Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Its an interesting article & its worth reading. What I find funny is that Islamist’s argument that western cutlers are decadent, but if they get chance they would have no problem moving there.

DAWN.COM | Editorial | Secularism vs Islamism

     Secularism vs Islamism       
            By Iqbal Akhund 

Monday, 22 Feb, 2010
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The average Pakistani is devout and religious but is not willing to be ruled by clerics. — File Photo
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In a recent TV debate on this subject, the applause meter would have given the win to Islamism. The debaters, three on each side, faced a small mixed audience — quite a few girls, many wearing hijabs, also young men in jeans and a handful of beards.

The ‘secularists’ appealed, in measured tones, to the intellect, made references to European history, called for tolerance, pluralism and progress. The ‘Islamists’ were assertive, emotional and received applause when they spoke of the ‘moral decadence’ of the West and condemned, to louder applause, the West’s aggression against Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and Iraq.

So do the people of Pakistan want an Islamist state? Well, yes and no.

A poll of young persons in a recent issue of the Karachi monthly Herald shows the complexity of the Pakistani mindset. A substantial majority (64 per cent) wanted an Islamic state but the religious parties that espouse this cause received only three per cent of the vote. By an emphatic majority they preferred democracy to military rule. Most were optimistic about the future, but even so 53 per cent would leave the country if given the chance. There were other questions that touched on lifestyles, friendship, marriage, etc, the answers to which showed a predictably conservative bent of mind.

During the TV debate’s question time, one young girl in the audience said: “Show me one verse of the Quran that is against tolerance, human rights and democracy. Then I too shall be for secularism.” She was saying in effect that western secularism does not offer anything that Islam as such does not provide, refuting both Samuel Huntington and Maulana Maududi.

It brought to my mind what a French thinker had written at the time of Iran’s Islamic revolution: nothing worthwhile can be done in Muslim countries except in the name of Islam.

However, when someone in the audience recalled the tolerance and progressiveness of Moorish Spain, one debater on the ‘liberal’ side responded: let us not always be talking about past glories. The dismal present of the Islamic world, she said, is what we must face up to — poverty, ignorance, intolerance, and corrupt and autocratic governments. “In the entire Muslim world there isn’t one world-class university.”

What one may make of this, if one takes the Herald poll as representative, is that the Pakistani youth has faith in the Islamic system but does not go along with what is proposed by the religious parties; thinks democracy is compatible with Islam; is patriotic but also pragmatic; and is conservative in the matter of social mores. He/she feels strongly about the West’s policies towards Muslims and is repelled by its sexual permissiveness.

Could one say then that the gulf between Islamists and secularists is not as wide as the 60-year contention on the subject would indicate? The dispute arises from confusion over the terms of the debate. Secularism in its European meaning of separation of church and state does not apply to Islam which has no church, no priesthood. What our Islamist parties want would indeed amount to creating a sort of institutionalised priesthood.

In their view democracy, in which decisions are taken by majority vote and not according to the will of God, is not Islamic. In the first Constituent Assembly they proposed that a council of ulema, which can interpret His word, be established to vet all legislation. They did not get this but the assembly instead adopted an Islamic ‘Objectives Resolution’.

This somewhat ambiguous document, when all is said and done, says no more than that Muslims should be ‘enabled’ (not obliged) to order their lives in accordance with Islam. Otherwise it calls only for all accepted democratic values — equality of status, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association.

But in due course more substantive measures followed. Only a Muslim could be president or prime minister (what then of equality of status?). Ahmadis were declared non-Muslims. A more draconian blasphemy law was introduced, along with the Hudood Ordinance, the Qisasand Diyat(an eye for an eye) law, and the Qanun-i-Shahadatregulations under which a woman’s word is worth half that of a man. And the list doesn’t end there.Few, if any, of these provisions were introduced as a result of public demand or debate. Most of them, such as the ban on interest, have remained a dead letter, no one has had his hands cut off, no adulterers have been stoned. When the Hudood Ordinance was amended some time ago there was no public outcry. I daresay there wouldn’t be too much if it was done away with altogether.

The real debate is not between Islam and secularism but between democracy and theocracy, and in that context the entire history of our constitution-making shows on which side the people stand.

The situation is paradoxical. The average Pakistani is devout and religion is an important part of his being. Islamic signs and symbols are everywhere but Pakistanis are not willing to be ruled by clerics and do not vote for the religious parties. Yet a rightwing Islamism (the Shariat Court calling land reform un-Islamic, for instance) coupled with an exhibitionist religiosity has been making headway in the country’s politics and hearts and minds.

The Islamists care little for votes and elections but rely on sympathisers in the administration, the education system and the military to promote an agenda concerned with ritual and revival rather than welfare and progress. Obscurantist teachings in madressahs, Friday sermons spewing sectarian bias and, more recently, some religious TV channels have cast a medieval pall over Pakistani society and created an atmosphere of bigotry and intolerance.

It will not be an easy task to bring about a more open-minded, tolerant attitude. Musharraf’s ‘enlightened moderation’ did not go anywhere because it did not have the support of his power base in the army and he did not have the courage of his convictions. For the moment nobody else is even trying. I don’t at all see the Taliban in our future but don’t rule out Taliban-lite, some of which is here already.

