Most of the historical facts were recorded by yazeeds own men, for gloating over 'victory'. Other statements were from obsevers who werent invloved on either side, but mainly duped into thinking the Imam (as) were merely rebels. The survivors of kerbala, i.e. Bibi Zainab (as) and Imam Sajjad (as), the biggest and most authentic witnesses, themselves told the events again and again and that was the point when azadari actually started.
True indo-pak zakirs may exaggerate the event, and that is well known amongst most shias. It is also the reason there is always a rift between the aalims and the zakirs, the latter being known more for their stage drama than thier factual knowledge. They generally seen as token piece who whip up audience emotions, and cater generally for the larger uneducated audience, as opposed to the serious alims whose lecture probably go right over thier heads.
The alims however are are the main authorities and are generally taken more seriously.
Thank you for admitting that most of the Shias fall in the category of uneducated masses who are whipped up in emotions over the exaggerated tales. There is also a faction who tries to explain what the martyrs may have been thinking at the time of the battle or right before their death. These kind of tales are repeated over and over and over again until the kid cannot see the truth and produces a fairy tale version of Karbala which like it or not most of the shias believe in now.
^ so u were allowed to have sex with slave women ? even though u didnt marry them ! ....
Abt Karbala ... One Imam was martyred and other was there through out karbala and sham ... Imam Zain-ul-abideen... Bibi Zainab was there to record the story of Karbala for us (fairy tales for you) If u were non muslim have wud have called stories in Quran fairy Tales.
Thats just you born in a wahabi family arguing abt Islam.
Yes you were. So let me ask you oh I am following the Sunnah person, how come I do not see you Shias trying to enslave women so you can fulfill your desires? You know why, because you are afraid of the world and civilized society. If Mutah was seen as reprehensible as slavery in today's world, you guys will not even dare attempt it or admit that you practise it. You know what that makes you---- a hypocrite and a person who has no intention to actually follow Islam rather give in to his sexual desires by hook or by crook.
This is the last time you will bring my family in this discussion. Keep the comments to me and the issues at hand. Do not bring family in the discussion.
There was someone on a train journey in Pakistan who needed to drink water he was going to die when an old man, a maulana came to him and presented an empty drinking vessel. He said to the thirsty man, "Drink" but the man could not as the vessel was empty. The old man asked him "Do you not believe in the waqia of Kerbala?" the man was silent and then the old man instructed, "if you believe in the waqia of Kerbala then you can drink" the man said that he believed in it and when he tried drinking lots of water began to flow from the vessel.
I understood that this story has nothing to do with true Shia beliefs. Instead however, it seemed rather odd that this man who had water did not give a thirsty man some water, when many people around the world who are not even Muslim should be given water when they are thirsty despite their beliefs. Also, why would the belief in a historical event have any significance to water? This could not be answered by my tutee, but I left the topic there and nothing more was said about it.
i think the story is probably a one of miracle so theres no need to read into from a religous perpsective.
Yes you were. So let me ask you oh I am following the Sunnah person, how come I do not see you Shias trying to enslave women so you can fulfill your desires? ...
...and i dont believe for one moment, that you have four wives...or that you've married a young girl, for that matter?...are you not following the sunnah?
(if you have, then i beg your pardon).
im talking generic here....but do you get the point?
Thank you for admitting that most of the Shias fall in the category of uneducated masses who are whipped up in emotions over the exaggerated tales. There is also a faction who tries to explain what the martyrs may have been thinking at the time of the battle or right before their death. These kind of tales are repeated over and over and over again until the kid cannot see the truth and produces a fairy tale version of Karbala which like it or not most of the shias believe in now.
Thank you for trying but missing the point entirely.
Noone believes in farytales, because the alims have always been there as the back bone of our society, to correct and clarify the exaggerations. As i said before, zakirs normally recite qaseedeh/marsiyeh and creative poetry. Alims on the other hand gives lectures. It all goes together pretty well.
...and i dont you believe for one moment, that you have four wives...or that you've not married a young girl, for that matter?...are you not following the sunnah?
(if you have, then i beg your pardon).
im talking generic here....but do you get the point?
your questions and fury are futile.
