Shia Sunni Dialogue

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Nadeem Zaidi

I think the dialogue should be limited between two of us. I cannot respond to every Tom, Dick and Harry that are often invited from other sites to come and "help".
And as i have already said no copy, like healty mind has just done.

Thirdly, one should understand that reason for"dialogue" is not to win an argument or to win a "convert". (Personally i do not think that i can make you a sunni nor can you make me a shia, trust me i have read most of shia arguments against sunnis). If by dialogue we can understand why we hold certain beleifs and what are the reasons behind those beleifs, then thats worth something.

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

By the way Zaidi, i feel that you do seem have an attitude of "i know i am right". If my impression is true then plz spare, there are plenty of shia/sunni "argument" sites which put up the recycled versions of different articles again and again. You can always go there. If on the other hand you are willing to take it as an understang the other side of thing, then its okay.
Let me know then i'll write what is my take on Ya Ali Madad.

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brothers n Sisters (if any)

Sorry for delaying in posting the answer. But before actually replying i would request all persons who want to participate in this dialogue to please take the OATH that they would not took this dialogue in personal and would try to learn.. May be other side would have some logical and solid points so that we should have to follow them rather than saying "MAIN NA MANOON"

**To cover up the answer of this question we would have to see this question in some wider perspect...

First of all we will see that whether asking for help from someone other then Allah is right or wrong.. So the argue of whether we can ask from help from someone is quite simple... We see in our daily life that we ask for help from our Brothers, Sisters, Friends, Father, Mother and other acquaintances.... We have so many limitations to get help from others...

If someone here claims that every problem can be solved by praying to Allah then i will insist him/her to ask a glass of water from Allah or ask for help from Allah to teach you Arabic, French, German or any other language in one swift motion..... But this is not possible, we have to follow a complete pattern to get learned...

This kind of help may have many forms.. For example a baby ask for food from parents, a student ask for knowledge from Teachers etc etc..... But in such case the asking of help would be valid if the other person have enough power to solve the problems...**

If you do agree with these points then please do let me know so that we may continue finding the answer of this problem

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Hairat hay keh aap ko bhi kisi doosri site say aa kar mairi madad karta hooa koi nazar aa raha hay.....

or yaqeenan aap ka yeh eeman bhi hay keh shaitan gumrahi ka waseela banta hay......

kia Allah paak nay sirf gumrahi ka hi waseela shaitan ko rakha hay or **Kia Allah ki madad -o- hidayat -o- amaan ka koi waseela nahee'n hay?**

Ham Ali a.s., ko Allah ki Madad, Amaan or Hidayat ka waseela samajhtay or maan'tay hai'n.

jis halaf par rehtay hooay baat cheet ka aaghaaz hooa hay woh halaf in tamam nukaat ko cover karta hay jin ka aap nay tazkirah kia, Insha Allah hamari taraf say yeh dialogue (jaisa keh NetDevil nay bhi quote kia) "MAI'N NA MANOO'N" ki zidd say paak rahay ga.

agar aap kay paas kisi bhi baat ki koi daleel kisi hawalay kay sath hay or uss hawalay ka quran-o-sunnat say bhi koi takraow nahee'n to bila shubah ham shia hi uss waqt hai'n keh jab ham uss baat ko tasleem karai'n gay.

jahaa'n tak ta'alluq hay poochay hooay sawal or us kay jawab ka to iss silsilay mai'n sawal kay forann baad NetDevil ka post mulahizah karai'n..

or yehee wajah thee keh unn ki taraf say hi jawab ka bhi intazar karna para. or iss sawal kay silsilay mai'n aap ki tasalli karwana NetDevil kay hi zimmay bhi hay....

bahar haal NetDevil ho'n ya healtymind, NadeemZaidi ho ya Iconoclast, mandarjah baala halaf kay baad abhi tak kam az kam yeh sub hasool-e-ilm or ilm ki baat phailanay kay liay naa keh sirf apni or apnay maslak ki jeet kay liay, haq bolnay or haq ko tasleem karnay par paband hai'n.

or jahaa'n tak dialogue kay sirf aap kay or mairay darmian rehnay ka ta'alluq hay to iss silsilay mai'n yehee kahoo'n ga keh jis tarah aap or ham aik halaf kay baad aik doosray say baat cheet ka aaghaz kar chukay hai'n bilkul is hi tarah koi bhi halaf kay baad dialogue mai'n shamil honay ka haq rakhta hay. haa'n aisay kisi bhi shakhs ki baat ko bila taraddud koi ahmiyat naa dai'n or radd kartay hooay koi jawab bhi naa dai'n, jo half utha kar ya halaf kay baghair koi bhi bay sar-o-paa baat karay yaa jis ki baat mai'n halaf say hi in'haraf mojood ho.

