Sharia Law in NWFP

[Himalaya]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

this is my point - these people have no real idea what islam is about. in the summer of 2006 i was travellig from chitral and passing through dir when we picked a man with a beard - most likely deobandi and his blue burqa-ed up with mesh wife and then after a while the van stopped. they are hi-ace coaches which can seat up to 18 people. as it was a long distance travel the hiace stopped and we all got off. the man had decided to go and pray so he sat his wife on the floor with back to the road and her child in her arms as he went to pray. even though she was fully covered she still had to turn her back.

it is this sort of stuff which people think the shariah is all about in north-west pakistan and afghanistan. i felt a bit sick watching the scene and i did want to say to him but i guess change comes slowly.

That is a very good point, but I doubt Taliban or militant really care about their women otherwise they won't be blowing other's women and children in public places or using them as their shield.

[ehtasab]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

this is my point - these people have no real idea what islam is about. in the summer of 2006 i was travellig from chitral and passing through dir when we picked a man with a beard - most likely deobandi and his blue burqa-ed up with mesh wife and then after a while the van stopped. they are hi-ace coaches which can seat up to 18 people. as it was a long distance travel the hiace stopped and we all got off. the man had decided to go and pray so he sat his wife on the floor with back to the road and her child in her arms as he went to pray. even though she was fully covered she still had to turn her back.

I think this particular issue is more to do with their conservatism/culture from long time ago, this is not a new phenomena due to "Taliban influence". However since "Taliban" interpretation is much closer to their "conservatism" then they pick it and want to enforce it on others too.

[Moonshiner]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

I think this particular issue is more to do with their conservatism/culture from long time ago, this is not a new phenomena due to "Taliban influence". However since "Taliban" interpretation is much closer to their "conservatism" then they pick it and want to enforce it on others too.

My mother grew up in Peshawar in the 60s and 70s and she would disagree. She said all these mullah beardos and niqabi women is a new phenomenon brought by external forces and funding.

[burqaposhx]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

Sad that a country founded upon implementing Islamic law is deviating away from it, and "throwing" it away to a small region.

No wonder PAK is in such turmoil.

Turmoil in Pakistan is all due to the cancer spread by Jihadis. Once they are eliminated we'll be a tolerant Muslim society that is nice to Shia, Ahmadis, Christians, and Hindus.

Jinnah's Pakistan was for everyone, Shia, Sunnis, and others were supposed to live and prosper in this beautiful country. Too bad that Pakistanis got influenced by Saudi wahabi Islam, and Irani Shia Islam, and ended up murdering their own Pakistani brothers.

Hopefully soon we will achieve Jinnah's Pakistan, a tolerant place for everyone free of religious persecution.

[USResident]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

I think "thejoke" has made valid points about the people in those regions.

I've actually myself had worse experience in Madyan, we were touring the area with a Co-Ed group (you know university tours) and believe the people starting throwing stones at us because we had women accompanying us in the group.

The hotel I stayed in, the owner was very emphatic about not eating anywhere else except his kitchen because it was a matter of prestige for him.

I swear the little kids of these regions have so much life in them, they follow you begging for just a single rupee and when you give it to them, their eyes just glare up.

Another time in swat, I had breakfast in one of the hotels. My bill was for Rs 78, and I gave him Rs 100 and there I am standing for him to return me my change and he is completely ignoring me busy with his work. I inquired where is my change and he is like lets just call it even at Rs 100. Interestingly, he did not know how to calculate so it was me who had calculated the total for him. Since I was outnumbered I said no problem, this is between brothers and left. I came back the next day and had breakfast again and just subtracted the amount he owed me from the total and called it even and he was happy with it without knowing I had already settled the score with him.

Now this is the type of people you deal with over there. Anyone who thinks they understand Islam or even fairly familiar with the fundamentals of ethics are dreaming and dead-wrong.

These people need basic education and ethics more than anything but it is very hard for them to realize this as it becomes a matter of honor for them very quickly. Women are their trophies not wives and truly a lower-caste in their society. Their instincts are not toned enough for acccepting anything other than their own stereotypical personalities. We have a very very long way to go with these people and these uprisings/insurgencies are just the beginning of their evolution.

As for the article, I think one law should rule the whole country. Especially isolating the justice system in one district is not fair to the people over there. Sharia is a fluid thing depending on the dynamics of the society. One thing for sure when they see their businesses in loss because of loss of tourism they will be reacting very quick to this and most probably the provincial government will be releasing an array of propaganda against the fed for not supporting these people. People in these regions come to urban areas for earning a living, most of the money they make in their own turf is through tourism and visitors.

