Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
burqaposh you said
[QUOTE]
Many Sunnis in Pakistan do not listen the Arabic version of Jumman Khutba. Otherwise they would notice that Mullah says that on every Friday ---
------ Mun Ahaan-al-Sultan, Ahaan Allah.
[/QUOTE]
Now you have claimed that Mullah sas that on every Friday! !
While i have never heard that in my life.
Isn't it a shameful act to ascribe a lie to fellow muslims? And if its not a lie plz show me the proof.
burqaposh you said
Now you have claimed that Mullah sas that on every Friday! !
While i have never heard that in my life.
Isn't it a shameful act to ascribe a lie to fellow muslims? And if its not a lie plz show me the proof.
I have heard it.
Your ignorance doesn't mean others are lying.
I have heard it.
Your ignorance doesn't mean others are lying.
Fine, i won't contradict that you might have heard it, but saing that sunnis don't listen to this statement which their Mullahs say in every Friday is quite an exaggeration.
The real issue is addressed here;
I am confused about something. Since when does being a Muslim mean one has to be ruled by clerics? Where does one come up with such a ****ed up conclusion?
The problem with individuals who grow up in the West is that they have a very limited knowledge on Islam, Islamic history and rise of different forms of government in the Islamic world. I find it extremely interesting that the original author quotes Western thinkers, but does not do the same of Islamic thinkers who espouse similar views. It is a simple matter of ignorance on their part.
Being a Muslim means you accept that Islam is part of your life in every aspect. You can not pick and choose what you want to do or not do.
extremly right :)
Being a Muslim means you accept that Islam is part of your life in every aspect. You can not pick and choose what you want to do or not do.
In a secular system there is no hindrance for an individual to accept Islam as a part of your life in every aspect. In fact there is no hinderance to follow whatever faith as it pleases him.
The matter of choices is not related to private choices of individuals. The problem is when the advocates of Islamic system want to impose their choices on society at large. Quran clearly advocates a secular system for a society, so if you want to adopt a secular system and still insist on calling it an Islamic system there is no harm in it. The system being advocated by Islamic clergy where personal choices of people are curbed in the name of Islamic system are totally unacceptable:
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)
“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)
“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ ** If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message.** And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)
Just read the last verse. It clearly says the allowed course of action. However the advocates of Islamic system want to impose the system on a society (not on themselves as individuals only) by compulsion and government authority.
^^^
To add further to the above mentioned comment...
In a non religious secular system.... state does not have any concerns with the sins in a religious sense... it prosecutes only the crimes which affect the other individuals or society at large...
A non religious secular system does not mean that people do not have the liberty to follow their faith/religion freely on individual or collective basis in every aspect of their lives...
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Wrong Yazdi. In Switzerland and specific other EU countries you can not kill animals in the Halal manner. A violation of religious freedom, yet it is deemed illegal. Secular countries do not protect religious freedoms of miniroities. By all means look at France.
Mindstorm, seriously. You are going use the Quran to say that Islam states you can pick and choose what you want to follow and what you don't? You know how *ing stupid that is? Basically you have stated that according to the faith you can decide not to pray or not believe in the oneness of Allah and still be a muslim. Really? You really that *ing stupid?
Now by means answer that question and then we go on with your idiotic notion that the Quran states we are to have a secular system of governance, where the edicts of Islam do not apply.
Wrong Yazdi. In Switzerland and specific other EU countries you can not kill animals in the Halal manner. A violation of religious freedom, yet it is deemed illegal. Secular countries do not protect religious freedoms of miniroities. By all means look at France.
Mindstorm, seriously. You are going use the Quran to say that Islam states you can pick and choose what you want to follow and what you don't? You know how *ing stupid that is? Basically you have stated that according to the faith you can decide not to pray or not believe in the oneness of Allah and still be a muslim. Really? You really that *ing stupid?
Now by means answer that question and then we go on with your idiotic notion that the Quran states we are to have a secular system of governance, where the edicts of Islam do not apply.
every secular country has different laws, there are secular countries that have Eid as national holiday and you can kill animals in halal manner. Just because a country is an islamic republic that does not guarantee it protects the religious freedom of its minorities. In how many islamic arabic countries can you build a hindu temple or a jewish synagogue???
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Blah blah blah. Yazdi said
[quote]
A non religious secular system does not mean that people do not have the liberty to follow their faith/religion freely on individual or collective basis in every aspect of their lives...
[/quote]
Proved him wrong in that manner. Religious freedoms of minorities are not protected in secular countries.
Mindstorm, seriously. You are going use the Quran to say that Islam states you can pick and choose what you want to follow and what you don't? You know how *ing stupid that is? Basically you have stated that according to the faith you can decide not to pray or not believe in the oneness of Allah and still be a muslim. Really? You really that *ing stupid?
.
Seriously you have a severe problem in understanding simple English.
Where did I say without believing in Allah you can be a Muslim. Of course Allah will punish people in the hereafter according to Islamic faith. We are discussing the role of a community not the punishments in the hereafter by Allah.
