Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

[CM]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

I am sorry did you get sidetracked again. I took your analogy and showed you how that works for Islamic form of government and you have no response. Like all the other posts so far.

Its okay name calling. You can't handle an intellectual discussion. The problem with this discussion is that every sees the discussion in what they are used too. There is only the western model or nothing yes. No real intellectual discussion.

The idea is to think about the box. Not in the box thinking or out of the box thinking. Look at how people define the discussion. Either the western model which is obviously flawed, or a model 1400 years ago. Nobody looks at the models in between from the Islamic world?

Why? Because they have no freaking clue what they were. That is the problem.

Look at the OPs thread. The article compares the Islamic rule in the past 1400 years to Church rule. A dumb situation because they are no way near the same.

Thus my first question why does Islamic rule mean ruled by clerics? Because that is all these Western educated kids know. The rule of the church before the reformation and the renaissance. They know nothing what happened in other nations and people of the world.

[burqaposhx]

........

Thus my first question why does Islamic rule mean ruled by clerics?...

If that is your first question. Then you know nothing about this discussion or the Islamism.

Pathetic!

Oh Bhai!

All 4 Khalifa Rashid were religious authorities aka clerics PLUS political authorities aka "governors".

If you in your little mind, want to move away from this fundamental concept, then you have no idea about Islamism vs. secularism debate.

When JI or Talibots, or Iranian Mullahs speaketh of Islamist government, they do put clerics as the "supreme" authority, and you still ask questions about clerics.

Strange!

Sorry to say that.

p.s.. Bhai you are not thinking straight on this thread just like you were out of touch in the polypropylene thread.

[CM]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

So the Sahaba are now clerics? You base this on what actually? So according to you anybody who is religious and adheres to Islamic models and life styles are now clerics? Great. I am a cleric as well.

[burqaposhx]

So the Sahaba are now clerics? You base this on what actually? So according to you anybody who is religious and adheres to Islamic models and life styles are now clerics? Great. I am a cleric as well.

Continue putting words where none is intended. Shabash.

Oh Bhai!

Anyone who claims to be or treated like a religious authority should be considered cleric in our discussion.

So you wanted to know if you are cleric.

Bhai!

If you are treated like a religious authority by your gang, then you are their cleric.

However if you are as "educated" as shown in the polypropylene thread, then you are 100 degrees higher in rutba, because the added ignorance makes you "Pakistani Cleric".

[CM]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Quick question again did they ever claim they had religious authority? Just because you were round at the founding of the religion does not mean you claim that authority.

[Ambassador1]

Thank you for your post.

This brilliant idea of a muslim philosopher has been recognized & implemented by the west to build their nations / countries but unfortunately, muslims, as per their usual stupidity & ignorance, throw this philosopher’s work in the bin.

This is what I wish to see implemented in Pakistan. I wish we could have this.

I wish Pakistanis with some common sense & authority in government policies could have a look at this & practically implement.

@bob_chasm

Perhaps it would be a good idea to remind everyone that the philosophical concept behind modern western secularism was introduced to the west by Averroes (Ibn Rushd) in Muslim Spain. These ideas were spread to Judaism by his student Moses Mamonides and among Christians by St. Thomas Aquinas. Unfortunately, the Islamic World declared Averroes a heretic and burnt his books and writings, so modern day Muslims do not recognize his idea of secularism as a Muslim invention and wrongfully think of it as a Christian/ Jewish Western invention. However, the West still recognizes the debt owed to this Muslim scholar:

"Averroes advocated the principle of twofold truth, maintaining that religion has one sphere and philosophy another. Religion, he said, is for the unlettered multitude; philosophy for the chosen few. Religion teaches by signs and symbols; philosophy presents the truth itself. In the mind, therefore, of the truly enlightened, philosophy supersedes religion. But, though the philosopher sees that what is true in theology is false in philosophy, he should not on that account condemn religious instruction, because he would thereby deprive the multitude of the only means which it has of attaining a (symbolic) knowledge of the truth. "

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Averroes

[Ambassador1]

Thank you for this excellent post. It is very intelligent.