iss say pehlay healtymind nay bhi "tawassul" par likha or baad azaa'n NetDevil nay bhi "waseela" hi bayan kia, or kisi hadd tak "kuch waseelay" aap ki apni nazro'n mai'n bhi hai'n....

phir sirf Allah ki taraf say mo'ayyan waseelo'n par hi shak ya aitaraz kioo'n?

or kuch log yehee baat kuch iss tarah bhi kehtay hai'n jaisay....

saying "Ya Ali madad" after the death of Ali b abitalib[as] .......

na janay keh aisay log quran par eeman rakhnay ka dawa karnay kay sath sath kis munh say shaheed ko murdah bhi qarar daitay hai'n?......

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

G zer01, bilkul durust faramay aap nay.......

sawal agar banta hay to woh yehee keh "Kia Islam Mai'n Tawassul Jaaez Hay?.....

la'raib... :)

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Alaikassalam wr, wb.

quran say koi nahee'n bhagta healtymind brother....

sunni hazrat bhi nahee'n, koi bhi musalman nahee'n....

magar masala yeh hay keh quran say in ko dia hi itna gaya hay keh jis kay sath yeh unn mai'n hi shamil rahai'n.

sirf tilawat ki hadd tak quran ko rok dia gaya hay or woh bhi kisi kisi ko hi naseeb hoti hay.

yehee wajah hay keh kisi kisi waqt koi "musalman" aisi baat bhi keh daita hay jo bay shakkk khilaf-e-quran o sunnat hoti hay magar uss kay nazdeek wohi quran o sunnat ka hukam hota hay. or sub say bari daleel "buzurgan ka amal" qarar paati hay.

Bila shubah tehqeeq, ilm-o-aagahi ka sabab banti hay, or woh jin kay naseeb mai'n "Rabb-ul-izzat" nay hidayat rakhi ho, haq ka daman nahee'n chortay woh agar kahee'n ghalat bhi ho'n to ilm-o-aagahi kay baad haq ko apnanay mai'n koi daqeeqah zaaya nahee'n kartay or bila shubah jannat hay bhi un kay liay hi....

or yeh bhi Allah hi behtar janta hay keh aap sub ka yeh dialogue kis kis kay liay "paigham-e-haq" ka waseela banta hay or kis kis kay liay gumrahi ka.

or "paigham-e-haq" yaqeenan haq ko talaash karnay walo'n kay liay hi hota hay, sirf apni baat ko haq samajhnay walo'n kay liay nahee'n.

Allah paak ham sub ko hidayat ataa farmaay, Elahi ameen.

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Asking help from Allah and asking help from people around us like brothers/sister etc is very different. Let me try to explain.

Most of our actions in day to day life can be divided into two categories.

Category1: These form the overwhelming bulk of our actions and are based on rational & practical understanding of how things work in this world. Like you get up in the mroning and take your breakfast. You do that for you know that it will give you the energy you need. You start your car for it will take you to your workplace. You work for it pays you. etc. etc. All these actions have one "reason" behind them that they yield a particular outcome that is reproducible and identifiable. Like pressing the swtich, turns on the light bulb, drinking water quenches thirst etc. All these are actions that yield the same results every time we do (unless another force of nature comes in the way).
When you ask help from your brotehr and sister it is the same "principle". You ask him to help you pick a box, you are counting on the his power. You ask help from government for your project, coz it can give you money. etc. By asking from these people you rely on same principles of physics that we see operating in nature which are reproducible, measureable and identifiable and are not abstract like "prayer".

**Category2: **These are the actions based upon "religious" beleifs. These actions DO NOT yield a demonstrable, measurable, identifiable and most importantly reporducible results. Like you get up in the morning and pray to Allah for a salary raise. Now whether you get a raise or you do not cannot be "proven" to have happened as a result of the prayer. Similarly, you give "Sadaqa" and you believe that this will have "barkat" in your money, again this is a phenomenon that is not measurable or reproducible.

Now the prayer also belongs to category 2. You cannot equate the actions of category 1 with 2. You cannot equate asking your brother with asking Allah. As you yourself have pointed out

[quote]

*If someone here claims that every problem can be solved by praying to Allah then i will insist him/her to ask a glass of water from Allah or ask for help from Allah to teach you Arabic, French, German or any other language in one swift motion..... But this is not possible, we have to follow a complete pattern to get learned...*

[/quote]

These are actions of category 1.

