]

The things i want to mention were that In Salam's Allah not only praised them like that we Salute against the snap of Quaid e Azam.... Its the other case Allah's Salam is not like salute.... Salam means Salamati and i dont think Allah The most knowledgeable can use a word having the apposing meaning or directing us to some false path......

79

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

1) Here i need to clear one more thing,

In this world, eating/food is one of the necessary requirements, i.e. if one do not provide the body with proper food then the body will detoriate and eventully die.
Whereas, Food in the Jannah and/or so-called Aalim-ul-Arwaah is not obligatory rather it isupon the will of the soul.i.e., if they wish to have something they will have it ( iam talking about good souls).
If one look into it and think about it there is big different in the two.

2) When we mentioned them, we also send Salam on them, so u send Salam to some one who has done some great things or offered great sacrifice for the sake of Allah. So if i take ur meaning still the things have not changed much, that is, Allah is telling us see, Me the Master of the universe also send Salam to those who took my path despite all the troubles they have faced. And ofcourse with this praising and Salam ( what ever u call them) they are the one who are successfull, they are the one who are remembered with respect. They are the one who's path should be followed, they are the one whom Allah all Mighty is referring to, and coming back to the topic, Allah had send Salam to them, but never ever, Allah had said that, in return of their remarkable achievments, i have made them my Assistance and/or given them certian powers to do some efforts in the world. They were all Prophets, and the Rank of all the Prophets is much higher than a Sahabi and/or Imam, So How Allah Subhan.o.ta'la will neglect all the prophets he is sending Salam to, and give the power to assist him in the worldly matters to a Sahabi?
I guess it is time when one should seek answer for this simple matter, in logical way, keeping Quran as the standard of the Logic.

80

Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother ND,

To me there was some difference between the two. As some peopel beleive that when they call upon an Imam or a Wali, he merely intercedes on their behalf to Allah. While others beleive that Imams/Walis have been given powers ("Tasarruf") over universe and when they are called, they exercise their power over the universe and grant what is being asked from them. I understand that some shia scholars term this as "Wilayat-e-Takwini".

However, after the example you gave i can understand how you reconcile the tow statements and the matter is cleared in terms of what you beleive.

[quote]
Brother there are many Ayaas to clear the meanings of Worship and i mentioned there No's and you can check them but if you order me then i will compile it for you until Tomorrow insha Allah...

[/quote]

To avoid the discussion moving to too many tangents, lets focus on one thing at a time. The issue of what is "worship" is an important part of our dialogue. And as i confessed i haven't looked much into it. I'll go throuhg the aayas you mentioned in your post.

Surah Aaraaf: 59, 65: Both command to worship Allah but do not go in detail of what "worship" is.
73:
Also commands to worship Allah but also mentions that she-camle is sign of Allah and let her graze and do no harm.

I guess, this tells us that obeying Allah's command is part of "worship".

*Surah Hud *
**5: **Did not understand how it is related to worship.
**61: **Again commands to worship Allah.
**84: **Worship Allah and do not give short measure or weigh. This again is a specific order, is it related to worship? may well be. Again one can extrapolate that being honest is part of "worship" to ALLAH.

Surah Maida 72
Says calling Jesus, God, is Kufr. And again commands to worship Allah.

**Ale-Imran 51 **Again commands to worship Allah.

Mominoon 80 and Inaam 61, could not understand how tehy are related to worship.

I would like to draw yourattention to few verses that hint at "Dua" or supplication being a form of worship.

Aaraf 55 :Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for God loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds.

Aaraf 29: **Say: My Lord enjoineth justice. And set your faces upright (toward Him) at every place of worship and call upon Him,** making religion pure for Him (only).

Ghafir 60: **And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer):** but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"

Albaqara 186: When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way

These verses show that supplication or prayer is part of worship and also reconcile with Hadith that i posted. Tats why we beleive that calling upon someone for help is part of worship and should be reserved for Allah only.