Nice try and pretty shameful to justify your deviant sexual behavior. This sums it up right here.
after reading so many posts from the beginning.. "missed a few" - i've come to the conclusion that these two will never stop fighting, why don't we let shias follow their belief and sunnis follow their belief. i'm a sunni muslim Alhamdulillah! i don't call anyone bad, and how am i supposed to call anyone wrong. its only ALLAH TAALA, Who will decide everything and Who knows whats on our minds and in our hearts from the humanity.. so please stop fighting and degrading eachother's sects or families, its really a shame our religion dont teach us all that!
i've some questions on my mind that i thought i would ask here, anyone call answer without unauthentic references please don't post. no. 1 i want to know why do shias say " Ya Ali Madad " in place of " As`salamuAlaikum " ? we're all told to follow the Prophet SAW even Hazrat Ali RA followed him then why aren't we following them and listening to the shia aalims only?
no. 2 why do you guys hurt yourself alot by "matam" every year? i heard even our bodies are "amaanat" to ALLAH TAALA and we must return it to Him as it is we can't cut the parts or make the marks unnecessarily.. 2ndly, we being muslims aren't allowed for more then 3 days "soug" after every loved one's death because this has to happen to everyone.
no. 3 why do you shia guys offer only 3 times prayers? and not 5 times as our Prophet used to offer?
I hope brothers and sisters to have authentic replies to these 3 questions and then i'll post the other questions i had to ask. sensible posts are highly appreciable, and arguments without any authentic notes wouldn't be considered at all.
Thanks everyone - please try to listen to everyone, the one who listens to everybody has more knowledge to differentiate between right and wrong.
DR, my intention was not to discredit Karbla or to say that it never happened. My intention was the same as you explained above, i.e. it has morphed into something far and away from reality. It was a political and power struggle, somehow, the Shias have added stories upon stories to fan their hatred for all non-shias.
meray bhai , politics and religion was interconnected in islam infact islam w/o politics is incomplete thats why the whole concept of khilafat-e-Rashida]
Stands taken by personalities of the calibre of sayyidna hussain b Ali in islam are not for worldly purposes even though they might be political.
most 12er eaggeration regarding karbala have actually nothing to do with inflaming hatred against other muslims but became a neccesity for poetic reasons as the account had to embellished again and again with more and more supernatural tales to keep the interest of audience alive.As the courts who employed these poets and zakireen paid them big money to do that.Thats why I say that azadari became an industry under safavids and nawabs of India.
It was the tabarra on shakyaan abu bakr and umar] & other sahaba that was done to inflame hatred againts sunnis.On yazid sunnis and shias all have same opinion [e.g refer to views of sahabi abdullah b hanzala on yazid] its just that 12er shiaism is very karbala-centric
its a much later recent phenomena that some people have degarded the wars of Ali and his sons to the level of merely worldy power struggles starting with ibn taymiyah] that I suspect is mostly a reaction to the very heretical kind of "devotion" which some people claim to have for Ali and his descendents.But this is not a belief of mainstream islam
Imam Shafai and Imam abu hanifa all have said that rules that Ali followed in waging war against rebels in his reign have become part of islamic law and he is the leader of the ummah in this respect.
[QUOTE]
There was someone on a train journey in Pakistan who needed to drink water he was going to die when an old man, a maulana came to him and presented an empty drinking vessel. He said to the thirsty man, "Drink" but the man could not as the vessel was empty. The old man asked him "Do you not believe in the waqia of Kerbala?" the man was silent and then the old man instructed, "if you believe in the waqia of Kerbala then you can drink" the man said that he believed in it and when he tried drinking lots of water began to flow from the vessel.
[/QUOTE]
sound very much like "do you take jesus christ as your personal savior ?"
no. 3 why do you shia guys offer only 3 times prayers? and not 5 times as our Prophet used to offer?
[/quote]
even 12ers dont pray 3 times they have 5 prayers but they combine asr & zohar and maghrib & Isha which is permissable in islam but they have turned it into a regular practice to distingish themselves from sunnis , just like they have added Ali un wali Allah in azan
[QUOTE]
anyone call answer without unauthentic references please don't post. no. 1 i want to know why do shias say " Ya Ali Madad " in place of " As`salamuAlaikum " ?