And the last part made me laugh. THANK YOU!!!

Thanks for a sensible argument (unlike CM who is stuck in this like he was in the polypropylene thread).

OK.

Many Pakistanis in their minds, trivialize the very concept of ruling 200+ million people in the 21st century.

Islamic Shariah discussion in Pak has been so unfortunately relegated to hand chopping aka hadood.

And thus we now have two groups aka Islamists vs. Secularists fighting like village old women, shouting and frothing and cursing.

Oh Bhai Marv.

Running a government should be treated like a "SYSTEM" with thousands of moving parts that need constant up-gradation and evolution.

The problem with Islamists is that they think government can be run like those by Khalifa Rashideen. Nothing could be further than truth.

If any of you were transported via time machine to live in the Makkah during any Khalifa Rashid, you will choke with dust, suffocate due to trash, and die of trivial diseases if not looted on your way to another city. Or killed during civil war that would eventually follow with the death of one Khalifa or the other.

You will not have running water, nor a reliable transportation system accept perhaps a sick donkey.

You will not bathe for days, and you will be smelling like dirty animal.

To top it off, the only government revenue will be a tiny 2.5% zakat supplemented by HUGE amounts of the loot Khasoot of defeated tribes and countries.

And Mr. Mav, after 3 days (tops) of such meager existence, you will be the first one to shout, "Get me out of here, I am gonna die, I'm gonna die, please get me out of here".

Then you better pray that your time machine works, otherwise you may kiss your softy softy @rse good bye.

No wonder, the application of Sharia in the 21st century has quickly lead to the destruction of societies even the ones blessed with natural resources.

How many middle class Pakistanis want to live in Talibotic Kabul, Or Shabbab's Mogadishu, or Qaida's Yemen?

Heck no! Most of us want clean living, running water, functioning government with good revenues that are then spent on social security, health care, and education, and infrastructure.

And guess what? All these necessities are modeled and thus adapted from Europeans. No such example exist from the time of Khalifa Rashid.

Thus Khalifa Rashid system is not only unstable (inherently), but also incapable of providing modern living.

And still some Paks want to romance with the caves and tents. While wishing to have everything that Europeans have in the 21st century.

Oh Bhai, how can you have European style life without ADAPTING from European systems?

Hain?

How on earth you can change "modalities" to live like Europeans such as:

1 - healthcare, 2- social security, 3- education, 4- infrastructure, etc. etc.

Without LEARNING from and ADAPTING to their system of government?

You think Sharia is etched in stone? like the tablets given to the prophets MUCH MUCH before Mohammad pbuh?

If so, then you got the stone of stone tablets with no spirit of Islam that in itself came to rid the ideas that forced people to follow stone tablets and rituals.

Sharia's prime example was never meant for hand chopping.

In reality Sharia asked for much less dramatic but lot more fundamental things like speaking the truth, be honest, be tolerant etc.

Unfortunately Islamists in Pakistan cannot practice these fundamental requirements and instead continue harping on hand-chopping and donkey riding lifestyle all in the name Khilafah Rashideen.

And that is really really sad.

p.s. And if during your time travel to Makka of Khalifa Rashid time, you showed youtube video or digital images of modern European living, I bet many Sahaba ra would be trying to get in your time machine (no disrespect intended!).

[Ambassador1]

Just to add, majority of muslims are unappreciateive & have a habit of discarding all the philosophies which they do not understand. And they do not understand most of the of the philosophies, philosophers & their work because they have deficient brains. That is what precisely has always been the reason of their fall… which continues.

Rest of the muslims can only live in hope that there would come a day when majority of muslims would learn to appreciate their own philosopher, such as, Abul Walid Mahommed.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Averroes

@Ambassador1

Thank you for your post.

This brilliant idea of a muslim philosopher has been recognized & implemented by the west to build their nations / countries but unfortunately, muslims, as per their usual stupidity & ignorance, throw this philosopher’s work in the bin.

