Securalized Pakistan?

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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *

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I appreciate your reply and although I think your comment on me being dumb only makes you appear a lot less credible im still glad one of you gave me descent reply.
Anyways, most of what you say is completely and utterly impractical and unfair for the most part.
No one in the country is going to follow your perscription for an Islamic state unless they are forced into it by the Danda. You claim that an Islamic society will solve everything, but thats totally naive. And I can tell you why.. Human nature.
No one for example will ever stop listening to Music in public or anywhere else. Weddings all across Pakistan are incomplete without Music. How will you stop people from playing music at weddings by sending the religious police? You can stop all forms of entertainment and all that will do is make people bitter and angry and more rebelious,
Because that human nature. Look what happened when Liquor was outlawed, people started smuggling it and making it at home... I mean its a fact that liquor is easier to find then water in many places. Look at how our society seperates men and women, its seen as taboo, and you know as well as I do how many men in Pakistan turn to their own sex for "companionship." Pakistanis indulge in every unislamic vice and this despite the fact that they are outlawed so what difference will an Islamic system make?
As for women and temptation..Bro, women that are attractive can whatever they want and they will still be tempting. Women are a temptation no matter what they wear.
And Minorites paying Jizya is a completely out dated concept. The Mafia is the only organization that exacts "protection" money. And who the hell are the Minorities paying for protection from????
And why can a Muslim be spared the death penalty for killing a Non Muslim? If a Muslim Murders and entire Non muslim family in the most horendous way, he gets a life sentance but if it were the other way around the non muslim WOULD get the death sentance... How the hell is that Justice?
And what the hell is modest dress? Iif I wear shorts am I being modest? If I wear expensive western made Versaci suits, while everyone else wears Kmart, how the hell is that being modest?
And again, who is going to agree with you so called scholars? Shia will certainly not agree with everything a Sunni scholar says. Infact, different schools withi Sunni Islam will not agree on who is and who isnt a scholar, and how the religion is to be interpreted. And there really nothing in our culture that doesnt contradict Islam, name me one thing that doesnt contradict Islam.
And if I dont agree with how the religion is interpreted, why should I go to the so called scholors? Who are they and what are their credentials...?
There is no authority in Islam, no vatican like system, so where the heck do these scholors come from?
Its a proven fact that capital punishment doesnt work, and besides, it does seem rather cruel to chop someones hands of for robbery. Humanists have a point in this case. I mean, why did that person steal, maybe its the societies fault, in Pakistan for example, economic conditions, educational system probably make more criminals then anything else.
As for the 1 woman = 2 men, thats fine, But I know many men that are complete liars and many women that are more credible then a hundered men put together. So im not sure how ground realities can hold up in this case.
And when was the last time you found four men who could confirm that sex was concesual? I mean, do all couples about to have sex have four men around to confirm it... Its ridiculous.

Petty issues happen to be in the preamble of Pakistan and are not symbolic. It is the legal wordings that matters and results in good governance.
Pakistan shall be a Federal Republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as Pakistan.

Jinnah said on Aug 11th 1947
‘… You are free; you are free to go to your temples,
you are free to go to your mosques or to any other
places of worship ** in the State of Pakistan. You may
belong to any religion or caste or creed – that has
nothing to do with the business of the State … We are
starting with this fundamental principle: that we are
all citizens and equal citizens of one State.
* Now, I
think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal
and you will find that in course of time Hindus
would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease
to be Muslims, not so in the religious sense because
that is the personal faith of each individual, but in
the political sense as citizens of the state.’*

But the ideology of Pakistan uses the two nation theory and uses religion as the dividing factor which gives basis for creation of another state (Pakistan) from within India (sub-continent).
Glancing at the objective resolution of 1949 and, the 1973 constitution; It is pretty apparant that ruling powers succumbed to the religious pressures. For instance

It declared that Pakistan was a Muslim state and not an Islamic state since a Muslim State is any state which is ruled by Muslims while an Islamic State is one which opts to conduct its affairs in accordance with the revealed guidance of Islam and accepts the sovereignty of Allah and the supremacy of His Law, and which devotes its resources to achieve this end. [3] According to this definition, Pakistan was a Muslim state ruled by secular minded Muslims. Hence the Jamat-i-Islami and other religious leaders channeled their efforts to make Pakistan an “Islamic State.”
http://ghazali.net/book1/body_chapter_3
Wordings and symbols do matter and need to be changed accordingly.