We will ofcourse not ask Allah for glass of water. Similarly you will not ask Hz Ali ra for glass of water, you will not ask Hz Ali ra to teach you English. You will never ask him for anything that i mentioned in actions of category 1.

You will only ask him for things that you ask Allah! or that people ask their dieties, that a christian asks Jesus, that a Hindu asks Ram, that a some sunnis ask from Pir Abdul Qadir Jeelani and that i ask Allah alone.

So i hope i have explained that why you cannot consider askign Allah and asking your brother/sister the same thing.

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Salam Alikum Brother:

As we all know, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) was the first male Muslim convert (Hazrat Khatija being the first female believer) and he took up the responsibility to propagate the Holy Message delivered to our beloved Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) at a tender age. He was only twelve when Prophet Muhammad asked who would come to his help with this work at a family gathering at Abd-al Muttalib’s (their grandfather) house. Hazrat Ali (a.s.) was the only one who stood up and declared his allegiance and offered full support for Prophet Muhammad’s (s.a.s.) mission. The Prophet blessed Imam Ali (a.s.) and said, "From now on you are my helper, my Wazir and the Khalif after me on earth

Another version:

**In the Name of Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful The Power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish. His wealth and gains will not save him. He shall roast at a flaming fire, and his wife, the carrier of firewood Will have upon her neck a rope of palm-fibre. The Holy Quran.Chapter 111 Verses 1-5 **
Then the crowd dispersed and the Prophet (pbuh) was left alone. A few days later the Prophet (pbuh) tried again. A feast was prepared in his house for all of his uncles. After the meal he spoke to them and said, ‘O sons of Abd al-Muttalib! I know of no Arab who has come to his people with a better message than mine. I have brought you the best news for this life and the next. **Allah has ordered me (pbuh) to call you to Him. So which of you will help me?’ All the men kept silent. Then Ali, his cousin, jumped up and said: ‘O Prophet of Allah! I will help you.’ Then the men all got up and left, laughing as they went because only one young boy had agreed to help the Prophet (pbuh). **

THIS WAS THE TIME FROM WHERE Truthfulls start : YA ALI MADAD:

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Nadeem Zaidi

One cannot have a meaningful dialogue unless one acknowledges that the other side may be right. Secondly, dialogue is a way of understanding the other sides point of view and not necessarily converting him, i am not here to make you a sunni but to explain to you why i beleive in what i beleive and may be you can understand that, may be you won;t be able to.

I neither have time nor energy to respond to evryone who jumps in by taking an oath. I am certainly not respong to copy pasters and to some peopel who have been posting extremely insulting remarks about our beleifs. Therefore i think it shud be limited to maximum 4-5 people.

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

killing some one is a murder.
Killing some one in the name of Ali is still murder.

Asking some one but allah is shirk.
Asking ali for help is still shirk.

Allah him self said clearly "the ones you ask for help ,instead of allah, will be present as you army on judgment day. and you could see if thay could help you in any way."

I regard hazret ali as the one of the most-wise man ever lived. But still a "MAN"

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

100% agreed....

you may nominate some speakers from your end as per your choice and i will like to nominate NetDevil for the dialogue from my end.....

You may ignore other texts now....

Pakistan military ordered to return fire if attacked by Nato forces
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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

ok so clear 1 thing for me all of u

it is in one tradition that prophet (pbuh) called the names of his close relatives like fatima ra his own daughter and said oh fatima save sumthing for urself for judjement day cuz i will be no help for u
i am allah's opostle but still i dont know how i will be treated

how u see that????

Gota Jewellery in Lahore
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I am signing out as iconoclast and nadeem zaidi have a discussion going
bro healthymind I think u misunderstand my question .....let me rephrase it
" is there any historical evidence that prophet or early muslims [sahaba or tabaeen] used to say ya ali madad "
what u have told me is your reasoning of using this expression

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Very Nice reply Icon....

You Divided asking for help in two categories.... One sort of help is that which we can have from our acquaitances, friends, relatives and the other is which we have to ask from Allah..

In the first category i think we both do believe that its quite possible and have no objection... But in category two you claimed that Asking for help from Hazrat Ali is not valid as we should have to ask from Almighty direct...

For the time being i am not in a position to write a detailed reply which i will post here tomorrow insha Allah but right now i am asking a simple question and will try to analyse this question....

You said that asking help from people like us is not the same as the one we ask from Allah Almighty.... My question is that k "If you with some baby go in to a garden and the baby need for any fruit hanging on the tree... Then whether the child will ask from the Tree that "Uncle Tree give me some fruit from so many which are hanging around or will ask from Allah Almighty to let him have the fruit".. The answer is No the baby will ask from you to pick the fruit and give it to him.....

