Secularism and Atheism

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Re: Secularism and Atheism

My initial point was that some sort of a moral code can be established without God or religion.

I think this needs to be understood for example - speaking the truth that is moral thing to do - to be honest, even atheists understand that ...

However, I also agreed that their version of morality will be deficient ...

Coming back to this discussion ...

I don't know ...

I'm from the school of thought that believes moral is to be right or to have virtue - The four cardinal virtues are according to Imam Al-Ghazali (from a philosophical point of view) - Courage, Temperance, Wisdom and Justice.

If Justice is a virtue and to be virtuous is to be moral then justice (adl) or conforming to the fitra is being moral.

Descartes and Ghazali have these ideas ... Kant on the other hand is more closer to what you are saying ... He says that the only truly moral act is the act of "good will". Hence, one cannot have good will towards the person who he wants killed because his son was killed by him. As I said earlier - philosophy does not have a single take on this subject. It depends on where you slice your cake that determines what is or is not moral.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

ok, I guess you are stick to your opinions, making excuses, dont know why. If Imam Al-ghazali is talking about cardinal virtues then you are implying it as morality without any reason. No one deny that human can speak truth but you are not adressing the other side of the picture that is human can tell lie too. Furthermore, speaking truth is not morality, religion guides us dont back-bite, even if you know the truth about someone, that is morality.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Agreed - that is morality - but is it something that cannot be fathomed without religion?

My reason for applying virtue = moral - is from the way the English language is formed ... Please go to the dictionary for synonyms of moral.

I also agreed with you that a moral framework in religion is greater than what it would be without religion. But we can't say that there will be "no" morality at all ... I'm not stuck to any opinion - I'm merely saying that this is what the world believes regarding morality - the philosophers of the past believe this and they have commented on this the way I have stated, unless I have understood them incorrectly.

If everything I am saying is irrelevant then it must be that I have failed to understand you, which is the cause of your frustration with me ... So I apologise, I don't think I understand you and that is a deficiency in me.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

No frustration bro, i just get disappointed when a senior guy like you give that types of exapmles.
Yes morality is virtue but that cannot be equated with orther virtues like courage for example, even not transitively.
Your point is Morality exist beyond religious framework, my point is that is randomly, and to take a moral action you must be convinced. Good and bad possible without divine guidance, randomly, but religion convince us for good.

Now its time to bring some rational arguments. By very nature of human being why one would act morally? if You give me example of forgiveness then do tell me what sort of motivation would come to that person's mind so he/she take moral action?

Quoting a verse from Nobel Quran, that is what human being is without religion.

[14:34] And He gave you from all you asked of Him. And if you should count the favor of Allah , you could not enumerate them. Indeed, mankind is [generally] most unjust and ungrateful.

P.S. I never miss a chance to give you credit where it is due, and you know that. My appology if you offended by my words, that was just a discusion's sake.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

the only way to to gain an objective perspective on morality is to have science speak on it

86

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Interesting.. So its worth pondering..

Do you think that in this vast cosmos some where, among the not so infinite yet still enormously vast reincarnations of you and I, there is an evil atheist evolution believing Psyah somewhere out there planning global domination?!?!?! :D

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

No ... Our decisions are plenty, but not infinite ... We do have a number of limited choices ... Also, these are only anecdotes to help us understand and come to accept the reality is a lot simpler than that ...

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Now I'm sure that I don't understand you ... Hmm let me see ...

Yes I totally agree that courage is not the same type of virtue as justice. By definition they stem from different areas. Transitively? Please explain ...

To take a moral action ... One needs to be convinced of what? Please explain ...

ok so you might be saying that without religion we randomly stumble across moral things, but it takes religion to encode that and religion classifies it as a moral act whereas without religion we would be none the wiser.

Verse 14:34 Sounds like it is speaking to the people who believe in God already. Ungratefulness in Allah stems from a lack of awareness and taqwa in Him. But this verse does not refer to how people interact with each other, it is to do with our interaction with Allah (SWT) ...

I don't actually understand the forgiveness and motivation paragraph, please explain a bit more ...

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Thanks, I guess we should stop reasoning, if you havnt understood my earlier posts, that must not have bothered you to reply me...

[QUOTE]

Yes I totally agree that courage is not the same type of virtue as justice. By definition they stem from different areas. Transitively? Please explain ...

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means we cannot even imply the meanings of each others...

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To take a moral action ... One needs to be convinced of what? Please explain ...

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I say by the very nature of human being it is not possible, but with some motivation. if you say that moral action are possible without motivation, then prove rationally, how. And plz dont just assume jusitce as if justice is moral and things done with justice are also moral, rather you should prove rationally that justice is moral, then you can continue.

