today what we have as “islamic” laws are not islamic. you cant hold that against sharia. your sense of islamic knowledge is known when you equate so called islamic laws made by non scholars to the sharia sent by Allah.
but i wont debate with you now. you reject what allah has sent and do not show remorse in your rejection for the book of allah and the sunnah of his rasul :saw: so no point in even talking to you.
asalam o alykum
to me my religion and to you your.
What guarantees would non-muslims have if true islamic law (as you put it) were to be implemented in pakistan?
What they “non-muslims” have been through so far with the little sharia we have implemented in pakistan has been dismal (in other words non-muslims have been persecuted, and badly too at that). It has been “0”. Hezbollah has done a better job in Lebanaon, Syria and Parts of Paelstine than Mullahs of Pakistan, have in Pakistan.
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*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *
today what we have as "islamic" laws are not islamic. ...
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Care to explain what "Islamic" laws are not islamic.
Better yet, send an open letter to MMA and tell them that hadood laws are not Islamic. They will promptly toast your a$$.
p.s. You still haven't figured out the difference between Haqooq Allah, vs. Haqooq ul-Ibaad.
You can’t just create an Islamic State out of the blue and then expect it to address people’s issues and problems using some magic wand.
Anytime you setout to do something that affects the majority you take them into confidence and you get their support and then you pursue it if you want to have any chance for success. In a way it is democracy, you convince the majority and they back you on it. Where do you have that to establish an Islamic State?
Ground reality is yes people are sick and tired of the lack of security, jobs, health care, education, and basic necessities of life but how would an Islamic State solve those issues and please don’t go back and give examples of the times of Khalifahs because we do not live in those times, people and their perceptions have changed there are new realities on the ground. People are sick of Mullahs and the Islam that they have been preaching, it has brought more misery and destruction than anything else. These are the same people who are sick of politicians like BB, Nawaz, and Altaf they would rather give up democracy and live under military rule because it gave them some relief in some ways, right or wrong that is another discussion. You have to understand people’s needs and where they are coming from instead of subjecting them to someone’s interpretation of Islam and its laws.
If you really want to see how the concept of Islamic State got started you have to look at the context of it as well. See what were the circumstances at the time, what were the needs, why it became so popular and widely accepted.
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*Originally posted by Verizon: *
What guarantees would non-muslims have if true islamic law (as you put it) were to be implemented in pakistan?
What they "non-muslims" have been through so far with the little sharia we have implemented in pakistan has been dismal (in other words non-muslims have been persecuted, and badly too at that). It has been "0". Hezbollah has done a better job in Lebanaon, Syria and Parts of Paelstine than Mullahs of Pakistan, have in Pakistan.
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life and honor of non muslims will be protected at all costs. if law and order situation breaks down and th govt cant bring it back the government will have to return the money given by non muslims (but muslim money will not be returned) because govt. failed in its obligation to protect lifes and honor of ppl. so it gives u an idea of how just the system will be.
^^ No it doesn't give me any idea. TM its not about money or that J word i think "Jazia". It's about competing and having equal rights and living in a society comprising of humans (regardless of race,religion, ethnic background)
Life and Honor will be protected. Darling the muslims L and H are not protected, how is tge non-muslims Land H protected.
I hate to bring this in but the Muslims track record with imposing sharia in Sudan has resulted in ethnic cleansing. The results are not in favor of Muslims.
BTW the most silliest thing that I have read so far is see below:
"if law and order situation breaks down and th govt cant bring it back the government will have to return the money given by non muslims (but muslim money will not be returned)"
Law and order breaks down, non-muslims are locked into their houses and the houses set on fire all occupants of the house die. Who are you gonna give the money too?
Edit: Oh and it says "will have to", so you are not even sure that it will, you are assuming that it will.
man what is wrong in believing that one say we will have true muslims running the show? can we not believe that allah has power to give muslims who have pure hearts power to run a country? we have been living in secular world all of our lives, and have heard of (i doubt any one here has lived thru) failed experiments in islamic implementation but i like to believe that one day we will have the nation like the one established in medina. the one ruled by muhammad bin abdullah :saw:, then abu bakr then umar 
. yes we had uprising by khawariji in uthmans time and after those years of tribulation we had kings of ummayds, but for the common man the islamic govt was present. yes we had kings hoarding wealth but we also had ships sent to conquer sindh for the cry of one muslim sister. we also had tariq bin ziyad burning his ships on gibraltar and establishing al andulus the land of security and prosperity for all. we had people who could come from bhukhara at very young age and study in madina and baghdad. those were times when muslim honor was not threatened by foriegn armies. that is the land i want. it was when muslims could trade from indonesia to borders of europe while not leaving ther country. they could go to the deserts of sahara and the mountains of central asia and not venture out of the islamic lands. it had its problems but majority of the ppl enjoyed peace and security and thats what i want. i dont know if i will see it or not but no one can take dreams away from men.