ThandyMazaq...i would like to argue on a couple of issues.

Number 1...regarding the rights of non muslims. The cannot take part in the legislative process of the state. Because legislation has to be based on Quran and Sunnah, and they dont believe in it. Philosophically speaking Caliphate belongs to Muslims. Non muslims cannot take part on the highest level of policy making. Because the highest level of policy making revolves around making the Deen of Allah dominant everywhere, and they are not muslims. Non muslims cant suscribe to these to this policy. They can take active part everywhere else, except for these two parts...the Legislative level and the Highest level of policy making.

Secondly...the last question. Scholars governing the society would be a theocracy, as is seen in Iran. This is not a perfect model of an Islamic state. In a more perfect sense and Islamic State....would have advisors who are Scholars. Scholars who are self-sufficient and are not to be paid by the Head of the State. If the Head of the State pays, then the scholars become his employee and are hence expected to be subsurvient to the Head.

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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
... I never said Mullah's should come to power. ...i want those present day MMA or any other Mullah to come to power. All i said .. that, we should adopt an Islamic Form of Government cause that was the sole reason why Pakistan was built. .......
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Look you think the Islamic form of government will be run by Harvard graduates? You must be kidding me.

Anything religious sounding will have Mad-Russah-Girs (fanatic kidnappers) involved in the daily affairs. Who are the Mad-Russah-Girs? huh?

Mullahs!

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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
...And making an Islamic Government, is only about making a few changes to the Constitution, changing our Banking System and we are all set......
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We already have that. You would know if you had been living in Pakistan.

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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
....Kawa chala hans ki chaal....apni chaal bhool geya
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See you are living in UK aloo store or something like it. We have changed this proverb to:

Mullah chala Arrabob ki chaal, to apni chaal be bhool giya (A Mullah loses his character when he starts aping an Arab Biddu)..

So antiobl why dont you tell us what kind of Pakistan do you want to see? Do you want a secular Pakistan(since you believe that Islam and being modern is oxymoron) or do you want any other kind of government in pakistan?

The whole idea about Islamic State does not mean, that we come up one day and enforce Shariah law on the people. This thing has to be implemented from the grass root levels. Make sure Khilafat exists in each and every heart, before.....an Islamic State is established.

Otherwise we gonna end up being just like Iran.

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*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

And Minorites paying Jizya is a completely out dated concept. The Mafia is the only organization that exacts "protection" money. And who the hell are the Minorities paying for protection from????
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Do you not pay taxes? Do muslims not have to pay Zakaah? You tell me one person in your country who lives without paying any sort of taxes.

In an Islamic society Muslims are required to pay Zakaah and non muslims Jizya. There will be no concept of taxes.

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*Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *

And what the hell is modest dress?

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Just have your sutr covered and you are fine. For men, the part from the naval to the knees should be covered. For women the entire except hands and face.

Regarding designer clothes...Spending lavishly is'nt encouraged, but its still allowed.

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*Originally posted by proudpakistani: *
So antiobl why dont you tell us what kind of Pakistan do you want to see? Do you want a secular Pakistan(since you believe that Islam and being modern is oxymoron) or do you want any other kind of government in pakistan?
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Mr. PP, theocracy and secularism aren't the biggest ideas in the world anymore. People dividing the world in these two camps are living in the 1950s. Use your brain, be truthful, trustworthy, and tolerant and you got a good system going. Then name it AOLism. Who cares about the name!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Look you think the Islamic form of government will be run by Harvard graduates? You must be kidding me.
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Why cant a Harvard graduate be a head of an Islamic State? I have no reason to believe why he cant be. Just because you dont think its possible does'nt mean its impossible.

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*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Anything religious sounding will have Mad-Russah-Girs (fanatic kidnappers) involved in the daily affairs. Who are the Mad-Russah-Girs? huh?
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I just feel sorry for you..

You aloo freak

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Mr. PP, theocracy and secularism aren't the biggest ideas in the world anymore. People dividing the world in these two camps are living in the 1950s. Use your brain, be truthful, trustworthy, and tolerant and you got a good system going. Then name it AOLism. Who cares about the name!
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Tell us how a true Islamic State under a proper Caliphate is not truthful, not trustworthy and not tolerant.

