Nonody wants an Islamic state under mullah rule (like iran, NWFP, etc..), we want an islamic state under ISLAMIC rule. These days most (not all) mullahs have done more harm to the cause of Islam than good.
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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
To all those Muslims who believe that an Islamic Government will hinder politcal and economic growth, i just want to tell them that it just disgusts me, when Muslims come out and make such statements.
Islam was the first religion to introduce a publicly elected form of government. There was no concept of democracy before Islam. Islam was the relgion that transformed the rural Arabs, 1420 years ago, to major super power. It was because of Islamic teaching, that muslims made gigantic leaps, in areas of science, medicine, math, navigation...etc. It was the Islamic teachings that allowed Muslim Spain to be one of the best places on Earth to live in, while the rest of Continental Europe was suffering from The Plague and had been engrossed by darkness and barbarism.
Why cant we just depend on Allah. Why are we worried about human resources and other stuff? When we have the Ultimate Source, who wants to help us. We have seen him help us in the past, why cant we just turn back to him one more time. Why do we have to copy the infidels, and adapt their ways of living. Where has the prestige gone, where is the self respect and self esteem. Where is the courage that once made the..then Super Powers tremble with fear.
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I aggree with you sharaabi. We have tried everything is Pakistan. Democracy and dictatorship. Its about time we go forward and establish an Islamic government, the reason why pakistan was made. And i believe its only a matter of time before it happens. InshaAllah
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*Originally posted by proudpakistani: *
.. We have tried everything is Pakistan. Democracy and dictatorship. .
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and we have tried Islamic system as well. I know it is hard to get Pakistani news in UK aloo stores. FYI we have Sharia law in criminal and economic spheres.
Check out the interest free banking for Islamic implementation.
Sharia law with its draconian measures against women and minorities has really helped the image of Islam so far.
So we have tried democracy, dictatorship, Islamic rule, and we in Pakistan are all content (relatively speaking) with the dictatorship. So you live with Queens rule in UK aloo stores, and let's live with General's rule here in Pakistan. Thank you.
lets make it more logical
and then people would complain that there are no women teachers to teach their daughters, or women doctors to treat their female relatives.
if all ladies “work” at home, toh phir toh ho chukka kaam.
impractical approach, scratch the surface of your proposed plan and all kinds of issues surface.
even if it is a mirror image of a society where women only work with women, how do u get there, how would they get educated to get to that level, and if someone has the capacity and interest to do more, why stop them? i mean someone working on a space shuttle project cant work in an all women team now can she..the expertise required would make it imperative that experts form both genders work together, same goes for doctors in case of surgeries.
plus if I recall, women did work with men even during the prophet’s time, including his wife, so whats the dealio.
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*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Read "Al-Farooq" and learn how ugly the fight for Khalifa-1 was after the death of the Messenger saw. Most likely the seeds of division (Shia and Sunni) were sown in that crucial month.
Read Maw-doodi's book on Usman rah to learn why he was murdered while reading Quran.
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I dont want to take this topic on a tangent, but your above sentences intrigued me, could you either start a diff thread on this or just PM me this info. thanks
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
lets make it more logical
and then people would complain that there are no women teachers to teach their daughters, or women doctors to treat their female relatives.
if all ladies "work" at home, toh phir toh ho chukka kaam.
impractical approach, scratch the surface of your proposed plan and all kinds of issues surface.
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Mr. Fraudia, before your quick reaction, i think you forgot to read this:
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However, there are so many jobs that women can do Islamically such as teaching in a women's school or being doctors for females only , or being nurses for females only. There can even be women's only markets. They can do business if they want , under Islamic conditions. The society that Islam creates is the most perfect.
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mr laeeq khan
I was further elaborating my post when you quoted me, please go back and re-read, your theory of women only working with women is impractical.
I knew that I would have to spell it out which I did.
if you want women docs in all specialties and in sufficient numbers to provide coverage to all women, where do u start..how many do u have to get educated from elementary through med school? do you have teachers, lab techs, administrators, etc etc in sufficient numbers to be abe to educate such a large number, if not you have to build that base first, and then to build that base u have to see if the base to educate this group which will help the future crop of docs exists.
basically how long would it take to turn 100 women docs into 100 thousand?
and oh, since men should not be teaching them, the rate of growth will be so slow that it would take decsades to get there,
btw what happens to those who want to get educayted, or treated, or err need an accountant or a financial analyst or a dentist, or a therapist in the meantime, cuz they cant really go to men now, can they?
laikin, kehna toh asaan hai na
Pakistan's alright. To take it in the right direction i think it should do the following:
scratch the blasphemy law and hudood law. The state should pay women who want to stay at home and raise their children.