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ok so you might be saying that without religion we randomly stumble across moral things, but it takes religion to encode that and religion classifies it as a moral act whereas without religion we would be none the wiser.

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not sure i get this part...

Randomly taken actions includes both, good and bad, and that deficient capability cannot lead human being to develop a moral framework or come accorss an idea like morality. Again here we need a motivation...

[QUOTE]

Verse 14:34 Sounds like it is speaking to the people who believe in God already. Ungratefulness in Allah stems from a lack of awareness and taqwa in Him. But this verse does not refer to how people interact with each other, it is to do with our interaction with Allah (SWT) ...

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yes this verse does not refer to how people interact with each other specifically, but that tells about the nature of human being that is it is unjust.
Being a follower or merely using the name of religion does not mean that one is working under the (moral)framework of religion.

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I don't actually understand the forgiveness and motivation paragraph, please explain a bit more ...
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means if you give me example like, forgiveness is possible without relgion, then there must be a motivation i as said earlier in this post, deal with that.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Peace ajazali

Please refer to my post (number 49 of this thread) ...

[quote]
A tit for tat ethic is still a form of goodness it is merely less good than the concept of forgiveness. Aspects of forgiveness do exist with the maternal model too. However, this is when people leave rationale and include "well being" in to their equations for assessing what is good or bad.
[/quote]

Forgiveness does exist between mother to her children - out of her maternal nature ... A non-religious philosopher can conclude that all people should be like mothers to other people.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

existance of forgiveness aspect in maternal model is not morality.
if you forgive someone because you already love his/him then it is not morality, it simply what you like...

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Good point Ejaz. Do we have example of forgiveness like forgiveness given by the Prophet to people of Makka at the time of conquest of Makka? Do we have examples of simplicity and accommodating religious views of conquered areas as was conveyed by Hazrat Umar (RA) at the time of conquest of Palestine?

What was behind such attitude? religion or natural morality derived from the atmosphere. Remember, Arab atmosphere before the advent of Islam. non-stopping wars for centuries and unending enmity between tribes for decades old incidents. What was the leading force for such behavior then?

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Firstly, I disagree that forgiveness of mother is not morality ... You have a very stingy concept of morality. For you justice is not morality and now even forgiveness of mother is not morality.

Secondly, even if we agree with you that motherly forgiveness is not moral ... But when the non- religious uses this example of motherly love on the rest of humans then that is being moral.

Thirdly, I said that religion is needed for enhancing morality ... So I believe you are trying to use the most highest levels of morality to counter my position and the more basic aspects of morality you say are not even moral.

as I said it comes down to how you define the boundaries of morality we are saying the same thing, but my definition of morality includes more things. I don't see a reason to move from this understanding.

Jesus (AS) allegedly said according to the Bible, I feel the essence of it is true ... He (AS) takes it a step further ... He says that being good to those who are good to us is not pious, but to be good to those who are unkind to us ... Love thy enemy.

so one one hand we can be good to those who are good to us, secondly we can be good to those who don't show us kindness, thirdly we can be good those who show us hatred ... All of these are good ... And moral ...

One can be a Muslim, Mu'min and a Muh'sin ... All of these are moral ... They merely have degrees in morality.

If a person who does good things all his life without Iman ... Then takes Shahadah, then through the Mercy of Allah (SWT) all his good actions he did in the past will become counted ...

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

To reply you, i need to repeat things which i dont want to do anymore...
Thanks...

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

I don’t understand what is the point of disagreement. :hmmm:

A mother will love her child in same way irrespective of her belonging to a particular religion. someone may term it natural affection and some may term it moral obligation. Though, personally, I believe that obligation type relation doesn’t exist in relationship like mother-children.

The actual test of morality begins while dealing with those people who are not loved one to us or who are our enemies and dealing with those persons, religious teaching do play positive role as I mentioned in my post no. 92 above.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

Human history is full such examples, even the "morality" was there...

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

I think tribal codes were there and those codes had made people believe that 'burying daughters alive' was also not an immoral act. Sometimes, acceptable norms becomes morality of a society.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

A person (of primitive times, dont know what is religion) going along some path, someone came next to him and slap in his face, would you expect that person that he would retaliate with fair response? obviously not, he would rather respond with more number of slaps naturally, that is nature of human being.

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

can we say sometimes some people are different? They are exception to expectations.

There may be people (not religious) who can correspond positively when they meet something negative, but in case of religious people this exception become rule. Just thinking :hmmm:

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Re: Secularism and Atheism

in that situation, if you imagine being realistic, you would hardly find such person, but even if you could find, that would mean nothing to what actually is required to developm morality framework. Again, good and bad things exists, if we say that this behaviour is enough to develop morality framework then no need of guidance of God, that is false.

And if we say that is less moral, then why less moral cannt become more moral gradually and exclude the need of religious guidance ultimately?