[Moonshiner]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

Turmoil in Pakistan is all due to the cancer spread by Jihadis.

Jihadis who were sponsored by our Pakistani government, ISI and military and still are being sponsored by those same people today.

[quote]
Irani Shia Islam
[/quote]

There is no such thing as Irani Shia Islam. There is only Shia Islam and all Shias will attest to that. Your false spin doctoring will not work here.

[burqaposhx]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

My mother grew up in Peshawar in the 60s and 70s and she would disagree. She said all these mullah beardos and niqabi women is a new phenomenon brought by external forces and funding.

She is correct. If you read the recent history, Peshawar was an urban center and pretty open city. Women did wear a chador. On the other hand the FATAns were pretty much the same as of now. FATAn women wore shuttle cock burqa, and FATAn men carried 0.303 rifles with pride.

But then, it wasn't Peshawar the only open city in the region. Kabul itself was pretty nice and yet cheap. Kabuli women wore skirts, and pretty fashionable markets thrived there. Seniors in my family used to go there for vacation. You could get wads of Afghani currency for relative little Pak rupees.

However the commie interference changed all that. All the openness was gone, and replaced with commie inspired fear, persecution, jailing, torture, and murder. Urban Afghans fled to the rural area and became much more conservative just to fit in.

These Afghan urbanite's horror stories and their leadership started a rural uprising against commie rule. Americans supported that uprising and the rest as the say is history. And FATAns picked up Russian AK-47 instead of the old 0.303.

Not that Pakistanis should blame Afghanis for every bad thing in Peshawar. There was one particular ruthless movement in Pakistan that also moved us towards more conservative leanings.

In the tumultuous period of 1970s, Jamat Islami started a very chauvinistic movement against Ahmadis. They had tried one during Ayub's time but they failed. However this time, they were able to force ZAB into corner and ZAB termed Ahmadis as non-Muslims.

This however was just the beginning of successful attack on minorities. Pakistani Maulvies had always termed their opposing sect as "non-Muslim" and it was nothing new.

But once the Bhutto government backed this Maulvi attack on one sect, there was no stopping. The next target automatically became Shias.

However Shias had their supporters in Iran, who became all powerful after the revolution of 1979. Money and guns flew in and Pakistani Shias got armed to teeth. Shia youth was given scholarships to visit Iran to get money and indoctrination. Imamia Student Organization was created to counter IJT, and Shias were ready to face off Sunni terror.

It would have stopped at that in a stalemate, but another turn in the international situation resulted in flood of Wahabi money into Pakistan. And thus Pakistan became a battleground for Wahabi and Shia proxies or mercenaries.

In that struggle Wahabis were victorious just because of their sheer numbers. But that has left Pakistani urban centers in ruins.

Not only Peshawar is now much more conservative, so are the cities like Pindi, Lahore, Multan, and Karachi.

So yes. MS, your mother is right! (sadly).

.

[Himalaya]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

Peshawar has grown as a city relatively recently. It was not until the Afghan's came in to Peshawar that more and more women ventured out. Pashtun women in rural areas always had freedom to go out and about within their land and most wore a chaddor but of course never to the bazaar. Women from the tribal belt had much more freedom than the women from urban areas. The urban surroundings were unfamiliar so for safety men kept their women locked up at home. When the Afghani elite the females were unused to staying locked up at home so ddi ventre out to bazaars. Eventually local Peshawar women followed suit. Unlike other cities very rarely would you seea local peshawa r woman leave her house without a headscarf - almost all of the females over the age of 16 wear it although a good number drop it in certain areas like shops, restaurants, airports etc.
The same applies to Quetta. Although Quetta is a city that grew naturally. It never had an Afghani elite settling in and setting trends. Quetta was probably more at odds as in some ways it has far more conservative people there ie from outlying areas and kandahar but then it has far more nationlist and secular pashtuns as well as a signiicant hazara/changezi and urdu speaking population.

Women from tribal areas and rural nwfp were the ones collecting water and often worked in fields. Untl very recently soem of the tribal women did not even cover faces and some of them performed the attan dance with men.

Yet now with the upsurge in madrassas the culture has started to change. In some areas some husbands do notallow their sisters husbands to see their own wives - thats a very close relation. Some younger men do notallow their wives to appear in front of their first and close cousins. Generally these men are very gender and women-obsessed that is why when "shariah" is enforced women bear the brunt of it. These men see women as the causes of evil and a being that must be supressed as much as possible. they fear that if a woman speaks loudly she will bring attention to herself and many of these people are not satisfied with the burqa, they want their women to wear gloves as well.

