Shia Sunni Dialogue

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Me Also take the OATH again.

And bhaiyya Icon hum saarey hi mukhtalif musrofiyat ka shikaar hein but we will try to give time to this as much as we can. I am writing a brief introductory reply on the topic and will post it by tomorrow night Insha Allah..

Keep Remembering in Prayers

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mai'n bhi is halaf "oath" ko phir say dohrata hoo'n

agreed ...... :biggthumb

Ufone Mobile ke users.......
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and u all have to take a oath NO ROMAN URDU ...

Ufone Mobile ke users.......
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^LOL thats right.

By the way did brother Das Reich had a change of heart, i thought you follow Ithna Ashriya Fiqha.

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^lol ...although I did thought about it for sometime, but their exaggerrations and blanket hatred of all sahaba repelled me
but I always have had little sympathy for enemies of the fourth caliph , and little respect for third caliph's actions while in office.And if u read my signature i am still very much a "political" shia and that I will remain.
at that time forum was overflowing with blissfully ignorant nasibis like lajawab so u had to use rafidha arguments sometime to counter them

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hmmm ....thats not enough information to classify you ....get to the "real "details

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Sounds like me story :D

;) Choose A Profession 4 Above Person ;)
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mairi majboori hay keh mairi das'taras english par amoomi say bhi shaed kam sitah ki hay, ho sakta hay keh kisi waqt aap ko apni baat ponhchaa hi na sakoo'n iss liay or iss liay bhi keh mairi roman urdu ko hi parh kar aap yahaa'n tak aay hai'n matlab (mushkil say sahi magar) parhi jaati hay, isay bardasht kar lai'n.

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Re: Shia Sunni Dialogue

Mr. Das Reich,

sub say pehli baat to yeh keh aap nay khud abhi tak oath nahee'n dia.

doosri baat yeh keh aik topic jo keh select bhi aap ka hi kia hooa hay uss par koi baat abhi shuru bhi nahee'n hoo'e or aap sahabah ka topic lay kar tayyar baithay hai'n.

aap sub say pehlay "oath" dai'n or phir koi topic phir say final kar lai'n, Sahabah r.a., ka hi topic sahi.

or kisi bhi jaari topic mai'n doosri kisi bhi baat say guraiz bhi karai'n.

lolzzz...., political shia ........

aray bhai koi bhi Ali a.s., ka shia ho ga yaa nahee'n ho ga, yeh political shia kia hota hay?

haa'n Ali a.s., kay shio'n kay muqablay par agar koi tha to woh "shian-e-moavia" thay agar aap ki "political shia" say murad shian-e-moavia hi hay to woh aik alag baat hay, or aisi soorat mai'n aap yaqeenan sachchay bhi ho'n gay.

Happy Birthday Ehsan Bhai :)
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sub say pehlay oath, phir dialogue..... shukriah.

or agar oath kay words par etaraz hay to woh aap bayan kar saktay hai'n.

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^ I was explaining to bro Iconoclast what my views are , that does not count
go back to question 1 on "ya ali madad"

"political shia" i use to diffrentiate from present day 12er shia doctrine which is a mixture of mainstream islamic doctrine of heretical ghulat beliefs of extinct shia sects.
so as a "political shia" I believe that Ali was best suited to be the first caliph on accounts of his merits, services to islam and kinship to prophet all three criterea by which contemporary arabs judged leadership] but there is no evidence to suggest from either his actions or his followers that his appointment was divine.Nor do I believe in the semi-divine nature of imamate as explained in fiqah jaffaria.

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Originally Posted by NetDevilall the participants should take oath that they will not take this dialogue in personal and would try to learn the reallity not to prove them best and would accept the facts...jis halaf ko ham aapas mai'n baat cheet ki bunyad bana kar baat karnay jaa rahay hai'n aap uss ka to tazkirah kar hi nahee'n rahay,

or jo kar rahay hai'n woh yeh hay keh aik martabah topic define kar kay "explaining of views" kay naam par kabhi sahabah ka tazkirah kar rahay hai'n, or kabhi aap Aa'emmah a.s., ka tazkirah shuru kar daitay hai'n, or kahee'n baghair kisi baat cheet kay "heretical ghulat beliefs of extinct shia sects." likh kar apna faislah bhi suna rahay hai'n.

come into the dialogue....
start from oath and then hold at one topic and do not run every where at once.

do not avoide, come towards oath.... or explain the reason of avoiding the oath.