[/QUOTE]
ismalis 7ers do that not 12ers , 12ers use ya ali madad for other things e.g if a child trips , u get a papercut etc its a relic of older and more heretical beliefs of their predeccessors
haha, ironic coming from you. Not even worth to make a comparision between Shia and Sunni or Wahabi aalims (hate to use this term for the later) as tasveer say saaf zahir hay if u know what i mean
Funny u posted a Youtube Video as i got some very interesting ones to share too. Here is a preview but if u want i will upload some extra special ones for u:
And talking of youTube with you reminds me of one of the videos you posted here titled something like Virtues of Abu Bakr and Umar. It turned out the speaker talked about everything but could barely manage few minutes of so called virtues. Therefore your and your creeds’ bughs for Imam Ali and his descendent is not surprising. ciao
Thats a zakir and clearly not an alim das reich. It about time you learnt to differentiate. I guess your research is still at the intial stages....
bro, he's good at playing games. I have seen him get challegened quite a few times in this forum about his "expert" claims on azadari. However he follows the sunnat of the shaykhains and takes off like there is no tomorrow.
Ma Mooli
notice the word alim was in inverted commas , it was meant for likes of pagluu
and yes it was meant to be funny
[quote]
Therefore bughs for Imam Ali and his descendent is not surprising. ciao
[/quote]
thats a lame excuse you guys use against anyone who disagrees with 12er beliefs. So ur accussing me of something new Is this how one shows bughs ??
its a much later recent phenomena that some people have degarded the wars of Ali and his sons to the level of merely worldy power struggles starting with ibn taymiyah] that I suspect is mostly a reaction to the very heretical kind of "devotion" which some people claim to have for Ali and his descendents.But this is not a belief of mainstream islam
Imam Shafai and Imam abu hanifa all have said that rules that Ali followed in waging war against rebels in his reign have become part of islamic law and he is the leader of the ummah in this respect.
To criticize the rituals done in the name of azadari does not make you a nasibi
I thought you were better than this ...anyways
I am very familiar with the ulemas of your sect , and some of them I highly respect but definately not most.But their silent approval of zakireen is only going to make things worse for 12ers.For the general masses their opinions matter as much as those of real alims
[quote]
I guess your research is still at the intial stages....
[/quote]
Ma Mooli
notice the word alim was in inverted commas , it was meant for likes of pagluu
and yes it was meant to be funny
thats a lame excuse you guys use against anyone who disagrees with 12er beliefs. So ur accussing me of something new Is this how one shows bughs ??
its a much later recent phenomena that some people have degarded the wars of Ali and his sons to the level of merely worldy power struggles starting with ibn taymiyah] that I suspect is mostly a reaction to the very heretical kind of "devotion" which some people claim to have for Ali and his descendents.But this is not a belief of mainstream islam
Imam Shafai and Imam abu hanifa all have said that rules that Ali followed in waging war against rebels in his reign have become part of islamic law and he is the leader of the ummah in this respect.
To criticize the rituals done in the name of azadari does not make you a nasibi
I thought you were better than this ...anyways
I am very familiar with the ulemas of your sect , and some of them I highly respect but definately not most.But their silent approval of zakireen is only going to make things worse for 12ers.For the general masses their opinions matter as much as those of real alims
offcourse it is ...is your at final stages ??
GOod to read more sensible reply. And Ulema do address the problem of Zakireen but given the calibre of the larger rural population of Pakistan it is not an easy task. People are illeterate. Do you think the sunni populace of the same areas are any better in their practices??
MaMooli
you guys need to grow up and accept criticism
..
^ shaykh ninowy [same one who has lectures on virtues of sayyidna abu bakr and umar ]
exposes the nawasib .......now u will call him having bughs of Ali as well ?
brother, you are the one who needs to grow up and stop throwing below the belt punches by trying to open hells gate and posting YouTube videos. Tolerance has to come from both sides.
And there is nothing wrong with Sheikh Ninowy. Look at face masha allah its glowing with noor as he is a lover of Rasool Allah and Imam Ali.