You convince me ... and I will give up on my idealogy.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Use your brain, be truthful, trustworthy, and tolerant and you got a good system going.
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A truly Islamic state is this and much, much more than this. To you it may sound old and crappy, but islam is the most modern religion if practiced the right way. Its not islam that has failed, it is us that have failed. Even if we have an islamic government in 2004 or farther, it will be the best run government. Its a promise by Allah and prophet Mohammad(PBUH).

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by proudpakistani: *
...Its not islam that has failed, it is us that have failed. ...
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I am not sure about "us" having failed. Tell us how you have failed?

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*Originally posted by Ranjhan: *
I don’t want to get into a debate with you turnips but you FOBs and Paki nationalists just make me laugh, blind baseless nationalism never did anyone any good.

Without Islam there is no reason for Pakistan’s existence, none whatsoever. If all Pakistan was meant to be was a secular homeland for the minority Muslims then I’m sorry but I think that’s a bit of a turd, we got a crap deal, the only reason Pakistanis feel any passion for Pakistan is because of it’s affiliation with Islam if it’s not got Islam to offer then it’s got nothing absolutely nothing for us, if it was meant to be a secular state then we have been deceived all those years and ‘pretend Islam’ has been used as a tool to stir our emotions, we’ve got neither Deen nor Duniya, with fake promises of Deen they’ve took away our ancient heritage, rich culture and a proper identity which the world looks at with awe and admiration, Mother India has far more to offer on that side than Pakistan ever will (spare me the **** about ancient Dravidian civilisation I’m Aryan my ancestors played no part in them), I would so prefer to be part of a secular India than Pakistan.

I could still be a proper Punjabi and be Indian and even a good Muslim in India, some of the greatest scholars of Deen are from Hind, what has Pakistan got to offer except blind nationalists like you who can’t see past the crony of their nose and Londay-Baaz Mullah’s?

**My great-grandfather was an INDIAN (ps. we're not Mahaajir) and I want to be too, **they practiced their Deen just fine and the Hindus practiced theirs without any problem whatsoever, the only reason for Pakistan’s creation would have been wanting to be ruled by the Laws of Allah other than that a united India was far better than Pakistan.

The two nation theory was a flop ** and most probably a conspiracy, no good has come of it, Bengali genocide (one of the most gruesome and inhumane in modern history), corrupt leaders (every single one of them whether they pretended to profess Islam as an ideology or not have **ed this land up to the max) and other crap I dn’t have the time to delve into, in short the country is a ****ing mess, you’ve nought to be proud of, either accept Islam unconditionally and watch God’s power or rejoin India and the religious minded amongst us can spread the word of God over Hind with peaceful preaching.

PS. Any person who does not believe in the supremacy of Allah’s Law has become an apostate and if he does not repent and re-enter Islam his abode shall be the Hell fire for eternity.
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So what the F are you trying tell us, You want to be a great grand-father (see your statement in bold above)? OR you want to be an Indian? If it is the latter go leave , you won't be missed, good riddance, Tata
Actually I could go on ripping your post to pieces, but don't have time.

Son you are tripping on your own words.
Without Islam.....with Islam... Then without. There is no Law then there law. ooooo---eeeeeee---aaaaaa. Make up your mind and stop smoking that dark brown stuff.
Edit: Your kind must be ashamed to call themselves Pakistani. GhaDar, ***** *****.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *

Tell us how a true Islamic State under a proper Caliphate is not truthful, not trustworthy and not tolerant.

You convince me ... and I will give up on my idealogy.
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LAME. Pakistan was never formed so that some ara-bob khalifah would rule it from his harems back home. You can play khalifah-khalifah all you want, but it aint gonna happen, son.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
ThandyMazaq...i would like to argue on a couple of issues.

Number 1...regarding the rights of non muslims. The cannot take part in the legislative process of the state. Because legislation has to be based on Quran and Sunnah, and they dont believe in it. Philosophically speaking Caliphate belongs to Muslims. Non muslims cannot take part on the highest level of policy making. Because the highest level of policy making revolves around making the Deen of Allah dominant everywhere, and they are not muslims. Non muslims cant suscribe to these to this policy. They can take active part everywhere else, except for these two parts...the Legislative level and the Highest level of policy making.

Secondly...the last question. Scholars governing the society would be a theocracy, as is seen in Iran. This is not a perfect model of an Islamic state. In a more perfect sense and Islamic State....would have advisors who are Scholars. Scholars who are self-sufficient and are not to be paid by the Head of the State. If the Head of the State pays, then the scholars become his employee and are hence expected to be subsurvient to the Head.
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when did i disagree to these things? yeah scholars are not rulers, they are advisors and JUDGES...wallah o alam
and pakpatriot please argue with allah and see his reply on the day of judement, indeed fire is for the arrogant disbelievers.