I would not say Peshawar has become more conservative as for many young people from their to not have a boy or girlfriend is seen as unusual. So many of the kids are dating. more and more younger guys in peshawar are adopting western dress.

The growth in the wearing of the burqa has not stopped the increase in adultery, AIDS and other STD's, sexual harrasment. Under the Burqa's and chadors they literally wear nothing.

Some parts of the Taliban culture is something very new to Peshawar and NWFP. There are some hsitorical "Jihads" led by certain people but this new culture wants to take the freedom of men away too. The whole Taliban mentality would not fit in places such as the peshawar valley, kohat, mohmand agency, khyber agency, khurram agency but may find more support in palces suich as bannu, swat,. Even waziristan was not conservative but eventually due to the mlitant vs pak army./usa scenario it pushed people away.

I think this particular issue is more to do with their conservatism/culture from long time ago, this is not a new phenomena due to "Taliban influence". However since "Taliban" interpretation is much closer to their "conservatism" then they pick it and want to enforce it on others too.

[Himalaya]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

i would not say moe consrvative but more polarised. these cities have grown a lot over time and their culture has changed buttosay they have become more conservative is not true in my opinion. unless you can define what you mean by conservatism.

Not only Peshawar is now much more conservative, so are the cities like Pindi, Lahore, Multan, and Karachi.

So yes. MS, your mother is right! (sadly).

.

[ehtasab]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

My mother grew up in Peshawar in the 60s and 70s and she would disagree. She said all these mullah beardos and niqabi women is a new phenomenon brought by external forces and funding.

Peshawar is a city. We are talking about rural areas here.

[ehtasab]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

Another time in swat, I had breakfast in one of the hotels. My bill was for Rs 78, and I gave him Rs 100 and there I am standing for him to return me my change and he is completely ignoring me busy with his work. I inquired where is my change and he is like lets just call it even at Rs 100. Interestingly, he did not know how to calculate so it was me who had calculated the total for him. Since I was outnumbered I said no problem, this is between brothers and left. I came back the next day and had breakfast again and just subtracted the amount he owed me from the total and called it even and he was happy with it without knowing I had already settled the score with him.

Now this is the type of people you deal with over there. Anyone who thinks they understand Islam or even fairly familiar with the fundamentals of ethics are dreaming and dead-wrong.

Sorry but your above example is more to do with "simpleton" or "uneducated", not much with ethics (otherwise he wouldn't accept your evening out/settling).

I agree with your second paragraph though, reason being just like everyone else they have left the religion for "molvi sahib" to understand, explain, interpret (hence full control of religion). When they hear the "Talibanic" interpretation from their molvi they write it on the stone. Since they are not too much into "human rights" they have no problems shoving their interpretation down other's throats.

[USResident]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

Sorry but your above example is more to do with "simpleton" or "uneducated", not much with ethics (otherwise he wouldn't accept your evening out/settling).

I agree with your second paragraph though, reason being just like everyone else they have left the religion for "molvi sahib" to understand, explain, interpret (hence full control of religion). When they hear the "Talibanic" interpretation from their molvi they write it on the stone. Since they are not too much into "human rights" they have no problems shoving their interpretation down other's throats.

This is not simpleton or uneducated. They understand very well Rs 100 is more than Rs 78. This is business ethics which would be taught by Islam, so hence my point they have no idea about the religion they claim to follow.

[burqaposhx]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

This is not simpleton or uneducated. They understand very well Rs 100 is more than Rs 78. This is business ethics which would be taught by Islam, so hence my point they have no idea about the religion they claim to follow.

USR bro is right.

I'd just like to add here. It is not the people in Swat that would have ethics issues. The problem is that many people keep long flowing beards, do multiple Huj, and still cheat in every which way they can. This disease is not only Pashtoon area but also in big cities like Lahore and Karachi.

Then the same people turn around and say they want Sharia system to be implemented. They are the ones who would curse women who may not have a proper "purdah". They are the ones who would declare the other sects as non-Muslim.

I don't know how many of you have been to Swat lately. People openly defy state law. For example, there is no tradition of paying taxes on the motor vehicles. Almost 90% of the cars are illegal. Every family worth something has now acquired multiple cars. But no taxes.

So Sharia law in Sarhad is going to be just another way to allow corruption in the name of Islam. And that my friends! is their way to launder their evils. Just pass Allah Rasool's name, get Qazi courts and boom all the smuggling, all the haram khori is good.