This is what I wish to see implemented in Pakistan. I wish we could have this.

I wish Pakistanis with some common sense & authority in government policies could have a look at this & practically implement.

[Ambassador1]

OMG, just read this & this is very true & funny.

Really, my experiecence of Pakistani mullahs.......... God!!!! They have no hope in the world. The most stupidest of people I have ever come across and on the top of that they are too proud that they are super duper smart creatures who know everything.

Not pointing towards CM as I have never read him much so I dont even know his views.

Bhai!

If you are treated like a religious authority by your gang, then you are their cleric.

However if you are as "educated" as shown in the polypropylene thread, then you are 100 degrees higher in rutba, **because the added ignorance makes you "Pakistani Cleric".**

[burqaposhx]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

What Ibn Rushd did on philosophical level, is the same what Turks did on implementation/practical level.

However Pakistani Mullahs (and Mullah-wanna-bees) refuse to learn from the Turkish experience and instead blame them for the death of Khilafah, and mock their great leader Mustafa Kamal.

Many Pakistanis absolutely and steadfastly refuse to learn that uber-religiosity results in shutting down the brains, and thus leads to the decline at personal and national level.

When someone says, I am gonna do this because of religious edicts, and I am gonna disregard every controlled study on the topic, then he/she becomes Abu Jahil.

Abu Jahil, mind you was not some dumb Bidduin. He was UNCLE of Mohammad pbuh and a high elder of Quraish one of the most influential group around Makkah back then.

He was called Abu Jahil because of his arrogance, and his refusal to see the light.

Many Pakistani-Jihadis even though they claim to follow Mohammad pbuh, are in reality following the same path that Abu Jahil took.

With the few exceptions, most of the Khalifas were todies in the hand of Mullahs,
And Mullahs would then oblige by corrupting the religion in the favor of Khalifa.

Many Sunnis in Pakistan do not listen the Arabic version of Jumman Khutba. Otherwise they would notice that Mullah says that on every Friday ---

------ Mun Ahaan-al-Sultan, Ahaan Allah.

Those who raise voice against, or disrespect the Khalifa, are in fact disrespecting Allah.

And why not.

Because Khalifah was supposed to be the "Allah's naa-eb" or second in command after Allah.

With this kind of background, Khalifa system as practiced 1400 years ago is incompatible with 21st century.

And still Pakistanis are stuck in the same old rut. the same old donkey cart.

[Iconoclast]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

[QUOTE]

------ Mun Ahaan-al-Sultan, Ahaan Allah.

[/QUOTE]

Never heard that in my life, though i understand Arabic very well. Can you give me a video, audio or text link of this

[bob_chasm]

@Ambassador1

Just to add, majority of muslims are unappreciateive & have a habit of discarding all the philosophies which they do not understand. And they do not understand most of the of the philosophies, philosophers & their work because they have deficient brains. That is what precisely has always been the reason of their fall… which continues.

Rest of the muslims can only live in hope that there would come a day when majority of muslims would learn to appreciate their own philosopher, such as, Abul Walid Mahommed.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Averroes

The way I see it, it is hard to invent a spacecraft by looking at the hind quarters of a camel. The world has moved on, there are new ideas on how to solve problems in a sophisticated modern society. However, if people insist on seeing nothing but what was written before the 10th c. by some Arabs and consider everthing else bida, then such a society is going to have a hard time moving forward.

regards,

bob

[Ambassador1]

***What Ibn Rushd did on philosophical level, is the same what Turks did on implementation/practical level.

---

***However Pakistani Mullahs (and Mullah-wanna-bees) refuse to learn from the Turkish experience and instead blame them for the death of Khilafah, and mock their great leader Mustafa Kamal.

Many Pakistanis absolutely and steadfastly refuse to learn that uber-religiosity results in shutting down the brains, and thus leads to the decline at personal and national level.

---

When someone says, I am gonna do this because of religious edicts, and I am gonna disregard every controlled study on the topic, then he/she becomes Abu Jahil.

