shakin hands

lazy_daisy · January 21, 2006, 10:19am

Re: shakin hands

Your royal Codeness

SOME Pakistani men in pakistan sometimes shake a girls hand but few do kiss the hand
I talk from experience...

I thought it was a cultural thing

Code_Red · January 21, 2006, 10:50am

Re: shakin hands

Muhtarma Lazy_daisy Sahiba !

You may have been witness or party to an ‘isolated’ event where the girl is cooking delicious* chocolate fudge cake, with extra toping of chocolate syrup and hazelnuts … In the porcess her hands dip in smell like mouthwater chocolate and and a Pakistan Muslim guy ( who is a close friend/relative/associate) comes to visit her and uncontrolably kisses her hand in order to lick sweet smelling chocolate…

Now Ms Daisy, You being the one mentioning this incident should, in future, please narrate the whole incident, in order to show the whole picture to reader. Thanks
…

Note to above (part where girl is cooking ‘delicious’… )

Although it is a universally known fact the guys excel in cooking, and they are pioneer of culinary exuberance, in all geographical location around the world.
Still some women acquire these qualities to some extent by mimicking men.

lazy_daisy · January 21, 2006, 11:19am

Re: shakin hands

Mr Red, …you were one of the few here whos interlect impressed me
Reading your last paragraph I see how wrong and deluded I was…:rocketup:

Re the first part …there was NO chocolate involved

I thought it impolite to pull my hand away…bristly mustaches are NOT nice
and ive heard of it done to others…

anyway old men AND women do it! (but not to each other)

l

Code_Red · January 21, 2006, 11:45am

Re: shakin hands

Sorry to disappoint you Ms. Daisy… but as we men have learned to live with the disrespect and treatment like dirt, in Pakistan and around the world. You women should accept this reality too, the sooner the merrier.

Happy valintine’s day to you too

I shall respond to your last line in other forum

otherwise Mr. A R Mughal will start deleting my posts as he is a newly married man and unlike experienced campaigners, he loses his temper when his wife ask him to do dishes, the resultant wrath on poor poster of religion forum like me

PyariCgudia · January 21, 2006, 1:53pm

Re: shakin hands

If your intention was clean, it should not be a big deal.

muslima_1 · January 21, 2006, 2:11pm

Re: shakin hands

thanks for all ur comments all of ut u
but u guys took the conversation soooooooo seriously
i really didnt want it to go this serious
so plz calm down abit .im surprised how far the conversation has gone since yesterday.

i know theres a hadees of the prophet(saw) about this.does any one know it

an once again calm down please

muslima_1 · January 21, 2006, 2:13pm

Re: shakin hands

it’s alrite lazy and im sorry if a sed anythin that offended u

Iconoclast · January 21, 2006, 2:58pm

Re: shakin hands

Koi aap sey haath ker giya hai

hiccup · January 21, 2006, 10:48pm

Re: shakin hands

Good luck getting hired. LD is quite right.

PrinceMS · January 22, 2006, 1:18am

Re: shakin hands

so in conclusion I can touch gurls? and say oops ... it was a mistake.

Hmm , still I am a slow learner - i may have to touch couple of times too ... hmmm

j/k

itsme01 · January 22, 2006, 2:40am

Re: shakin hands

so basically, to get hired a person has to go about hand-shaking...ridiculous.
It is understandable why you do not prefer to shakehand, and you Musilima have to stick to what you believe is right, no matter what other think.

Sadiyah · January 22, 2006, 3:13am

Re: shakin hands

Faisal:

I think the whole discussion went on a wrong track.

There is a valid argument, with appropriate support, to suggest a muslim woman should not shake hands or unnecessarily touch a non-mehram man. If someone believes in that sincerely and fully, more power to them. I don’t think there is a need to find exceptions for business or whatever.

If someone sticks their hand out, you can politely smile and say “I am sorry I don’t shake hands but I am very pleased to meet you”. Unless specifically asked and you are comfortable sharing, then you don’t even have to explain why. You are probably too young to deal with people who are exposed to various cultures, but there are unique characteristics of each culture and most people respect that. For example, in Japan, rather than shake hands, they bow slightly; and they will present their business cards with both hands. Its considered rude to give your business card with just one hand. With time, people learn, understand and appreciate that. Not shaking hands is your choice and you should feel free to exercise your right.

I agree. :k:

A friend of mine does something similar and has not faced any serious difficulty. She’s doing well and has landed with great jobs and is respected by all.

Sadiyah · January 22, 2006, 3:53am

Re: shakin hands

Tried to look up material and came across the following:

Praise be to Allaah.