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^ I said lets start with "ya ali madad" if u keep on quoting my previous posts i have to reply
so leave them aside and lets get started

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^ yeah nadeem zaidi bhai u dont answer the question u've been asked

instead aap duniya jahaan ki philosophies jhaarna shuroo kar detey hain

so plz try to answer the question ppl ask

and with sum solid reasons:)

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I guess, this is the key.. 34 Posts, Das Reich had posted his questions... but no answers... i have to get some more coffee

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IMHO, "Is Tawassul is allowed in Islam?" should be the question.

it will not only cover the question asked but readers will also get a chance to know the sunni perspective on this matter.

wasisay bhee. the question asked already been discussed several times in the very same forum with out any conclusion. So whats the point asking it again and again?

aur OP ka maqsad to dono atraaf kay aqaeed ko samnay laanay ka tha. kion Zaidi sahib?? :)

BTW Brother Das Reich, which fiqah do you follow?

Need a little help regarding friendship:)
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thori say kaam nahee'n chalay ga brother **
**Naa to Des Reich nay halaf uthana hay naa hi un ko jawab milna hay. :)

abhi tak sirf Iconoclast, Net Devil or is adnaa say talib e ilm nay hi oath dia hay un ko to shaed itni jaldi nahee'n jitni aap sub ko nazar aati hay.

fil haal iss silsilay mai'n aap sub ko yeh hee kahoo'n ga keh

Yaa Allah Madad, Hamara Eeman Hay.
Yaa Rasool Allah s.a.w.a.w., Madad, Hamari Jaan Hay.
Or **
**Ya Ali a.s., Madad, Hamari Pehchan Hay.

agar kisi ko bhi Ali a.s., say madad maangnay par etaraz hay to woh kisi hawalay kay sath apna etaraz zaroor bayan kar sakta hay, magar oath kay baad.

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Salam alikum:

May Allah Bless all of us: But let me explain the end of this discussion , that " those who oppose the Fiqh Jaffariya (Atha ashari) beliefs will run away due fact and proofs from QURAN MAJEED. Inshall Allah.

I will be the first to take oat among you.
ALLAH HAFIZ

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Salam Alikum: YA ALI MADAD.

First of all let me qoute that what is TAWASUL,

The lexical meaning of tawassul is 'nearness' or a 'means' through which to reach a certain goal (see Lisan al-'Arab, Asas al-Balaghah and Tartib al-Qamus al-Muhit for meaning of wasala) For instance, when it is said wa wassala ila Allah, it means to perform a certain act for gaining proximity to God. Accordingly wasil here means being 'desirous of God'. According to the prominent Sunni scholar, Sayyid Muhammad Alusi al-Baghdadi, wasilah is a means of imploring in order to gain nearness to God through good deeds and abstaining from sins. For example when it is said "wasala ila kadha," it means a thing through which nearness is gained.
AlKhider had sought to 'prove' the illegitimacy of this practice, by citing an ayah of the Qur'an:
Yet such a person repeats the following words of God in his prayer (sala't) at least seventeen times a day: "Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek." Chapter I (Surat Al-Fa'tiha)

"Sayyida Fatima Zahra referred to the meaning of this verse in the presence of the Muhajirs and Ansars, while delivering her address in connection with the usurpation of her estate of Fadak, in these words:

"I praise Allah for Whose Dignity and Light the residents of the skies and the earth seek means of approach towards Him. Amoung His creation we are the means of approach."
Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, Sharhe Nahju'l Balagha, Volume IV, page 79

"A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)."
**Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5955 *
*
first mention Quranic verses that legitimize tawassul.
**"Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by his permission" (2:255); "Surely your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firmly established on the throne, regulating the affair; there is no intercessor except after His Permission."
Notice the words "but" and "except" in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam. There are many more verses in the same context that explain the legitimacy of tawassul.