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

I am confused about something. Since when does being a Muslim mean one has to be ruled by clerics? Where does one come up with such a ****ed up conclusion?

The problem with individuals who grow up in the West is that they have a very limited knowledge on Islam, Islamic history and rise of different forms of government in the Islamic world. I find it extremely interesting that the original author quotes Western thinkers, but does not do the same of Islamic thinkers who espouse similar views. It is a simple matter of ignorance on their part.

Being a Muslim means you accept that Islam is part of your life in every aspect. You can not pick and choose what you want to do or not do.

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

^ :k:

i dont give a - to what it is what i know is state should not have any thing to do with enforcing or projecting a religion that is what we have in pakistan i guess although we have few dormant clauses in constitution injected by zia and bhutto.

for example terming ahmedis non muslims and hudood laws (m no ahmedi).

and ones i hate really is a non muslim cant be prime minister or president whereas he can be everything except above two so one can chief justice, minister, chairman of civil institution and everything but not president or PM .

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Under what concept do you make the statement that:

[quote]
no state should not have any thing to do with enforcing or projecting a religion
[/quote]
?

As a Muslim you have to accept that Islam permeates all aspects of life including government.

A big size of population who want to move to different country (esp “west”) want to do it not for “culture” but the economic/education opportunities offered… not to adapt the culture. Just my 2c :chai:

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

yeah need to make a huge time machine and bring back all muslims espcially Pakistanies on the time of Hazrat Mohammad SAW, Khulfae Rashedeen

Khalid Bin Waleed RZ

Salahuddin Ayubi RZ

Tariq Bin Ziyad RZ.and other great muslims era to learn how was a muslim govts. were
runed and how was justice done by them under islamic teachings

There is aint any muslim state we just using the holy name of Islam for our benfits. in all aspects

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

This thread should be called

ROMANCE vs. REALITY of a so-called "Islamic state".

Here are some facts for Romantic History of Islamic states.

  1. Khilafat Rashida was PERRRFECT
  2. ISLAMIC government continuously ruled the world for 1200 years
  3. All Muslim (or at least majority of them) were just and honest. et. etc.

REALITY

  1. Khalifa RAshideen faced anarchy from day 1. The MAIN split between Shias and Sunnis started during Khalifa Rashid #1

  2. The anarchy and instability was so bad that 3 out of 4 Khalifa Rashideen were MURDERED on the job.

  3. The bottom fell from Islamist Jannat during Khalifa Rashid #4 (the esteemed nephew of our Messenger pbuh). and a civil war started within Messenger pbuh family.

  4. The anarchy (read warlordism) like in today's Afghanistan, FATA, Yemen, and Somalia continued on from Khalifa Rashid #4, and resulted in the murder of his SON Hussain ah and MOST of his family.

  5. Islamic Khalifa system spun out of control and the opponents were murdered and imprisoned just like in Iran of today.

  6. Many of Sunni Imams Hanifa, Shaf-ee, Malik, and Humbl lived in fear (of death and imprisonment) from the despotic rulers who called themselves Khalifa not different from Saddam Hussain.

  7. Khalifa system was never stable enough to bring an orderly change in the government. Death of one Khalifa usually triggered a civil war. And this was the case all the way to Ottoman Khalifahs and Mogal emperors.

Now you see that every time we'll revert back to Khalifa or Islamic system, we will turn ourselves into a tribal and warlord societies similar to Afghanistan etc.

Off course there are exceptions when one ruler was able to kill of opponents and do something positive or historic like in the case Taj Mahal or Al-Hamra etc. Or the rule of Suleman the magnificent. However they were all INDIVIDUALS and none of them gave us the STABLE system. As soon as these individuals became weak, anarchy ensued in the Islamic lands.

So it is up to us Paks to continue the unrest and civil war that was so rampant from the time of Khalifa Rashideen or learn something from others such as Europeans.

FYI. Europeans on the other hand, have been building up stable system in the last 800 years and even the monarchies (especially in England) figured out how to keep the system of government as stable as possible.

No one says Europeans are perfect. Even in the democracies such as USA, there was a HUGE civil war. However these Europeans systems have tried to resolve the "succession of leadership" issue and so far it is working.

Paks would rather have 5+5 years of Zardari and let him pass the torch to the next guy, instead of torching the whole country like what has happened since the time of Khalifa Rahideen.

The bottom line is:

Do Paks want the unstable Islamic system where succession leads to destruction?

Or something more stable like the Europeans of the last many centuries.

No point on harping on secularism. We want stable system that provides orderly change of government. That's all.

Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

No name calling. Between points 1 to 7 you have made some factually incorrect statement. I am giving you the chance to correct them before I respond.

No need to mess my name. It shows you are frustrated and trying to take personal cheap shots.

Obviously this is a discussion forum. Point 1 through 7 are related to the "politics" of Khalifa Rashideen and not their religious stature.

As politicians, there were failures even by the sahaba. Otherwise why in the world they would be murdered or why in the world war of jamal happened.