I shall turn away from My Ayât those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayât , they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness, they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error , they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayât and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them. (Al-A'raf 7:146)

And on the Day of Resurrection you will see those who lied against Allâh their faces will be black. Is there not in Hell an abode for the arrogant ones? (Az-Zumar 39:60)

because allah has made clear the punishments in his book

Cut off the hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allâh. And Allâh is All_Powerful, All_Wise. (Al-Ma'idah 5:38)

O you who believe! Al-Qisâs (the Law of Equality in punishment) is prescribed for you in case of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if the killer is forgiven by the brother (or the relatives, etc.) of the killed against blood money, then adhering to it with fairness and payment of the blood money, to the heir should be made in fairness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. So after this whoever transgresses the limits (i.e. kills the killer after taking the blood money), he shall have a painful torment. (Al-Baqarah 2:178)

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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
.... the slave for the slave, ....
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Thandy, why don't you own slaves these days? Owning slaves is allowed as per Sharia. You are committing sin for not following the Islam?

The reason you don't own slaves is because slavery has been abolished according to the Secular laws. You go against these laws and your behind will be toasted.

Sharia from 1000 years ago was brought in modern day Pakistan with devastating impact on its civil order. We now have Sharia laws that are hurting Pakistanis.

Blasphemy law, the witness law, the laws for economy are the same as the permission to own slaves. Once they are outlawed by the rules of time, you can't bring them back.

Dinosaurs were Allah's creation, He took them back and new form of life began on this earth. Sure you can bring Dinosaurs back in a lab, and so too the laws of Sharia. Bring them back in the Hujra-bazi, we really need to protect those young student from AIDS.

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Owning slaves is allowed as per Sharia
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not true ... Islam does not allow slaves... you have to look at finer details on this subject before making a false statement like this one...

as far as the logic of abolishing Islamic Laws where they colide with State Laws is totally bogus, provided that you have an Islamic State.. why even have Islamic Laws stick with man made laws, go all the way... in an Islamic State it is just Islamic Laws and when they clash with State Laws you take out the State Laws not the other way around... we don't have a single Islamic State in the world that I know of, so I don't see how Islamic Laws can be applied in any of these states...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *

not true ... Islam does not allow slaves... you have to look at finer details on this subject before making a false statement like this one...

as far as the logic of abolishing Islamic Laws where they colide with State Laws is totally bogus, provided that you have an Islamic State.. why even have Islamic Laws stick with man made laws, go all the way... in an Islamic State it is just Islamic Laws and when they clash with State Laws you take out the State Laws not the other way around... we don't have a single Islamic State in the world that I know of, so I don't see how Islamic Laws can be applied in any of these states...
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islam DOES allow slavery, brother there is NO quranic ayah or sunnah that abolishes slavery.

any how antiobl, islam ALLOWES slavery, does not FORCE it. your analogy is wayyy off. saying sharis is useless would be like saying prayer is USELESS because we can get access to allah by just saying anything we want because he hears us right? islamic law holds same value as prayer. they are MANDATORY for a society like prayer is mandatory for individual. your dinosaur analogy is even more pathetic, ALLAH took the dinosaurs back by sending the meteorite, here we have MAN MADE laws taking allah's creation off the map of earth by force...please man your rants are loosing credibility since you claimed USSR's defeat was due to its lack of navy.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
islam DOES allow slavery, brother there is NO quranic ayah or sunnah that abolishes slavery.

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I doubt that... makes no sense what so ever in today's context... but instead of derailing this thread I have opened a new thread on this topic in Religion forum..

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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
.... islamic law holds same value as prayer. they are MANDATORY for a society like prayer is mandatory for individual. ...
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As usual you have no idea about the difference in Haqooq-Allah and Haqooq-ulIbad.

Do whatever you like with your prayer. It is between you and your creator. However I'll disagree when you trample the rights of people.

Allah never wanted people to be hung just because they said "Assalamo Alaikum", or wrote "Alhamdo Lillah" on a Shaadi (marriage) card. Allah didn't want women to get raped and then get stoned due to the lack of 4 witnesses.

People supporting these draconian laws sure belong to the dinosaur era, and are doomed to extinction just like those T-Rexes.