Secularism and Atheism

[muqawwee123]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

in that situation, if you imagine being realistic, you would hardly find such person, but even if you could find, that would mean nothing to what actually is required to developm morality framework. Again, good and bad things exists, if we say that this behaviour is enough to develop morality framework then no need of guidance of God, that is false.

And if we say that is less moral, then why less moral cannt become more moral gradually and excluding the need of religious guidance?

If we agree that morality framework is developed by religion, is this framework same all around the world where that religion is practiced? Lets consider example of Islam and moral framework it provided. Is it same in Saudi Arabia as well as Malaysia?

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

If we agree that morality framework is developed by religion, is this framework same all around the world where that religion is practiced? Lets consider example of Islam and moral framework it provided. Is it same in Saudi Arabia as well as Malaysia?

They differ because of personal difference and missunderstanding, religion does not contradict with itself. Being a muslim I believe that basic message of all religions had been same, revelations continue updating according to Will of Allah(s.w.t)

[muqawwee123]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

They differ because of personal difference and missunderstanding, religion does not contradict with itself. Being a muslim I believe that basic message of all religion had been same, revelations continue updating according to Will of Allah(s.w.t)

I meant whether religious framework is affected by social / cultural codes of a society, thats why the comparison of morality of two different countries following same religion.

Isn't it possible that people ( having different religions / or who don't believe in any religion) living together start adapting morals of other religions? Over the time, one can't distinguish where from the morality was driven?

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

I meant whether religious framework is affected by social / cultural codes of a society, thats why the comparison of morality of two different countries following same religion.

Isn't it possible that people ( having different religions / or who don't believe in any religion) living together start adapting morals of other religions? Over the time, one can't distinguish where from the morality was driven?

You can give some example of those differing moralities.
However, if the some religion part of morality if affected by social and cultural codes, that means some people purposely includes few things as morality in interpretation of Religious scripture which is dishonesty itself, philosophically. So that is not morality when you are not accepting your Holy scripture as absolute reference.

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Rather it works other way around i think, as you know, several religious things of hinduism are considered to be part of our culture.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

You can give some example of those differing moralities. However, if the some religion part of morality if affected by social and cultural codes, that means some people purposely includes few things as morality in interpretation of Religious scripture which is dishonesty itself, philosophically. So that is not morality when you are not accepting your Holy scripture as absolute reference.

Its not about not accepting Holy scripture as an absolute reference. I think majority can't distinguish between the absolute teaching of religion and those which entered into religion due to interaction with people from other religion and ideologies.

There have been changes in Indian society after the introduction of Islam forming new moral codes which are even followed by non-Muslims and Muslims who lived in India for centuries adapted many things from Indian society which are now followed by sub-continent Muslims (majority of them) without knowing whether those are pure Islamic values or not.

In short, we can agree that religions develop moral framework, but they don't run in vacuum over the long time, especially when religion spread and come into interaction with other religions / ideologies.

[psyah]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Ajazali is saying that Morality is only so if - some good act is done selflessly, with full intent, otherwise it does not cut the mustard.

He is further asserting that such an act cannot come of its own accord - it must be fueled by a religious motive.

I'm saying any act of good is part of morality and the type of act that ajazali is talking about is a high moral.

Regarding high moral acts - I'm not so convinced that these are always a result of some religious motive ... I feel there is a chance they can come about otherwise.

Instead of trying so hard to push me - we should acknowledge where we both stand and respect this as a difference of opinion.

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Ajazali is saying that Morality is only so if - some good act is done selflessly, with full intent, otherwise it does not cut the mustard.

He is further asserting that such an act cannot come of its own accord - it must be fueled by a religious motive.

I'm saying any act of good is part of morality and the type of act that ajazali is talking about is a high moral.

Regarding high moral acts - I'm not so convinced that these are always a result of some religious motive ... I feel there is a chance they can come about otherwise.