^^ Have you seen the movie Aladin? It's really cool. Your post reminded me of that.
"there were times when Muslim Honor" Is that Honor Killings, Beheadings, Executions Stadium style, Mandatory Beards, 4 wives etc?
TM dream on and I hope your dream doesn't come true.
You are toying with Ummah and Caliphate type structures that were applicable in the past but won't apply now. It was pretty apparant when Col Qadaffi took over Libya and the next day called Nasser (or who ever was running egypt) asking to join libya with egypt as a muslim brotherhood. Qadaffi was rudely awakened. That was 30+ yrs ago.
*Who is going to be the caliph of all these disparate nations? How are the muslims gonna vote for this?
*Why should a Paki Muslim listen to a Uighur Chinese Caliph? Yeah that is going to go well with the Saudi Arabians. Can a black Sudanese Muslin be a Caliph (in reality)
*Is Iran Going to be included in this dream or we are being selective and leaving them out?
*What about Turkey they are ready and eager to join EU, are they gonna come out and join Ummah or can they have dual citizenship.
ok, what good governance do we have now? if lying, and manipulation to keep a person in power good governance, then God save Pakistan...
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*Originally posted by antiobl: *
These are just symbols and we shouldn’t lose energy on these petty issues.
Name it Buddhist republic if you want. What really matters is the "good governance" resulting in healthy economy and jobs. You know the same things that allow some of us to live a good life in NY.
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i thought there might be room for mod muslims in any future for islam, but after your this comment i wont even reply to your post.
it is clear what the so called mod muslims, who should be better called mod kafirs really want.
didnt i mention the ruling style of muhammad :saw:? abu bakar ? i was being ideal and you mention aladin. you could have said that the sincere people like abu bakar and umar are not present so your dream is not “realistic” but you said i hope your dream never comes true. it is obvious what you mean. you say you dont hope that the ruling style of rasul of allah is back? thats it, i m done with mod muslims on this forum or what ever. i might come back some other day and start posting or whatever but for now i m done for talking with kafirs. thats it i called those people who dont like the ruling of muhammad as kafirs. i also called those who dont like the ruling of allah as kafirs and i m one of those who submit to allah in full submission.
Have you seen those who claim that they believe in that which has been sent down to you, and that which was sent down before you, and they wish to go for judgement to the Tâghût. while they have been ordered to reject them. But Shaitân (Satan) wishes to lead them far astray. (An-Nisa 4:60)
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (An-Nisa 4:65)
Surely, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’ân) in truth that you might judge between men by that which Allâh has shown you (i.e. has taught you through Divine Inspiration), so be not a pleader for the treacherous. (An-Nisa 4:105)
And so judge (you O Muhammad SAW) between them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad SAW) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh). (Al-Ma’idah 5:49)
Do they then seek the judgement of Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allâh for a people who have firm Faith. (Al-Ma’idah 5:50)
And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. (Al-Ma’idah 5:48)
And when they hear Al_Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: “To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant.” (Al-Qasas 28:55)
Dude…dont call someone kaafir. Rasool Allah, may peace and blessing be upon him, said…when a person calls another person kaafir, one of them becomes a kaafir right there and then. So never do that, its a grave sin.
I know some of our mod muslims have gone of the right path. People have forgotten the truth in the name of liberalism and secularism…but it is our job to try to educate them. To show them look…look at all the faults with the current system.
Noah (A.S) did Da’wah for more than 900 years…can we not be a bit more patient?
TM Thunday ho yaar mazak kar raha ta, cool down man. What I meant by Aladin was the era not the governing style of the calipha/s that you mention. It is a good movie. I didn’t mean to pi$$ on your dreams, however those are not healthy or constructive dreams. But anyway Naraz na ho. One should learn from history not try to re-live it.
I can see by your writing that you are well versed in religion, but that doesn’t give you the right to call others kafirs. Not that I personally care just making an observation.
Islamic Pakistan Illusion and Reality:
http://www.imaginepakistan.com/node/110
Rather than debate without the facts, read the facts, then debate! I think the rude awakening is in the fact of how Islam has been exploited and how history has shown that in today’s world Islam will only be abused by the power hungry.