:k:
Instead of accusing you of falsely interpreting Quran I'll simply reply you with a verse from Quran:
109.006 YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine. PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
So you are quoting a paragraph meant to describe our differences from the Kufar as an applicable description for secular government? Do tell me how you get that concept from rougly 10 translated workds?
[quote]
When you are free from calling others as stupid please read the following carefully and try to answer objectively:
1) Where did I say Quran does not admonishes or criticizes Unbelievers. You have simply quoted the verses where Quran is warning the unbelievers about the grave consequences in the hereafter when Allah will punish them for this grave sin.
2) What should be the role of society for religious sins, please read Quran for this:
“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)
[/quote]
Not relevant. We are discussing secular governments. You stated that the Quran states we should have a secular form of government. Prove it.
[quote]
Burqa has rightly tried to explain this as follows:
[/QUOTE]
The day I listen to Posh Spice on matters related to religion is the day I declare myself an atheist.
The discussions is on secularism. You stated the Quran supports and states we are to have a secular government prove it.
The day I listen to Posh Spice on matters related to religion is the day I declare myself an atheist.
.
I really don't care if you are an atheist, polytheist, or whatever. The day you will try to impose your relgious belief on others by force, you will become a serious threat to the society!
Neither do I care if Burqa is an atheist or not, nor I have the right to judge him according to my belief system!
Your religion is for your personal self as Quranic verses quoted in the previous post. This is the message of Quran as well as system adopted in any civilized society in the world. You have the right to convey your message as advised by Quran and the particular verse of Quran is provided in my argument to prove my point. This right is also recognized by all the secular societies in the world as freedom of expression.
However if you try to impose your brand of Islam or any other religion on other members of the society who do not agree with you by force or compulsion, you will become a serious threat to the peace and harmony of the society.** That's all I have to say!!!!**
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Snookums. There is a difference between imposing ones views is very different from incorrect or falsely intrepreting Islam.
You stated the Quran supports and states that muslims should have secular government. Prove it.
Snookums. There is a difference between imposing ones views is very different from incorrect or falsely intrepreting Islam.
You stated the Quran supports and states that muslims should have secular government. Prove it.
I don't want to repeat myself again and again!
Read my previous posts and you will find the references right from Quranic verses. Your argument is that I do not understand Quran correctly. You may be right or wrong with this argument. I may argue that your understanding of Quran is not correct. These arguments are just one opinion against the other. A secular frame of mind is that I leave your belief to you, and you leave my belief to me. We must recognize that our understanding is different, and must respect each others right to be different. You have every right to keep your opinion and understanding, but do not have the right to impose them on me. For the worldly affairs we should keep our different understandings of religion to ourselves, and decide about the worldly matters according to the requirements of the society.
If you have a problem with my understanding of religion, you should keep it to yourself. I have no problem with your understanding of religion as long as my rights are protected and you do not impose your understanding of sharia on me!
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Again those Quranic verses have nothing to do with government at all. They are attributed to different subjects which have nothing to do with government at all.
Also you are not defining secular properly at all.
Secular | Define Secular at Dictionary.com
That is how the dictionary describes it. It is not mutual respect of religion as you state. It everything other than religion.
When people say secular government they mean a government which has no aspect of religion to be part of it. That is secular.
I am clearly saying that religion should not be a part of the government, which does not mean no respect for religion. This is your personal addition to the definition. My definition of secular has a freedom to follow religion and has all the respect for religion. That’s what I am arguing for. I in favour of this not just because Quran says so ( personal opinion and common sense), but I sincerely believe is the right thing to do. According to my understanding of Quran, and I provided you with the verses which you believe are irrelevant, are exactly what Islam endorses (my understanding of relgion).
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Your definition means jack. I can define Secular to mean cats fly. Doesn't mean it is the acceptible term. The accepted definition of secular is that of an absence of religion in government. It does not denote additional respect for other faiths.
If that was the case neither the US nor the EU have a secular government.
Your definition means jack. I can define Secular to mean cats fly. Doesn't mean it is the acceptible term. The accepted definition of secular is that of an absence of religion in government. It does not denote additional respect for other faiths.
If that was the case neither the US nor the EU have a secular government.
The official definition of secular from the link provided says "without religion". It does not mention respect or disrespect for the religions.
A secular system is not against mutual respect for different religions on personal basis as a part of freedom of expression. However a secular system does not use religion as the basis of governance. *The governance has to be without the interference of religion, not that your personal life has to be without religion in a secular system. *
If you mean that I said that you must have respect for religions to make them a part of governance, you are the one who didn't understand my argument. When I say respect for religions in a secular society, I mean freedom of an individual to follow any religion in his personal life!
You are the one who is mixing up the respect for personal religion means bringing the religion in governance. While I clearly mean the respect for religion as personal right to follow religion without bringing it in governance.
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Yes secular means without religion, which is not possible in Islam. Sovereignty lies with Allah and Islam is a way of life. Like I said you can't pick and choose what you wish out of Islam. So secular government can not be an aspect of a muslim nation.
Now the question can religious freedoms be protected in an Islamic government. That is another subject matter. But that does not mean that secular government is stated by the Quran.
....Sovereignty lies with Allah
...
yeap. and you said it without ever thinking for even 2 seconds that Allah is not here to run our government.
And guess what, in 21st century, Islamism forces on us poor folks "Sovereignty of Mullah" instead of "Sovereignty of Allah".
We thus end up getting Mullah-cracy just like in Saudi and Irani systems.