I proved you from Quran that Islam endorses a secular system, which ensures religious freedom for everyone. I am not defending the secular system of Switzerland or EU. I just gave you evidence from Quran the Quranic secular system. All religious crimes have to be left to Allah for punishment, giving complete freedom to individuals and groups to practice their faith. The maximum you can do is to inform them the message of Allah. For the social governance leave Islam out of it to create an Islamic secular system. A clergy system being followed in a lot of Muslim countries where others can not follow their faith is against the teachings of Quran!!!
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
No you proved nothing. What you did was specifically quote various lines from the Quran that are not interlinked and said they apply to Secular government. That is not proof. That is you falsely interpretating the Quran.
Now the question is for 1400 years muslims have been governed by various forms of Islamic rule. Yet they all made mistakes and should haven formed a secular government because that is what the Quran states.
Since you used the CRCC website for quotes. Let use that for Surah 109. Which is Al Kafiroon. You know what that means? I hope you do. Because it has nothing to do with secular government. What it does state is as follows:
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
You essentially using the Surah that defines the concept of a Kafir as saying Secular government is acceptibl. But at no stages do any of the verses deal with anything related to government, community or law.
Hell the first Ayat of the surah is addressing the Kufar. Rejecters of faith. Unbelievers. I guess that means secular government in your warped mind.
I suggest you read the Surah before 109. Read 108 and what it says about the Kufar. I guess that doesn’t apply to a secular government where the Quran states those who reject Allah and his message will burn in hell.
Many on this thread do not realize that in Islam there are two kinds of duties/rights.
Allah never says that a so called Islamic state MUST enforce Haqooq Allah. Why? because if you do not offer salat, then it is between you and Allah. And no Mullah can come around and punish you for not offering salat. Same thing with Hujj, roza, etc. It is upto Allah to judge if we have faith being a Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Hindu, Christian, Sikh, Jew etc. No Mullah can do an open heart surgery and figure out someone's faith. Only Allah knows. And thus Haqooq Allah must be judged by Allah and Allah alone.
Haqooq Ibad on the other hand is something that the "society" aka Pakistani quom should observe. because if we don't then we'll punished for these on the day of judgement for sure. Why because we as mere mortals can judge in a reasonable manner, that a person didn't pay his taxes (zakat), or lied, or was dishonest, or was intolerant to fellow human beings, or he didn't drive within lane.
So whatever system you enforce be it Islamic or secular must be concerned with Haqooq Ibad and cannot and should not enforce Haqooq Allah.
Mind you stopping someone from practicing a faith is under Haqooq Ibad
But
how you practice a faith is in your heart and your private matter.
Thus a good system ensures that you could practice your faith.
If our Kalima says "Only Allah swt is worthy of our worship, and Mohammad pbuh is the Messenger of Allah", then that's the ONLY thing we seek.
And no JUST government should stop us fro believing that. If a Muslim is offering a prayer at his home, then no just government should stop him. If a Muslim is fasting, a just government will be OK with that.
Mind you that a government can in the interest of society "designate" or "regulate" certain practices if they are done in public.
A Muslim may not be allowed to park his car in the middle of road (or other public place) and offer a prayer if it is against the law. However a just government would offer an alternative by designating an area, a building etc. that allows a Muslim to pray.
Any government that allows Muslims to fulfill Haqooq Allah in our homes or in designated areas, is a good government and we don't care if it is called Islamist or secular.
Any government that protects Haqooq Ibad from being trampled by other citizens, is acceptable to us regardless of its name.
I just want to say this secularism is not gonna work. isalm has best system there can not be any error, what every we make the rules or other thing can have error but Islamic system is introduced by Allah, so no chance of error.
**
**
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Neither. Pakistan doesn't need to be ruled by any innovative titles. Stick to Quran and Sunnah, live by example of Prophet's time in today's circumstances, and governance and daily affairs will be dealt with fairly.
The issue with us today is that both crooks, those who claim to represent skewed image of Islam and those who abhor it, get away with crimes which otherwise should be punishment worthy.
When Pakistani system of Justice works to make an example of anyone breaking the law, or committing a crime against their fellow countrymen, all pieces will start to fall in place. The issue is not how, but just when?
If we can just make an example of one grand crook, one grand treacherous person, one grand thief, the rest will take lesson from it and truly start to serve the nation the way their job titles require them to. Accountability is the issue.
When people do not see justice being served, and slick crooks getting away while the poor citizens bears the full brunt of law and then some, then they resort to other means of justice. These poor souls then fall prey to propagandist "Islamists" who in reality are Abu Jahals of our time.
Islam is a just system, a fair way of life, and the best way to live, so long as it is not "personalized" or changed. Too many today want to change things in it so that it may suit them better, and thus begins the tussle between Islamism vs. Secularism. Action creates Re-Action, and so on, and so forth.
Both ends of the spectrum are just as dangerous.
....... When people do not see justice being served, and slick crooks getting away while the poor citizens bears the full brunt of law and then some, then they resort to other means of justice. These poor souls then fall prey to propagandist "Islamists" who in reality are Abu Jahals of our time. .....
This is a good way to assess why Islamism is popular among Pakistanis and especially UK/US settled ones.
But it is a gross misrepresentation of facts and figures.
