I feel that Pakistan’s best hope to becoming a prosperous nation, in tune with the 21st century, is for it to disgard its restrictive Islamic shroud and full heartedly adopt secularism.
It is the attatchment to medievil ideas that stops Pakistan from utilizing its human resources fully (if the ladies were not kept down by the iron hands of organized religion, they would be a massive economic assett, doubling our workforce), and creates a tyranny of the religious right which is crushing the induvidual freedoms in the nation.
In addition, the power of the Islamist is such that text books are written and censored as to not offend their sensibilities, the impact of this is that we have a generation of children who are not learning the same variety of information as there global counterparts.
A broad secular agenda would encourage an open society, the free flow of ideas and civil libeties, these are the keys to a successful democracy. I hope Musharraf is able to implement those things.
Here here.. Totally agree. About time we got rid of rigid ideology, and adopted flexible and open minded secularism. No more nonsesical impractical laws, no more inflexible and rigid Religous dictations... The only way to truly grow and prosper is toallow for secularism.
Lets take this discussion forward based on facts, shall we..
Secular Turkey of Ataturk, how forward looking is it? Civil liberties, you talk of? Where are they in Ataturk's Turkey? There is no true democracy. The army comes in whenever it wills just like Pakistan.
Think of a better example and a role model than Ataturk. Taking ones clothes off does not make anyone progressive and developed.
So you want to leave behind the reason why Pakistan was made?
Pakistan was not made to be secular and Pakistan will never survive as a secular country.
Pakistan was made to be a modern Islamic state. As someone said in a book that i read once, "Pakistan is an unfinished revolution". Unfortunately it didnt happen, but inshaAllah one day we will be a modern Islamic state that is ruled the way an islamic state should be where everything from banking to economy is run Islamically.
Problem is Munafiqat and exploitation of people and their rights in the name of Islam… Islam is used when it suits people and then it is placed in a safe place when it doesn’t… so basically na ghar kay na ghat kay…. Pakistan has to either go completely secular like LBG said or has to whole heartedly accept Islam and use it in modern times not by changing it but interpreting it based on today’s needs within the prescribed boundaries… Dou kashti ka swar always gets screwed one way or the other…
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*Originally posted by proudpakistani: *
So you want to leave behind the reason why Pakistan was made?
Pakistan was not made to be secular and Pakistan will never survive as a secular country.
Pakistan was made to be a modern Islamic state. As someone said in a book that i read once, "Pakistan is an unfinished revolution". Unfortunately it didnt happen, but inshaAllah one day we will be a modern Islamic state that is ruled the way an islamic state should be where everything from banking to economy is run Islamically.
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Pakistan was made as a country for muslims and others, and not as a theological state. Proof is in the quaid's own speeches. The mullah brigade was against the formation of Pakistan from what I read.
Btw everything from banking to economy will be run islamically when someone can figure out #1 what is it and #2 how tomake it work. Our loud mouth maulana hazraat have no capacity to even start this discussion in a sensible manner.
Pakistan was made as a country for muslims and others, and not as a theological state. Proof is in the quaid's own speeches. The mullah brigade was against the formation of Pakistan from what I read.
Btw everything from banking to economy will be run islamically when someone can figure out #1 what is it and #2 how tomake it work. Our loud mouth maulana hazraat have no capacity to even start this discussion in a sensible manner.
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The proof is in Quaid's speeches that he wanted a modern Islamic country where everything is run the Islamic way. There are many speeches of his that mention this point.
As far as the "Mullah brigade" is concerned, there was a fraction of Jamat-e-Islami that was against formation of pakistan which was led my azad himself. The reason why Muslim league won elections on all muslim seats in India was because all the muslims of India supported Jinnah.
Being an Islamic state is the best option for Pakistan. There is no way that if we make a true Islamic state it will not work. That is why we need scholars, who know what islamc state is supposed to be and not people who think it will not work or dont even know what it is and just go on streets and burn tires.
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*Originally posted by proudpakistani: *
....Pakistan was made to be a modern Islamic state. ...
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huh! Mr. proud, "modern" and "Islamic State" are oxymorons. I thought you knew it by now.
However Modern Muslim state is a neat idea. It is simply a state where Muslims are enlightened, educated, peaceful, industrious, and forward looking. We do have a modern Muslim state like Malayasia. Hopefully Pakistan will become a Modern state where Muslims will live peacefully with other groups and ethnicities.
huh! Mr. proud, "modern" and "Islamic State" are oxymorons. I thought you knew it by now.
However Modern Muslim state is a neat idea. It is simply a state where Muslims are enlightened, educated, peaceful, industrious, and forward looking. We do have a modern Muslim state like Malayasia. Hopefully Pakistan will become a Modern state where Muslims will live peacefully with other groups and ethnicities.
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No antiobl a modern Islamic state is a state that is run the way Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and the Khulfa-e-Rashideen ran the state in a modern world. Please dont compare the muslims of this time with actual Islam. Its just ignorance. If our people learn islam and follow the teachings of Islam, we willl not need any other things. All those things will come with just following Islam the right way.