I think for starters this is enough to bring about a grass-root change in the society. But as usual I'm sure policy makers will do their best to mess things up.
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*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
The state should pay women who want to stay at home and raise their children..
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The state cant pay primary bread earners who cant find work, let alone pay stay at home moms. before the state pays stay at home moms it needs to tell them a few things about family planning as well.
There are women who work due to economic necessity, those who work to pursue an interest, those who just do it for the hell of it, and those who are a combo of above.
Why should the state pay for stay at home moms?
Its that's the moms choice, good for her. That family can just suffer the economic consequences o having only 1 primary earner.
At the very basic level its an empowerment issue. But I'm sure there are other benefits too. The overall benefits I think would outweigh the input needed. Make it conditional if you want.
I think thats an idea being floated in preparation for the forthcoming UK elections.
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*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
.....scratch the blasphemy law and hudood law. .....
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You got it dude. Mullahdom must be kicked out of Pakistan. It is about time.
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*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
..... The state should pay women who want to stay at home and raise their children.......
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Baba! We ought to stay away from "Show-Shaw-list" (socialist) policies. Change the tax rate for kiddi shops if you want, but no handouts or dole outs by the government. It is government not God-enment.
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*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Check out the wonderful implementation of Islamic governments in Iran, Afghanistan and in Frontier, Pakistan. Tell us how quickly these areas are growing "politically", and "economically", and "shan-tifi-cally". Anyone who had an iota of belief that Mullahtic idiotics can provide good governance, now swears against Mullahism.
If on the other hand you want to discuss how a plutonic state in the year 4040 AD, under supreme Mullahs would be cool, I'd say bring it on brother. While doing so, please bring Karl Marx, Lennon, and Stalin along. They were all talking about this wonderful welfare state to be perfected in the year 4040.
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I think you should stop worrying abt UK aloo stores....and start reading more. Iran has a theocracy, which is not the the ideal Islamic state. The Talibans of Afghanistan did'nt set up the ideal state either, cause they transgressed. And Pakistan? Pakistan still has a long way to go before being anywhere close to an Islamic State.
Regarding those three gentlemen u mentioned, i dont know what u trying to prove here. The on going discussion is about setting up an Islamic State, i dont know how these three athiests fit into the equation.
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*Originally posted by antiobl: *
You got it dude. Mullahdom must be kicked out of Pakistan. It is about time.
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Its about time we wake up and recognize the major problem with us, before its too late. Many thinkers have already predicted the breaking up of Pakistan in the near future.
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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
....Many thinkers have already predicted the breaking up of Pakistan in the near future.
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"Khasiani Billi Khamba Nowchay" (any takers on translating this?). First you want to bring Mullahtic Fascistic idiotics to power in Pakistan. On failing to win the argument, you are trying to spill the whole "hawndi" (soup pot) and pronounce the destruction of my beloved country.
Damn these Aloo store residents of UK. They are so anti-Pakistan. Poor Mullahtic idiotic followers.
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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
....Regarding those three gentlemen u mentioned [Karl Marx, Lennon, and Stalin], i dont know what u trying to prove here. The on going discussion is about setting up an Islamic State, i dont know how these three athiests fit into the equation.
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Karl Marx, Lennon, and Stalin were all fascists hell bent on spreading chaos in the world. So they should be given the same honors as the Mullahtic idiotics.
Would that mean taking the "Islamic Republic" of Pakistan out of its Name? and renaming it to Pakistan only. Oh and what about changing the flag and dividing it equally among white and green, than the current 1/8th that white has on the flag that is.
For guppies unaware white on the flag represents minorities.
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*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Would that mean taking the "Islamic Republic" of Pakistan out of its Name? and renaming it to Pakistan only.
Oh and what about changing the flag .....
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These are just symbols and we shouldn’t lose energy on these petty issues.
Name it Buddhist republic if you want. What really matters is the "good governance" resulting in healthy economy and jobs. You know the same things that allow some of us to live a good life in NY.