** Firstly:**

It is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and His Messenger to put his hand in the hand of a women who is not permissible for him or who is not one of his mahrams. Whoever does that has wronged himself (i.e., sinned).

It was narrated that Ma’qil ibn Yassaar said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “For one of you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle is better for him than that he should touch a woman who is not permissible for him.”
Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, 486. Shaykh al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 5045, that this hadeeth is saheeh. 
This hadeeth alone is sufficient to deter and to instill the obedience required of us by Allaah, because it implies that touching women may lead to temptation and immorality.

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the believing women migrated to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), they would be tested in accordance with the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

‘O Prophet! When believing women come to you to give you the Bay‘ah (pledge), that they will not associate anything in worship with Allaah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit illegal sexual intercourse’
[al-Mumtahanah 60:12] 
‘Aa’ishah said: Whoever among the believing women agreed to that had passed the test, and when the women agreed to that, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to them: “Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.’ No, by Allaah, the hand of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman, rather they would give their oath of allegiance with words only.” And ‘Aa’ishah said: “By Allaah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) only took the oath of allegiance from the women in the manner prescribed by Allaah, and the hand of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman. When he had taken their oath of allegiance he would say, ‘I have accepted your oath of allegiance verbally.’”
(narrated by Muslim, 1866) 
It was narrated from ‘Urwah that ‘Aa’ishah told him about the women’s oath of allegiance: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never touched any woman with his hand. He would explain to the woman what the oath of allegiance implied, and when she accepted, he would say ‘Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.’”
Narrated by Muslim, 1866 
This infallible one, the best of mankind, the leader of the sons of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, did not touch women. This is despite the fact that the oath of allegiance was originally given by hand. So how about men other than the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?

It was narrated that Umaymah the daughter of Raqeeqah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “I do not shake hands with women.”
Narrated by al-Nasaa’i (4181) and Ibn Maajah, 2874; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2513. 
** Secondly:**

It is not permissible to shake hands even with a barrier in between, such as shaking hands from beneath a garment and the like. The hadeeth that was narrated allowing that is da’eef (weak).

It was narrated from Ma’qal ibn Yassaar that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to shake hands with women from beneath a garment.”
Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, 2855. 

Al-Haythami said: 

This was narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer and al-Awsat. Its isnaad includes ‘Ataab ibn Harb, who is da’eef (weak). 

Majma’ al-Zawaa’id, 6/39. 

Wali al-Deen al-‘Iraaqi said: 
The words of ‘Aa’ishah, “He used to accept the women’s oath of allegiance by words only” mean that he did so without taking their hands or shaking hands with them. This indicates that the bay’ah of men was accepted by taking their hands and shaking hands with them, as well as by words, and this is how it was. What ‘Aa’ishah mentioned was the custom.

Some of the mufassireen mentioned that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called for a vessel of water and dipped his hand in it, then the women dipped their hands in it. And some of them said that he did not shake hands with them from behind a barrier and had a Qatari cloak over his hand. And it was said that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) shook hands with them on his behalf. None of these reports are sound, especially the last one, How could ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) have done something that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who was ma’soom (infallible), would not do?
Tarh al-Tathreeb, 7/45 

Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 
The most correct view is that this (i.e., shaking hands with women from behind a barrier) is not allowed at all, because of the general meaning of the hadeeth, according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “I do not shake hands with women;” and so as to ward off the means that may lead to evil.
(Adapted from Hashiyat Majmoo’at Rasaa’il fi’l-Hijaab wa’l-Sufoor, p. 69) 
The same ruling applies to shaking hands with old women; this is also haraam because of the general meaning of the texts on this issue. The reports that say it is permissible are da’eef (weak).
Al-Zayla’i said: 

“As for the report that ‘Abu Bakr used to shake hands with old women, it is also ghareeb.” 

(Nasab al-Raayah, 4/240) 

Ibn Hajar said: 

I cannot find this hadeeth. 

(al-Diraayah fi Takhreej Ahaadeeth al-Hidaayah, 2/225) 

Fourthly: 

With regard to the views of the four imams, they are as follows: 
** 1 – The Hanafi madhhab: **
Ibn Nujaym said: 
It is not permissible for a man to touch a woman’s face or hands even if there is no risk of desire because it is haraam in principle and there is no necessity that would allow it.
 Al-Bahr al-Raa’iq, 8/219 
** 2 – The Maaliki madhhab: **
Muhammad ibn Ahmad (‘Ulaysh) said: 
It is not permissible for a man to touch the face or hand of a non-mahram woman, and it is not permissible for him to put his hand on hers without a barrier. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never accepted a woman’s oath of allegiance by shaking hands with her; rather he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to accept their oath of allegiance by words only.” According to another report, “His hand never touched the hand of a woman, rather he would accept their oath of allegiance by words only.”
(Manh al-Jaleel Sharh Mukhtasar Khaleel, 1/223) 
** 3 – The Shaafa’i madhhab: **
Al-Nawawi said: 

It is not permissible to touch a woman in any way. 