So my request to you is think in today's terms.
instead of living in a dream world that may or may not have existed 1400 years ago.
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
sigh Soveriegnty is not an limited to running government. But why do you care? You support violations of Pakistan's soveriegnty on a regular basis.
sigh Soveriegnty is not an limited to running government. .....
but you all are peddling Islamism to run the Pakistani government. aren't you? Be honest OK!
p.s. personal attacks ignored.
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
LMAO! So much hatred for Islam it is pathetic. I am stating that Islam has a perfectly legitimate form of government to govern a muslim country and it does not have to be viewed in the narrow-minded and idiotic notions that its the Iran model or the Saudi Model.
Malaysia has a very solid democratic system that is governed by Islamic law. Ask any Malay.
your logic is truly myopic. Malaysia system is truely Islamist. Look at this news. Good Berry Berry good.
And guess what, Islamism in Pak, Saudi, Irani, Yemeni system (only a tiny city state aka dubai is an exception) clearly results in firebombing, murder, mayhem at the hands of Mullahtic Jihadis.
And you want to hold Malay system as a model. Shabash. very Shabash.
**
Churches attacked in Kuala Lumpur**
Three churches have been attacked in Malaysia’s capital Kuala Lumpur, ahead of protests by Muslim groups.
The administrative offices of one church were destroyed by a firebomb attack and one of the other two churches attacked was slightly damaged.
Some Muslim groups are angry at a court decision allowing non-Muslims to use the word Allah to refer to God.
The government of the mainly Muslim nation has condemned the attacks on the churches and vowed to take action.
About 60% of Malaysians are Malay Muslims and the government relies on their vote.
There also significant Chinese and Indian minorities, who are mainly Christians, Hindus and Buddhists.
The controversy stems from a ban on a Catholic newspaper, The Herald, using the word Allah in its Malay-language edition.
The Kuala Lumpur High Court struck down the three-year old ban on non-Muslims using of the word Allah.
Some major Muslim organisations, including the Islamic political party, PAS, have agreed with the court, saying other Abrahamic religions - Christianity and Judiasm - may use the word.
But some vocal groups, including the Muslim Youth Movement, Abim, have cast the use of the word Allah as a surreptitious effort on the part of Christians to try to seduce Muslims away from Islam.
“ The government will take whatever steps it can to prevent such acts ”
Prime Minister Najib Razak
Church officials say that although the word Allah originated in Arabic, Malays have used it for centuries to refer generally to God, and Arabic-speaking Christians used it before Islam was founded, reports the BBC’s religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott.
Molotov cocktails
The argument has continued in the media and the courts for months but had not become violent - until assailants on motorbikes were seen smashing the windows of the Metro Tabernacle Church, a Protestant church in Kuala Lumpur on Friday.
The ground floor office of the three-storey church was destroyed in a blaze a little after midnight, said Kevin Ang, a church spokesman.
Kuala Lumpur police Chief Mohamad Sabtu Osman said police had found a wrench, an empty petrol tin and two scorched motorbikes at the scene.
Separately, Molotov cocktails were thrown into the compounds of two other churches before dawn, causing minor damage in one and none in the other, church officials said.
Prime Minister Najib Razak condemned the attacks, saying such actions would “destroy our country’s harmony”.
“The government will take whatever steps it can to prevent such acts,” he said.
There was tight security at all churches in Malaysia and at several mosques where protests against the court’s ruling took place, says the BBC’s Jennifer Pak in Kuala Lumpur.
Mass nationwide demonstrations failed to materialise on Friday, but protesters at mosques in Kuala Lumpur carried placards reading “Allah is only for us” and “Heresy arises from words wrongly used”.
“I hope the court will understand the feeling of the majority Muslims of Malaysia,” said Ahmad Johari, at the National Mosque.
“We can fight to the death over this issue,” he told Associated Press news agency.
The government has appealed against the court verdict and the High Court has suspended the decision’s implementation until the appeal is heard.
Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC News - Malaysian churches fire-bombed as ‘Allah’ row escalates
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Law and order is very different from a theortical discussion on governance and secularism. Posh spice you are a self-hating muslim, if you are muslim at that. You will insult anything that is related to religion and half the time you make up stuff.
The issue is related to government and secularism. Stick to the topic.
Law and order is very different ..[from]...governance ...
Yet another gem from cm
Law and order is very different from governance? hahaha.
Governance means enforcement of laws and keeping the order. What kind of urdu medium schools did you go to?
Such a lack of comprehension!
Sad!
Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan
Posh spice. This is the type of selective reading that you are infamous for. Governance and secularism. That is the subject matter is it not? Stick to it. After all you wouldn’t want me to post links of Frenchies attacking synagogues now would you? That too in a secular country! 
So, is this the error-free islamic system you want to impose in pakistan?
Mind you, this is something which has made public. The ‘error-free’ islamic systems in countries like, saudia, uae & actually in majority of the ‘muslim’ countries is so dark, hypocritic & stone-aged that would make any ‘normal’ human puke due to its’ ‘oppressive’ nature.
You wanna bring more and more tribalism & beduin system in a country like pakistan which has like what 30% literacy rate?
People might have mixed views on the actions of that arab living in a country with sharia system. Personally, I see nothing but a pure tribal form of way of living which cannot be seperated from the arabs of the desert no matter what faith they follow. So, you wanna impose that form of living in pakistan where people already dieing of hunger? What have you done about resolving the existing problems like uneducated masses, poverty, social diseases, etc. other than growing a beard & enforcing the women of your house to become ninjas??