Abu Jahil, mind you was not some dumb Bidduin. He was UNCLE of Mohammad pbuh and a high elder of Quraish one of the most influential group around Makkah back then.

He was called Abu Jahil because of his arrogance, and his refusal to see the light.

***Many Pakistani-Jihadis even though they claim to follow Mohammad pbuh, are in reality following the same path that Abu Jahil took.

---

With the few exceptions, most of the Khalifas were todies in the hand of Mullahs, And Mullahs would then oblige by corrupting the religion in the favor of Khalifa.

And still Pakistanis are stuck in the same old rut. the same old donkey cart.

No doubt & the Pakistani approach before the mid 90s was much balanced & moderately religious before the fall of soviet. That's when the general muslim public of Pakistan was actively called on by some 'groups' which used Pakistani pulic to meet their own agendas. They called Pakistani muslims to become 'Islamic' against america which actually was intended to turn them into 'extremists' by taking up 'jihad' & using it as a tool of destruction. The majority jahil public of Pakistan which never knew the real meaning of jihad to begin with was too easy for those 'interest groups' who glamorized jihad for those jahils to meet their extremely ugly political agendas.

I call it lucifier's callings. osama bin ladin's was one major tool of lucifier. He completely messed up our people's moderate ways of living. Infact, not only our people but all the muslims around the world. His only aim was to destroy america but did he ever realise how much believers / innocents blood was wasted & all the unrest & misery which has spread everywhere which haunts all the humans but ESPECIALLY MUSLIMS? Pakistani public was easy for him to exploit because all our great intellectuals were all hanged, killed & prisoned by the dictators who were put to power against Pakistani people's will. What else do you expect the people of a society to follow which hangs, murders & prisons its' real intellectuals, philosophers, professors? Those dictators.................. I wish, they could once refuse to those powers to exterminate the good people of their own nation........................... All of those were easy tools at the hand of lucifier.

200 east pakistani intellectuals were also killed by the lucifier's (indian) army at the time of the division of east Pakistan. But as usual the blame was put on Pakistani army. After the division as per 'divide & conquer' rule, genocide of the intellectuals was done so that india could 'lead' the way for the mentally deficient nations in the region. Because ofcourse people with a good brain & mind would understand & not submit to the lucifier so they had to be exterminated.

Nothing new. The history has repeated itself several times but do we as Pakistanis or as muslims understand or try to understand? No. Pakistani people & youth forever want to forever remain in the dreams & fantasies of bollysh!t the lucifier wants them to. Lucifier wants us to forever remain lost in the greed for power, money or status hence turn corrupt. Keep partying, drinking, dancing on bollysh!t tunes while right outside in the city many of their own die in a bomb blast.

As if all of that was not enough, the indian (lucifier's agent) GEO is right here on Pakistani soil exploiting therainless & the neiive Pakistani people as much as they can in the name of 'free media'. Are they doing it out of ignorance, stupidity or greed? One cannot say. Do they care? No, they dont have time to even spend a few moments wondering why all of this is going on & what they can do to fix it. All they want to spread & instill in Pakistani people are misery, fear, terror AND BOLLYSH!T dances & vulgarity................. Tell me what it is if not fitnaof dajjal.

I know majority of Pakistani leaders & common people are following the dajjalic system in one way or the other. They havebeen brainwashed to. Only prayers &a realistic review of their own actions can save this nation.

[Khan15]

The way I see it, it is hard to invent a spacecraft by looking at the hind quarters of a camel. The world has moved on, there are new ideas on how to solve problems in a sophisticated modern society. However, if people insist on seeing nothing but what was written before the 10th c. by some Arabs and consider everthing else bida, then such a society is going to have a hard time moving forward.

regards,

bob

I couldn't have put it better.

The problem with Pakistan, and the Islamic world in general (and I know, I grew up in Jordan and Saudi), is we have decided to commit mass suicide. We listen to haramkhors like Zaid Hamid, who is nothing but a self-publicist.