Al-Majmoo’, 4/515. 

Wali al-Deen al-‘Iraaqi said: 
This indicates that the hand of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not touch the hand of any woman apart from his wives and concubines, whether in the case of accepting the oath of allegiance or in other cases. If he did not do that despite the fact that he was infallible and beyond suspicion, then it is even more essential that others heed this prohibition. It appears from the texts that he refrained from doing that because it was haraam for him to do so. The fuqaha’ among our companions and others said that it is haraam to touch a non-mahram woman even if that is not touching parts of her body that are not ‘awrah, such as her face. But they differed with regard to looking when there is no desire and no fear of fitnah. The prohibition on touching is stronger than the prohibition on looking, and it is haraam when there is no necessity that would allow it. If it is the case of necessity, e.g. medical treatment, removing a tooth or treating the eyes, etc., if there is no woman who can do that, then it is permissible for a non-mahram to do that because it is the case of necessity.
Tarh al-Tathreeb, 7/45, 46 
** 4 – The Hanbali madhhab**
Ibn Muflih said: 
Abu ‘Abd-Allaah – i.e., Imam Ahmad – was asked about a man who shakes hands with a woman. He said, No, and was emphatic that it is haraam. I said, Should he shake hands with her from beneath his garment? He said, No.

Shaykh Taqiy al-Deen also favoured the view that it is prohibited, and gave the reason that touching is more serious than looking.
AlAdaab al-Shar’iyyah, 2/257 

And Allaah knows best. 

Ref: Shaking hands with a non-maham woman

PS. I thought I’d clarify I looked up material, so that it could be of assistance. I’m by no means a good or ideal Muslim.

armughal · January 22, 2006, 4:52am

Re: shakin hands

how can going against the sayings of the Prophet (saw) not be a big deal???

Fear_Allah · January 22, 2006, 12:46pm

Re: shakin hands

Assalamaualaikum.
jazakillahukhairan sister sadiyah.most exccelent post :k:

Islam is a way of life,
it has the answer to evrything needed to live your life in the best way possible.
dont compramise it to please anyone most of all your self. your here to please Allah alone.and obey and act occording to what has been revealed by him.
do not make your own rules up as you go along.
Allah created you. he knows whats good for you and what is bad for you.
you may think shaking hands with the opposite sex is a small thing, but once you start with the small things they become big things.
good begets good. evil begets evil.
dont dig your self a hole, because if you keep digging its going to make it harder and harder to get out.

and Allah knows best.

Larki_Pakistani · January 22, 2006, 4:32pm

Re: shakin hands

Salam,
Good! I will try to do that inshaAllah. I dont feel that im strong enough to do that, but i will try inshaAllah! Do u have more examples?!

PyariCgudia · January 22, 2006, 11:42pm

Re: shakin hands

Because the Prophet’s advice depended upon situations. He took into account circumstances, if you read through hadith’s and historical lessons, when making decisions.

Likewise, we need to make our decisions based upon the circumstances. Does it say in the Quran that you are not permitted to touch anyone at all of the opposite sex, even for harmless reasons? In that case, if I go to a male doctor, I’m committing zina?

As for the whole landing a job deal, you can look at it two ways. Either you refrain from shaking hands, which is considered polite in western countries and even many eastern countries, and then not land the job, or you can shake hands and then land the job. Believe it or not, one of the biggest things they look for when hiring is to see how flexible you are. If you aren’t flexible enough to shake that person’s hands, then very few people will see anything admirable about it.

In that case, okay, we can continue to have a community abroad that lacks of proffessionals and people in well-respected careers. And then our community can continue to lack the resources it needs. :k:

armughal · January 23, 2006, 4:48am

Re: shakin hands

^ compromise on religion for worldly needs, thats the spirit girl… :k:

PyariCgudia · January 23, 2006, 5:41am

Re: shakin hands

No no, working on wordly needs so that your population isn't suffering with polio and domestic abuse, and poverty, and many other unnecessary ills.

armughal · January 23, 2006, 5:58am

Re: shakin hands

^ and shaking hands can solve sufferings of polio, domestic abuse, poverty, etc etc etc????