No antiobl a modern Islamic state is a state that is run the way Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and the Khulfa-e-Rashideen ran the state in a modern world. Please dont compare the muslims of this time with actual Islam. Its just ignorance. If our people learn islam and follow the teachings of Islam, we willl not need any other things. All those things will come with just following Islam the right way.
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I don't buy this Mullahtic stuff that "our people don't learn Islam". There are more than enough people who are very well versed in Islam.
The state set up by Khulafa Rashideen was expanding for sure and yet it was highly unstable. The result was that three out of four Khalifas were murdered in cold blood.
Read "Al-Farooq" and learn how ugly the fight for Khalifa-1 was after the death of the Messenger saw. Most likely the seeds of division (Shia and Sunni) were sown in that crucial month.
The legacy of Khulafa was the war between Ali rah (razialla un hu) and Aysha rah where many Sahaba rah were murdered and killed.
Soon after Yazid maloon was able to murder the dearest of the Messenger saw's grandson.
Read Maw-doodi's book on Usman rah to learn why he was murdered while reading Quran.
Bottom line: The system of Muslim government back then was not entirely different than other systems of that era. There was no voting in Rome, or Persia so Muslims didn't vote either.
Now we have different systems in place, and we have to follow our time.
You are right antibol , that we have to follow our time. Ofcourse we cannot live in the past. As centuries have passed, demand sof time have changed, however the basics are still the same. For example, just as today most of Muslim countries apply either the Common law or the other. What we need is implementation of Quranic law, in matters relating to crimes, division of wealth, inheritence etc. In fact they can be studied and applied by the state (not matoos), according to today's needs. Even with the instability in the times of first 4 rightly guided caliphs, we saw the greatest level of expansion, and growth. It was also the time when it became hard to find poor.
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*Originally posted by legbreakgoogly: *
Religious laws are not wholly suitable to a modern state, as they hinder political and economic development. (Role of women ect)
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How? Please explain...
Regarding role of women, I remember reading in my economics degree how the work done by women at home.should also be accounted for in the GDP. For example, if they prefer to stay home and raise children (which almost all do at some point in life), they are actually contributing to the overall development of the country by raisng and trainig healthy kids. Nobody can deny that a nanny cannot be a substitute for a real mother. So if some work outside, they have to hire a baby sitter whom they pay. So why are you so adament that women have to be kicked out of the house and exploited, while men can do that job. Why don't you just think on your own and realize that women by staying in home and raising a family are doing a great favor and an "ihsaan" on the husband and kids.
However, there are so many jobs that women can do Islamically such as teaching in a women's school or being doctors for females only , or being nurses for females only. There can even be women's only markets. They can do business if they want , under Islamic conditions. The society that Islam creates is the most perfect.
huh! Mr. proud, "modern" and "Islamic State" are oxymorons. I thought you knew it by now.
We do have a modern Muslim state like Malayasia. Hopefully Pakistan will become a Modern state where Muslims will live peacefully with other groups and ethnicities.
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Very well said antiobl.....i totally agree with you...hell with stupid arrogant idiot turkish...No, Ataturk and turkish people are not our model by any means because they are lost and beggars....But malaysia is my role model......there are at least 3 major religions in Malaysia and yet all of them are living peacefully......and Dr Mahatir could be my role model not ataturk......Actually Jinnah himself is an ideal role model if we want to......And yes i totally support the term Modern Muslim State
To add tto your info, in our role model state of Malaysia, non-Muslims although are around 50%, they still cannot hold a governemnt ministerial seat. Thats how it is supposed to be. Islam is truth and HAqq! Non-Muslims cannot rule us in any way in an Islamic state.
To all those Muslims who believe that an Islamic Government will hinder politcal and economic growth, i just want to tell them that it just disgusts me, when Muslims come out and make such statements.
Islam was the first religion to introduce a publicly elected form of government. There was no concept of democracy before Islam. Islam was the relgion that transformed the rural Arabs, 1420 years ago, to major super power. It was because of Islamic teaching, that muslims made gigantic leaps, in areas of science, medicine, math, navigation...etc. It was the Islamic teachings that allowed Muslim Spain to be one of the best places on Earth to live in, while the rest of Continental Europe was suffering from The Plague and had been engrossed by darkness and barbarism.
Why cant we just depend on Allah. Why are we worried about human resources and other stuff? When we have the Ultimate Source, who wants to help us. We have seen him help us in the past, why cant we just turn back to him one more time. Why do we have to copy the infidels, and adapt their ways of living. Where has the prestige gone, where is the self respect and self esteem. Where is the courage that once made the..then Super Powers tremble with fear.
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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
To all those Muslims who believe that an Islamic Government will hinder political and economic growth,...
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Check out the wonderful implementation of Islamic governments in Iran, Afghanistan and in Frontier, Pakistan. Tell us how quickly these areas are growing "politically", and "economically", and "shan-tifi-cally". Anyone who had an iota of belief that Mullahtic idiotics can provide good governance, now swears against Mullahism.
If on the other hand you want to discuss how a plutonic state in the year 4040 AD, under supreme Mullahs would be cool, I'd say bring it on brother. While doing so, please bring Karl Marx, Lennon, and Stalin along. They were all talking about this wonderful welfare state to be perfected in the year 4040.