Instead of trying so hard to push me - we should acknowledge where we both stand and respect this as a difference of opinion.

I simply didnt replied you to your last post, I let you go undefeated to save your pride, what else you want?
Perhaps you are not satisfied with your own arguments and are not convincing people enough.

see, i will just mention your opinions and it will again force you to reply this post...

you assume "nature is adl(justice)" no rational argument provided though
then you shift your stanace to "justice is less moral", no rational argument provided though
then you shift to some very poor example, like "Forgiveness in maternal model". this can be considered as rational argument but again it is just an example, where a mother love her own child, she but naturally would not sacrifice her own child's interest over other child's interest from another mother.
but if you still consder it morality then you are entitled to your opnion.

You have your own definition of Morality, that is everything can be dealt in terms of less moral or more moral. its ok if people use to use these terms but you are stumbling around this argument without any rational reason.

Just one thing i want to know what is you religious drive to defend your point?

P.S. considering the title of thread most of our discussion was irrelevant to topic, i could have removed these posts but i rather go for challenging position. you can continue you reasoning but i am about to stop reasoning, when oneside have alread made mind that they are perfect in reasoning then it is better to stay away from such dicussion, it is mind exausting....

[psyah]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

I simply didnt replied you to your last post, I let you go undefeated to save your pride, what else you want? Perhaps you are not satisfied with your own arguments and are not convincing people enough.

see, i will just mention your opinions and it will again force you to reply this post...

you assume "nature is adl(justice)" no rational argument provided though then you shift your stanace to "justice is less moral", no rational argument provided though then you shift to some very poor example, like "Forgiveness in maternal model". this can be considered as rational argument but again it is just an example, where a mother love her own child, she but naturally would not sacrifice her own child's interest over other child's interest from another mother. but if you still consder it morality then you are entitled to your opnion.

You have your own definition of Morality, that is everything can be dealt in terms of less moral or more moral. its ok if people use to use these terms but you are stumbling around this argument without any rational reason.

Just one thing i want to know what is you religious drive to defend your point?

P.S. considering the title of thread most of our discussion was irrelevant to topic, i could have removed these posts but i rather go for challenging position. you can continue you reasoning but i am about to stop reasoning, when oneside have alread made mind that they are perfect in reasoning then it is better to stay away from such dicussion, it is mind exausting....

Peace ajazali

You are funny ... I didn't have an argument with you ... I was merely trying my hardest to understand you and then to contextualise what I was saying.

yes, it will force me to reply because your quote of my opinions is being done erroneously ...

I said nature has two aspects Fitra and nufs ... I gave an earlier example of how good can about through philosophical thinking ... Such as returning a favour ... Which is based on the idea of adl(justice) ... I didn't say nature is adl ...

I never shifted my stance either ... I always have maintained that there are grades of goodness ... If you don't believe me you can see very old posts that I have written and in this thread too that demonstrate that I do not hold a binary idea of good and bad.

I gave the example of the mother not so it would be compared to another mother ... Rather I was showing how a mother can forbear every injustice that her child causes her through love.

I also showed how this matter is not concrete that lots of people have written about morality and they differ from each other.

My drive ... Is not about defending my point ... It is about being understood.

For some more examples ... I have seen how many people without religion in their lives have a strong love for caring for animals and for the environment ... Some of them will sacrifice their lives for their goals to defend someone's honour or for a principle.

But you are right this is a major diversion from the thread title ...

BTW ... I'm not in the habit of simplifying religion or the topic of morality just because it is convenient. I am a deeply religious person, and where I see merit in non- religious people I have to be honest and mention it. Even if it complicates the nice picture that having a religion means we are good ... I have to speak the truth ... I see both very much immorality in some religious people because of how religion is interpreted and I see some morality in people without religion ... May be your society prevents that to be seen. Allahu'alim.

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

all your premises fitra is adl, its moral, less moral, more moral, are without any rational arguments. And you are persisting with these things, but I am not in habbit of winning situation by persisting opinions, espacially when someone ask me for rational arguments to back my opinion.