We the Pakistani educated elite are taught lies in the name of Islam,
And then without any awareness of the true historical facts,
we start believing in the "miracle" that would happen the moment we implement Sharia.
And the reason we believe in lies, because the whole Islamic history is wrapped in the holy green cloth, and thus above and beyond any scientific scrutiny.
If we truly knew that Khilafat Rashida was utter failure if we analyzed it based on the modern factors such as governance and stability,
Then we would look elsewhere for a model of our government and try to figure out how we could improve it.
But we don't want to improve our existing system, because temptation of "magical implementation" of sharia is so strong based on our made up "glorious history" of Islam.
....... ........Islam is a just system, a fair way of life, and the best way to live, so long as it is not "personalized" or changed. ...
This statement is a clear example about miseducation about our religion.
Islam never brought a brand new system. Just look at the contemporaries of any Khalifa.
Do you think the system of government of Hazrat Umer rah was any different from the emperors of Byzantine or Africans or Iranian?
No! The system was pretty much the same, with minor adjustments.
And yes, Umer rah as a "person" was different, but the system of government was purely tribal that was very similar to the other tribal systems in the region.
FYI! System of government may constitute aspects like: finance, judiciary, bureaucracy, and military.
If you look at these aspects, Muslim finance, judiciary etc. were all setup in the exact same way as his contemporaries had done.
Thus the best of the Khalifas use the same system as other governments of their time. The only difference one could see in some cases was that perhaps the system was run a little bit better under some of the Khalifas.
So anyone who talks about Islamic system today, is simply showing us the snapshot of tribal system that was in place in the world 1400 years ago.
As the tribal system has gone obsolete for most of the civilized world today, we cannot implement the same Islamic system that was practiced by Umer rah.
....... ..... thus begins the tussle between Islamism vs. Secularism. Action creates Re-Action, and so on, and so forth....
The tussle is not between Islamism and secularism. The tussle is between people who want to reimpose obsolete tribalism and the modern world.
Can there be a tussle between a donkey cart and a modern airplane?
Heck no! they belong to different eras, and totally different modes of transportation.
Donkey cart belongs to the era when people lived in huts, tents and caves. You cannot use the donkeys on a modern highway system let alone fly it. (well you could sort off fly a donkey if you fed him bagfuls of chickpeas :) )
Thus the tussle between Islamism and modern systems only exists in the decaying minds of Mullahs and their followers.
For the rest of the world, it is just a $tupid tamasha, a drama that they can only laugh or cry about.
Do you ever wonder how Sahaba would react if by a miracle they become alive in 21st century?
One can only guess (without the fear of blasphemy), that they would immediately adapt to current systems such as finance, judiciary, bureaucracy, and military,
just like
they very quickly leaned and adapted the systems that were prevalent 1400 years ago.
However Bidduins won't change, they would be stuck with tents, camels, and tribes even now, even in 21st century.
Why? because Bidduins refuse to adapt and change even in the days of Mohammad pbuh.
Thus it is safe to say (and assume) that Pakistanis who want to impose 1400 years old tribal system in the name of Islam are in true sense the followers of bidduins and not the sahab rah.
Very interesting burqa ji,
All of your post is interesting but I am qouting this part only.
I wish all of our so called 'educated' Pakistanis whether living inside of Pakistan or abroad stop adopting the bidduin mentality (just what the agenda of that mafia spreading the fundamentalism, intolerance, extremism & totally fkd up version of islam is) & go back to living the 'normal' islamic life style as they were approx 20 years ago from today. I wish these educated pakistanis would also learn to use their brain for a change & stop falling prey to that mafia & its' agenda. All they need is a little common sense but looking at the circumstances, I think that is asking too much as majority of them have learned to act like bidduins without even realising that. They're brainwashed into believing that they are following the 'islamic' way whereas they have clearly been brainwashed into believing the intolerant, fundamentalistic approach to islam is the 'islamic way'. Such a pity!
However Bidduins won't change, they would be stuck with tents, camels, and tribes even now, even in 21st century.
Why? because Bidduins refuse to adapt and change even in the days of Mohammad pbuh.
Thus it is safe to say (and assume) that Pakistanis who want to impose 1400 years old tribal system in the name of Islam are in true sense the followers of bidduins and not the sahab rah.
That's why followers of Islam with a little bit of common sense think that 'Islamic secularism' is the system for Pakistan so that the minorities & their rights are protected just as they are instructed to be protected in Islam.
............. Religious freedoms of minorities are not protected in secular countries.
Instead of accusing you of falsely interpreting Quran I’ll simply reply you with a verse from Quran:
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
When you are free from calling others as stupid please read the following carefully and try to answer objectively:
Where did I say Quran does not admonishes or criticizes Unbelievers. You have simply quoted the verses where Quran is warning the unbelievers about the grave consequences in the hereafter when Allah will punish them for this grave sin.
What should be the role of society for religious sins, please read Quran for this:
“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)
Burqa has rightly tried to explain this as follows:
That's why followers of Islam with a little bit of common sense think that 'Islamic secularism' is the system for Pakistan so that the minorities & their rights are protected just as they are instructed to be protected in Islam.
Oxymoron.