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*Originally posted by antiobl: *
"Khasiani Billi Khamba Nowchay" (any takers on translating this?). First you want to bring Mullahtic Fascistic idiotics to power in Pakistan. On failing to win the argument, you are trying to spill the whole "hawndi" (soup pot) and pronounce the destruction of my beloved country.
Damn these Aloo store residents of UK. They are so anti-Pakistan. Poor Mullahtic idiotic followers.
Karl Marx, Lennon, and Stalin were all fascists hell bent on spreading chaos in the world. So they should be given the same honors as the Mullahtic idiotics.
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Whats you facination with Aloos? Whos a Uk resident? I never said Mullah's should come to power. Quote me where i said...i want those present day MMA or any other Mullah to come to power. All i said .. that, we should adopt an Islamic Form of Government cause that was the sole reason why Pakistan was built. And making an Islamic Government, is only about making a few changes to the Constitution, changing our Banking System and we are all set.
As far as the destruction of Pakistan is concerned. It has already happened in the past. We lost one half of our country cause of our disobedience to Allah. I see your good with sayings...well i got one for you.
Kawa chala hans ki chaal....apni chaal bhool geya
I would just like to know what an Islamic state is...
What sort of laws for example will govern our daily lives?
Are we allowed to listen to music? Are we allowed to talk to women, to see them on the streets? Do all women have to wear Burqa? Are women allowed to work alongside men in offices etc. If we are a non muslim minority are we allowed to practice our religion without fear? Is the state going to treat all citizens as equal? Is the state going to be bias in its treatment of citizens? How do we dress in an Islamic state? What is our cultural identity? Must we give up everything that is deemed unislamic? Who is the one interpreting Islamic laws, what makes these laws binding? What happens if we choose to interpret the religion differently?
Do we get to have decapitation and stoning be comman practice in punishing criminals and adulterers? Does one womens testimony equal that of four men? Can rape be prosecuted without the presence of 4 noble and upright Muslim men?
Who governs this society? Who determines what is Islamic and whats not Islamic?
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Originally posted by PaKpatriot1: *
I would just like to know what an Islamic state is...
What sort of laws for example will govern our daily lives?
* sharia of muhamma will govern our lives, no other defination of what will govern us **
Are we allowed to listen to music?
** there wont be public concerts for sure, neither will there be any legal music selling/making in the country, u can do anything u want at ur home **
Are we allowed to talk to women, to see them on the streets?
** women will wear clothes that will cover their awrah, which includes at minimum of their hair...there is difference about if face is required or not **
Do all women have to wear Burqa?
** see above**
Are women allowed to work alongside men in offices
** nothing that will invite temptation. you cant have mini skirt wearing secerataries for the pleasure of the boss **
etc. If we are a non muslim minority are we allowed to practice our religion without fear?
** yes you are as long as you pay jizya the protection tax**
Is the state going to treat all citizens as equal?
** pretty much, but a muslim can not be killed for killing a non muslim, he can get other punishment for the murder but not death. like wise muslims and non muslims cannot inherit from each otehr **
Is the state going to be bias in its treatment of citizens?
** non muslims will have some restrictions but on the whole justice will be implemented **
How do we dress in an Islamic state?
** modest dress, westren dress for men in public is not forbidden,**
What is our cultural identity?
** anything cultural that does not contradict islam is tolerated **
Must we give up everything that is deemed unislamic?
** if it is unislamic it will not be tolerated in public you can do it at home **
Who is the one interpreting Islamic laws,
** schoalrs of the day and past **
what makes these laws binding?
** the government**
What happens if we choose to interpret the religion differently?
** do you have enough credentials to interpret it? if you do then you could debate with government scholars and if u r right then ur opinion rules **
Do we get to have decapitation and stoning be comman practice in punishing criminals and adulterers?
** do we even have to ask? is the command of allah in quran not enough for us to implement it ? why do we have to make these noises of "humanist" approach even though quran and sunnah are clear about huduud??**
Does one womens testimony equal that of four men?
** you are dumb, quran makes the testimoney of women equal to "2" men, where the hell did u pull 4 from? **
Can rape be prosecuted without the presence of 4 noble and upright Muslim men?
** i m not sure about the ruling on the rape evidence but the 4 witnesses are requred for concentual sex not rape, **
Who governs this society? Who determines what is Islamic and whats not Islamic?
** scholars**
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