[ehtasab]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

^ Unfortunately hypocricy exists in both sharia-lovers and sharia-non-lovers. But I don't agree with you when you say that they want to allow corruption in name of Islam when they are using weapons to enforce justice (however incorrect interpretation it may be).

[Himalaya]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

The problem with those employed in areas with direct contact with money is that it can easily lower their principles. These people think nothing of over-charging people, giving poor service. I doubt such people really want shariah law. The brand of shariah law the militants want is simply bad for business.

I think "thejoke" has made valid points about the people in those regions.

I've actually myself had worse experience in Madyan, we were touring the area with a Co-Ed group (you know university tours) and believe the people starting throwing stones at us because we had women accompanying us in the group.

The hotel I stayed in, the owner was very emphatic about not eating anywhere else except his kitchen because it was a matter of prestige for him.

I swear the little kids of these regions have so much life in them, they follow you begging for just a single rupee and when you give it to them, their eyes just glare up.

Another time in swat, I had breakfast in one of the hotels. My bill was for Rs 78, and I gave him Rs 100 and there I am standing for him to return me my change and he is completely ignoring me busy with his work. I inquired where is my change and he is like lets just call it even at Rs 100. Interestingly, he did not know how to calculate so it was me who had calculated the total for him. Since I was outnumbered I said no problem, this is between brothers and left. I came back the next day and had breakfast again and just subtracted the amount he owed me from the total and called it even and he was happy with it without knowing I had already settled the score with him.

Now this is the type of people you deal with over there. Anyone who thinks they understand Islam or even fairly familiar with the fundamentals of ethics are dreaming and dead-wrong.

These people need basic education and ethics more than anything but it is very hard for them to realize this as it becomes a matter of honor for them very quickly. Women are their trophies not wives and truly a lower-caste in their society. Their instincts are not toned enough for acccepting anything other than their own stereotypical personalities. We have a very very long way to go with these people and these uprisings/insurgencies are just the beginning of their evolution.

As for the article, I think one law should rule the whole country. Especially isolating the justice system in one district is not fair to the people over there. Sharia is a fluid thing depending on the dynamics of the society. One thing for sure when they see their businesses in loss because of loss of tourism they will be reacting very quick to this and most probably the provincial government will be releasing an array of propaganda against the fed for not supporting these people. People in these regions come to urban areas for earning a living, most of the money they make in their own turf is through tourism and visitors.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

Brotha! That is exactly why i said 'IF' its from the Quran then fine. IF it has parts of "opinion" of the wiseguys, then it will be corrupt.

Ameen to ur dua.

I agree, and I think most muslims would agree. And I think anyone that's followed Pakistan's experimentation with applying Sharia law realizes that "opinion" often finds its way into the picture.

I don't think its unreasonable to fear this.

The Quran isn't sitting in the judicial proceedings and talking of its own accord - its being interpreted by a "religious scholar".

I would say its only smart and logical to question who these people would be, what qualifications they have, and to what extent a judge can ignore or follow this religious scholar, and what sorts of judgements will be passed where the Quran doesn't talk about the issue and hadith is hazy on the topic (ex. will these courts be able to take away employment, legally, from musicians and force CD shop owners to shut down their stores, close women's schools, and take women out of the work force - all things that the Pakistani clergy are well known for historically and currently in NWFP, but have zero to little support from religious texts).

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

How do you know? Were you there?

And from where did your small brain come to the conclusion that I support the Taliban?

Where is your source for this conclusion? Do you know how to read?

When you raise your IQ from 40 to 80, so never.

The gang rape case has been well-documented. Look it up in the newspapers. If you don't believe that multiple newspapers reporting the same story PROBABLY means its true, call Saudi's gov't and ask them to give you a statemtent on it. They'll either tell the truth, or lie to your face.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

I've really enjoyed reading some of your personal experiences and stories with the region - I am not from there myself and never visited, so its nice to get other persepctives.

[Moonshiner]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

The gang rape case has been well-documented. Look it up in the newspapers. If you don't believe that multiple newspapers reporting the same story PROBABLY means its true, call Saudi's gov't and ask them to give you a statemtent on it. They'll either tell the truth, or lie to your face.

Learn how to read. I was talking about Saladin's version of Sharia, not of the Taliban's.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Sharia Law in NWFP

I don't care who's version of Shariat you were talking about - that's irrelevant. You wanted proof the incident ever happened. I was recommending resources for you to research into.

Therefore, YOU would benefit most by following your own insulting advice.