Here you might say that this question belongs to category one as this can be reproducible and is not like the prayer as i prayer we are not definite that whether we can have what we want or not....

**But look if we are asking something from Allah and we are not sure that whether we may get or not what we want then the purpose of "Dua" will dye..... As the basic thing in Prayer is that ultimately we would get what we want whether later or sooner..... So it is definite... Prayer is not a duty which you said that we ask from Allah for raise in salary..... If so then why should i ask from Allah when i am not sure i can get a raise or not, rather i should ask from my boss or some authority, i may have better chances to get a raise in salary....

What i believe is that Prayers are "Asking for Help in those matters which we cannot solve ourself whther they are measureable or not".... We ask help from Hazrat Ali not in the sense that Hazrat Ali grant us like Allah Almighty.... Rather we do believe that Allah has given him some powers from which He grant us... And this help is just like we ask from our superiors, elders or from those people who can do what we cannot......**

In my next post i will put some refferences to support my believe... Until then you can analyse what i have quoted yet.......

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[quote]

*What i believe is that Prayers are "Asking for Help in those matters which we cannot solve ourself whther they are measureable or not".... We ask help from Hazrat Ali not in the sense that Hazrat Ali grant us like Allah Almighty.... Rather we do believe that Allah has given him some powers from which He grant us... And this help is just like we ask from our superiors, elders or from those people who can do what we cannot.....*
[/quote]

Iam Not Accussing anyone of shirk or anything this sort, but this is almost same kind of believe Hindus have, and the same was believed by Mushrikheen-e-Arab. I'll certainly look forward to detail reply on the logic of this believe.

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**Brother Hanibal what would you say then in the light of these Holy Verses

** They said: "O our father! ask for us forgiveness for our sins, for we were truly at fault." He said: "Soon will I ask my Lord for forgiveness for you: for he is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
**
**(Sura e Yousaf: Ayat No. 97-98)

**If Asking for help and asking someone to pray is Shirk then Whether Hazrat Yaqoob was doing shirk (Nauz o Billah) or His sons were doing such sort of things.....

**PS: This translation of verses has been taken from the translation of htt p:/ /www .harunyahya.com and according to my knowledge is correct

Do people mistake you for another race?
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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Brother we are having dialogue on a serious topic so please concentrate on that question and when if you find out the answer or share our believes with each other then you can put another question?

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Dear Brother,
The Verses are right, one should keep in mind that this dialogue took place between two living beings. Hazrat Yousaf (AS) and Hazrat Yaqoob (AS) both were alive at that time, and were having a face to face conversation.

Secondly, Asking for forgivness from Allah, and asking a brother to pray to Allah for ur forgiveness is totally different thing, I can ask my Mom my friends to ask mercy of Allah for me. But it would be shirk if i'll call a dead one or i believe that Allah had granted some power to some one to answer the needs of living people.

Here one more question can be raised. Given ur believe is true, How many People Hazrat Ali (RZA) can help at single moment. Is it Like Allah's power, Unlimited and un measureable, or does it have certain limitations.

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exactly!

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Dear ND

My point is that when we ask for things in category one we are bringing "forces of nature" into play. These forces of nature work for everyone regardless of their beleif. And we have learned to use these forces by experiencing their effects all around us. Like fire burns, water puts out fire etc So when we ask help from people, we always do for things in category 1, what we are actually doing is calling upon these forces of nature to come into play. Or utilising the principles of physics. This is domain of science.

On the other hand whenever we "pray" or seek help from someone outside our living world its "always" about things in category 2, things where principles of physics or science DO NOT apply. Where we call upon "super natural" powers. This is domain of beleif.

All of us have learned not to mix the two domains. Hence we never ask Allah to fetch us a glass of water. Thats why i wrote

"You will only ask Ali ra what a christian asks Jesus, what a Hindu asks Ram, what a sun worshipper asks sun etc"

Thats why prayer is considered a form of worship, bcoz, it signifies the power of a diety that he exercises over us. There is a Hadith

Dua is essence of worship (Tirmidhi)

**
[QUOTE]
What i believe is that Prayers are "Asking for Help in those matters which we cannot solve ourself whther they are measureable or not".... We ask help from Hazrat Ali not in the sense that Hazrat Ali grant us like Allah Almighty.... Rather we do believe that Allah has given him some powers from which He grant us... And this help is just like we ask from our superiors, elders or from those people who can do what we cannot......

[/QUOTE]
**

I will disagree with the underlined part of your text. As i mentioned above you will not ask Ali ra for things in category 1.

I do understand your point of view for the later part. Rather i am glad and thankful that you stated it clearly. I'll look forward to your next post.