[psyah]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Well Islam states that we are born into a state of fitra … Islam also states that Allah (SWT) is Just … What is the state of fitra? What does it actually mean?

Here is a good place … Fitra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Quote=Wikipedia]
According to Islamic theology, human beings are born with an innate inclination of tawhid (Oneness), which is encapsulated in the fitra along with compassion, intelligence, ihsan and all other attributes that embody what it is to be human.
[/Quote]

You don’t have to accept my opinion, but at least accept that I have my evidence for my opinion. Otherwise you have levelled a big claim against me … If I am presenting things to you without rational argument then basically I am pointlessly arguing with you from my whim … Some sort of zidd, is that right? Am I being dishonest in my discourse? Please say …

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Now again, you are using religious concepts to prove your point which for philosopher is an assumption, amusing thing is you have to consult Wikipedia to confirm religious belief. Whereas, here in this thread I want prove my point with general rational arguments. Problem with your reasoning is you have been switching between two, rational and irrational arguments, when you are countered.

Furthermore, what you need to get my point is imagination. Maybe you lack this capability, that is, to imagine this world this without religion, and then continue to prove what you want to prove with rational arguments. why you are required to imagine this world without religion because today most of moral standard are extracted from the practices of religious moral framework, you may take it as my claim, and can prove it wrong, but only by rational reasoning, where you have to prove that why one would act morally without any motivation.
This was the thesis of the thread on morality we had.

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

The same link says

The perfect embodiments of fitra were Abraham and Muhammad.
.
.
.
The sunan al-fitra (lit., “customs of nature”) are a collection of hygienic or cosmetic practices enjoined by Muhammad as consistent with fitra:

'A’isha reported: Muhammad said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the mustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubic hair and cleaning one’s private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim, II.502) [2]

Fitra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Abraham and Muhammad are perfect embodiments means we, other are with nature of doing good and bad… This capability cannot lead human being to build a morality framework. That is somewhat same I have already said that, Allah may bestow anyone with Moral nature. since you are using the religious concept so i say, if we are moral by nature then what is the need of religion to make us moral, like the guidance to us, to give charity, to take pity, etc..?

next part, sunan al-fitra, is telling that it is irrelevant what you want to get out of it.

[psyah]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

It is because we also have nufs and we are also easily deceived ... We are moral and immoral and foolish by nature. Religion teaches us how to make the best use of fitrah, how to conquer the nufs and what to do to be protected from the deceivers (shayateen).

[psyah]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

Now again, you are using religious concepts to prove your point which for philosopher is an assumption, amusing thing is you have to consult Wikipedia to confirm religious belief. Whereas, here in this thread I want prove my point with general rational arguments. Problem with your reasoning is you have been switching between two, rational and irrational arguments, when you are countered.

Furthermore, what you need to get my point is imagination. Maybe you lack this capability, that is, to imagine this world this without religion, and then continue to prove what you want to prove with rational arguments. why you are required to imagine this world without religion because today most of moral standard are extracted from the practices of religious moral framework, you may take it as my claim, and can prove it wrong, but only by rational reasoning, where you have to prove that why one would act morally without any motivation. This was the thesis of the thread on morality we had.

Dear ajazali ... you asked me to provide a rational argument as to why I think the seeking of adl (justice) is part of our fitrah, to do this I have to resort to religion ... because the fitra concept comes from religion.

[ajazali]

Re: Secularism and Atheism

It is because we also have nufs and we are also easily deceived ... We are moral and immoral and foolish by nature. Religion teaches us how to make the best use of fitrah, how to conquer the nufs and what to do to be protected from the deceivers (shayateen).

Dear ajazali ... you asked me to provide a rational argument as to why I think the seeking of adl (justice) is part of our fitrah, to do this I have to resort to religion ... because the fitra concept comes from religion.

ok I see your rational arguments.
Thanks plz...