Chief probably believes that the Punjabis have now the responsibility to resurect the Caliphate, and dreams of the day that he and his friends will conquer the known world. The reality out side is we have a poverty stricken and disintegrating society, which is literally blowing itself up. But our people still want Islamism. I am beginning to think Pakistanis deserves there fate.

I can only pray to Allah that they see the light, and start thinking of how to improve the economy, and concentrate on health and education, rather then thinking of creating Islamic empires.

[Zoab_Khan]

Where does Islamism(another word created by the West) or Caliphate say live in caves? Stop implying this b.s. Mullah's running around is not shariah and not the caliphate.

The problem of Pakistan is not Zaid Hamid, its Asif Ali Zardari, its Fauzia Wahab, its Babar Awan, its the "Chaudary Baradaran", its the Sharif clan etc.

The poor man is trampled in Pakistan not because of Zaid Hamid but because of the corrupt leaderships.

[dhanya_podena]

@Khan15

I couldn't have put it better.

The problem with Pakistan, and the Islamic world in general (and I know, I grew up in Jordan and Saudi), is we have decided to commit mass suicide. We listen to haramkhors like Zaid Hamid, who is nothing but a self-publicist.

Chief probably believes that the Punjabis have now the responsibility to resurect the Caliphate, and dreams of the day that he and his friends will conquer the known world. The reality out side is we have a poverty stricken and disintegrating society, which is literally blowing itself up. But our people still want Islamism. I am beginning to think Pakistanis deserves there fate.

I can only pray to Allah that they see the light, and start thinking of how to improve the economy, and concentrate on health and education, rather then thinking of creating Islamic empires.

I thought of you as a sensible person, but was wrong. Where does this pighead Zaid Zaman, caling on Punjabis? Your post shows you are just another one of those who just eat the $hit Altaf Hussain feeds you.

[burqaposhx]

......Mullah's running around is not shariah and not the caliphate.

......

Agreed!

But Mullahs are the seed from where Islamist government sprouts. Look at Saudi and Iran. Where Mullah, Allah, and 2-bit politiko princes or (prince-wanna-bees) collude to push the countries into subhuman living.

Cave is a metaphor to show the mindset of Islamists. And the destination of any nation that follows the deadly path.

Now if you can bring Khilafet without Mullahs, then you must be thinking about 21st century European systems (and not the true blue Khilafaet Rashida)..

[CM]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Name Calling, Icono asked you a question. Back up your statements. You spread alot of stupidity about Islam, which no other Muslims can verify. So back up your statement.

[burqaposhx]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Looks like CM is now a self-appointed rep of Icono!

Coz if Icono has hired CM as his rep, then may Allah help Icono. half-educated (neem hakim + neem Mullah) reps usually take their clients for a drink of snake oil. And clearly from the polypropylene thread, CM sahib is both neem hakeem and neem Mullah (the worst possible combo deal).

Icono bhai,

There is no point is throwing around one liners if you are not willing to read by yourself or educate yourself.

These days googling has made quick copying easier, however it doesn't replace true learning. Serveral Indian posters have already shown their naivety by cutting and pasting from google searches.

You ask about the link between Jummah Khutba and Mullah-Khalifa nexus. You must have not read anything about the history of Khalifatic Islam.

This was customary to add the sitting Khalifa's name in Jumma Khutba. And some Mullahs in smaller towns and villages are still repeating the same wording in their Khutba. Just travel through Pakistan and you will know.

And that is truly sad.

FYI, Long before Khalifas,

Pharaohs too had a their Mullahs declare the Pharaoh as God's appointed commander in chief on the earth.

the same thing happened to Romans during their downfall.

So I'd suggest two things.

1. Avoid allowing CM to become your rep
2. Study Islamic history aka follow Allah's FIRST commandment to Muslims! Iqra!

[CM]

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Nope.

[quote]
Never heard that in my life, though i understand Arabic very well. Can you give me a video, audio or text link of this.
[/quote]

That was the point. Show proof. The reason I ask is because I have never heard it in Sudan either. My arabic is no doubt weak but I for sure would remember what you have quoted.