Unless we do a true analysis of Khalifa political system, we would forever remain marooned on the island of ignorance and arrogance.

Our Mullahs have a habit of doing a sugar coating on the issues such as the murder of Khalifa Usman rah WHILE Imam Hussain rah was standing guard. And guess what, Imam Hussain's father becomes next Khalifa.

If you view this in the light of Khalifatic struggle, then you will realize that Khalifa Rashid #4 was supposed to be #1, but he couldn't face the wrath of Khalifa Rashid #2 and so he backed down.

So don't be personal, just accept the reality.

Thank you.

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Lets start with reality as it is then Edit: name calling. Firstly how do you make the connection that just because there were disagreements between the Sahaba that means any form of government that is based on Islamic values and principles is not possible?

After all history shows that many advancements that led to modern inventions were discovered in Islamic Caliphates, which are by default Islamic forms of government.

Any system be it Islamic (or unIslamic) that leads to anarchy, civil war, death of leaders etc. is inherently unstable.

Sahaba had severe problems with succession and no Islamic value of their time could solve this fundamental problem.

This instability bogged down Khalifa #1 alllllllll the way to the Last Khalifa aka Ottoman emperor.

Europeans had similar issues with succession back in 700 AD, but

fast forward to 1500-1700 AD and Europeans started improving their political systems. And the process goes on until now.

Pakistanis on the other hand are getting thrown into the same old unstable Khalifa system, while they have brand new and much more stable systems available from Europe.

For the political system, Islamist Pakistanis are trying to bring out the donkey carts of 600 AD and trying to DRIVE on the modern super highways.

And the result is obvious.

Donkeys are being crushed by the fast moving 18 wheelers.

It is your choice CM. Ride on the donkey just because Sahaba were riding one too.

Or switch to more modern ways of political systems.

Thank you.

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

So Democracy is bad system according to your definition. After all the Civil war in the US created unstability, death, massive amounts of destruction, the death of Leaders. Israel a democracy regularly assassinates leaders. So did other democracies in third world countries. The CIA bombed a commercial airliner taking off from Cuba.

Additionally Democracies took part in World War 1 and 2. Does that mean according to your definition they are inherently bad systems. Lets not forget what Winston Churchill said.

CM!

As usual you are going on a tangent.

You were supposed to go point-by-point rebuttal for #-#7.

And you are already losing air.

Not very nice.

Just stick to the topic. It will be childish to compare Somalians style Khilafat to UK style system of government. Just plain old childish.

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

LMAO! No answer. sigh Start an intellectual debate and you fall through the cracks. I am using your definition and you go hide under a rock.

Pick a point to start the discussion with that you said are

Remember you said Politics only. No mention of religion at all.

So point 1 is not relevant.

Point 2: Same happens in Democracies. Four American presidents were assassinated. Robes Pierre was assassinated. Etc.

List of assassinated people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at how many US government officials were killed in the US excluding the four presidents.

Point 3: Civil Wars have occured in democracies as well. Case in point the Civil War in the US.

We stop here for now.

hahah. Even a junior student of political science would not dare to make jump and even remotely compare the stability of US system of succession to warlords of Somalia and the so called succession system of Khalifas.

This shows you have done no study, not even at the high school level.

No wonder people like you mess up our beautiful country Pakistan's good name. Shabash.

Re: Secularism vs Islamism in Pakistan

Again not answering the point. Just stupidity. Show me where I compared:

[quote]
the stability of US system of succession to warlords of Somalia.
[/quote]

Now back to the original three points. Refute them.

hahha. Ran out of breath after 3? What about 4,5,.......

FYI!

with Khalifa Rashid #1, started the Worst ever Islamic political division man!

And you want to ignore that? Wow! you are a good student of history. Aren't you?

You want to gloss over the warlordism (Somalian, Taliban style) of Khalifa system by saying

---- Oh the civil / wars, and assassinations happen in other systems.

Good one man.

yOu know you will be a good CEO of Toyota. You will be the one saying

Oh the toyota cars have faulty brake system, so we will bring bank the donkey cart. As per your argument the donkey carts from 600 AD were much more safe, and thus perfectly suitable to be used on 2010 motorways.

This is childish. pure childish to bring back old, expired, dilapidated systems because they SOUND good.

^^^^^^^

kya khoob guzregi jab mil bethan gay deewanay do:)

I don't understand why you drag khulfa-e-rashden in your discussions. Toyota made mistakes and respectfully acknowledged them to rectify the defects in cars. This is how sucessessful entities perform. Have you seen stock of Toyota recently? It has affected jake sh!t to its price. On the contrary stock price has gone up.

KickB,

Did you read the title of this thread?

This discussion is about Islamic system of government vs. the rest.

And how on earth you will discuss it without looking at the Islamic governments of Khulafa-Rashideen all the way to Ottoman empire?

How?????

Please enlighten us.

Yes.

That's what we the Pakistani-Muslims should do.

We need to respectfully acknowledge mistakes with our present and past systems.

Then show a plan to rectify the defects.

Because as you said it so eloquently.

"""" This is how successful entities perform"""""""""""

And yes we do believe that Pakistan will perform successfully if we learn .....
....... even from Toyota.