  1. "On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with" (20:109)

  2. "And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits" (34:23)

  3. "And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses" (53:26)

  4. "...And they do not intercede except for him whom He approve..." (21:28)

  5. "And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)" (43:86)
    The above verses only touch on the mere fact of intercession in Islam. However a verse in Chapter Nisaa', becomes more specific about the act of tawassal. In Chapter Nisaa' Allah explains:

"We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful" (4:64)".

Here it has been made clear that the presence of the Prophet of Allah (SWT) has been a way for the people to use as a means of approach in asking forgiveness.

The above mentioned verses and many other ayats/verses in Quran encourage the practice of tawassul, but only if its to the right people and to the chosen people by Allah (SWT).

Al Khider attacked the Shi'a by stating that:

Ansar.org states:They appeal for help from the aforementioned relatives of the Prophet (PBUH) to assist them obtain their needs, or to help them remove lessen whatever overburdens them.

If seeking the help to ease one's burden is reprehensible in the eyes of Al Khider then we would suggest that he take a closer look at the following replies:

Reply One - Prophet Musa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (s) both prayed for helpers to ease their burdens

Right from the beginning of his mission Musa (as) prayed as follows:

"Musa said: O Allah! Assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Haroon. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint... (Allah) said: "We granted your requests, O Musa" (The Qur'an 20:29-36)

Now here Musa (as) is asking for help, not from Allah (swt) alone but from his brother as well. He is NOT turning to Allah (swt) exclusively for help he is asking help from another human as well, is this an act of shirk?

Interestingly Suyuti in his commentary of the above verse sites the following tradition:

"When this verse descended, The Prophet (s) was on a mountain, straight after it's descent, The Prophet (s) prayed to Allah, ?Oh Allah! Through my brother Ali, ease the burden on my back', and Allah accepted this prayer"
Tafsir Durre Manthur, by Jaladin Suyuti, Vol 4 p 295

Why is Rasulullah (s) not asking Allah (swt) for help? Would Al Khider not assert that calling on others for help is Shirk? Yet here Rasulullah (s) is asking Allah (swt) that Ali (as) be made his helper. This being the case is it not Sunnah to seek help from Imam Ali (as)? Whose words should we deem to be more important, those of all Khider or those of Rasulullah (s)?

Reply Reply Two - The Bani Israil turned to Prophet Musa (as) for help

In Surah Araf we read as follows:

"We divided them into twelve tribes or nations. We directed Moses by inspiration, when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: "Strike the rock with thy staff": out of it there gushed forth twelve springs: Each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds, and sent down to them manna and quails, (saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for you": (but they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls (The Holy Qur'an 7:160)".

Here the tribe of Bani Israil were thirsty, rather than seek Allah (swt) for sustenance they turned to Hadhrath Musa (as) to answer their prayers. Now if seeking the aid of another is Shirk then surely Musa (as) would have condemned them and told them to pray to Allah (swt), but he did not. Here the 'rod' acted as a Wasila, Allah (swt) could have sent down rain from the skies, and yet Allah (swt) instructed Musa (as) to strike the rod on the rock. The Bani Israil turned to Musa (as) and it was through him (as) that Allah (swt) answered their prayers.

Reply Three - Prophet Sulayman (as) sought the help of the people not Allah (swt)

And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:

**38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

  1. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

  2. Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !" **

So here we learn:

  1. Prophet Sulayman (as) asked for the throne of Bilkis to be brought to him

  2. He (as) did not pray to Allah (swt) he asked for the help from his supporters

  3. A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.
    Now clearly a Prophet (as) has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah (swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman (as) seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?

Now, if a Prophet (as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can't I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur'an, or from Maula Ali (as) who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:

"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali (as):

"Ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain"
History of the Khailfa's who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

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^ bro I know all this, my simple question is
when did shias started saying "Ya Ali madad" after the death of Ali b abitalib[as] ? just a historical question , not a theological question about the basis of tawwasul.Refer to my previous posts