It is said that atheism is not same as secularism, and atheism is not same as humanism. Practically, there is link between secularism and so-called humanism as most of the secularists use the term humanism as a tool to spread secularism. I think there is a positive correlation between secularism and atheism and secularism and atheism will be going hand in hand in future.
If there is no link between secularism and atheism, then why all the secular countries have higher rate of adopting atheism?
Re: Secularism and Atheism
being secular is not being anti religion. I heard this very frequently. Why then all secular don’t miss a chance to bash religion and religious people? 
kahin qatl huwa, rape huwa, gaRi ka tyre puncture huwa… its all because of religion.. kiya secular doodh main dhule huwe hain?
Re: Secularism and Atheism
I have gradually altered my position over the past few years regarding secularism, atheism and humanism.
As for secularism - I believed that it is the antithesis of religion, but now I'm beginning to change from that opinion
As for atheism - I believed that it represented a heterogenous group of people who have no religion - I have clearly moved away from that too.
As for humanism - I had no clear concept about it - but I see it as a conscious attempt to bring all the benefits of religion without Deity in to the lives of people.
I believe secularism has two subtly different understandings based on who or what is said to be secular.
1) A secular government or country need not have secular leadership
2) A secular leader however would ensure that the government is secular too
3) It is also possible for neither country nor leader to be secular
Until recently I only recognised type 2 and 3 and didn't realise that type 1 is a possible way to live. As can be seen the term 'secular' would refer to ... Governance
The term 'atheism' is not about governance - it is about the philosophical position that reality is limited to what can be discerned through objective sensory means. Since God as a concept cannot be discerned in that way they conclude that the God concept is unreal.
Atheism is a counter-theology (i.e. a set of beliefs/or disbeliefs)
Humanism - is intended to place the "decision of humans" derived from "our desires and comforts" as authority over humans. So supports atheism because an atheistic belief stems from a set of human made decisions (influenced from the hawa) about God, and it also supports secularism because that too on face value seems to side step religion.
What is interesting is that should any populous vote for a religious outlook or decide something based on a religious wisdom quite often the reverse may be ruled. It is quite possible for a leader to make decisions that are in accordance with a Divine System - that we should not be seeking to fuel or feed the egos of mankind, but we should seek to control them through self-control.
A secular state with a religious leader differs from a non-secular state with a religious leadership in the sense that in both case the leadership will be religious, however in the non-secular case the populace will be forced to emulate the leader, whereas in the case of the secular state the populace will merely be encouraged to be like the leader and not given a hard time for doing what they will in matters of faith.
The only time when state and religion were in the same hands i.e. when the ulema were the leaders and at the same time there was justice was in the first few generations .... Thereafter the monarchs who sought council from Shuyukh were the best governments and those were the most stable. Whenever there has been an attempt to put power and religion back in the same hands then oppression resulted.
With the much newer democracies being in place - the ulema have become further side-lined ... However now people are beginning to democratically elect religious people as presidents and prime ministers who consult the ulema.
The way humanism works is that it is based on structured hedonism ... So it will reject anything that it deems to be counter-productive to the idea of human happiness - which in many cases will mean many 'moral' things may be outlawed by humanists if they gain power.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
Peace psyah
You explained the 3 types of secularism but i would like to know what secularism according to your POV is?
Secularism and atheism seem to be distinct and clear what they are about. But, as i said, practically, secularism has somewhat link to atheism and I derive it from a question that is why one need secularism.
I agree that atheism is not about governing people but in secular societies where there is a higher tendency to adopt atheism, same people will be governing the states, so you may come up with some new governing systems.
Here are some links i observed between secularism and atheism...(no offense to anyone)
Atheism opposes the control of religion over state, its institutes, and its assets, so do secularists.
In a fight between theists and atheists secular are most likely to side with atheists or to oppose theists.
Atheists and secular both claim to follow humanist approach, where as a truely religious secular person need not anyother framework but the religion he/she follows.
The premise is, there is direct/positive correlation between secularism and atheism.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
It is said that atheism is not same as secularism, and atheism is not same as humanism. Practically, there is link between secularism and so-called humanism as most of the secularists use the term humanism as a tool to spread secularism. I think there is a positive correlation between secularism and atheism and secularism and atheism will be going hand in hand in future.
If there is no link between secularism and atheism, then why all the secular countries have higher rate of adopting atheism?
secularism permits people to pursue whatever ideas of faith appeal to them without fear of persecution. those who can't come to grips with the illogical aspects of organized religions will often go for mellower interpretations, agnosticism, atheism etc.
also, i find this amusing that you guys have no shame in trying to link atheism with all kinds of things. but when anyone tries to link islam with terrorism, its all defensive blahblah. take a look at other people's beliefs with the same way as you want yours to be looked at by those outside of it.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
Before we make this thing very complicated and become arm-chair philosophers let me make this very simple for those who identify themselves as "Muslim" which I assume would be the majority here. Secularism basically says that laws and conjunctions should be man-made and not derived from religious text. It basically says that a group of random people (yeah they are qualified as politicians or whatever etc) can sit down and decide what laws are deemed good for humanity. Someone who eats, sleeps, talks, has hopes/fears, panics, goes to the bathroom, gets diarrhea etc. like me can come up with a law that he/she deems "good" for society and I am obliged to follow it. As a muslim, this means you reject the laws given by Allah-basically saying you don't believe in them to be the best laws-and instead opt for laws made by someone who came out of a woman's private part. So if one rejects the laws given by Allah and deems man-made laws are superior, how safe is his/her eman? Is there any eman left to save? How can a muslim be a muslim and say I believe in allah as the creator of heavens and earth and the universe, and yet I choose laws made by some dudes over his laws? So with muslims there is an inherent conflict between secularim/democracy and Islam as accepting the divine laws is an essential part of faith. Besides, I would rather follow the laws of someone who created the universe over someone who doesn't even know if they will be allowed their next breath. Here you have men who can't handle their own households and they want to make laws they claim are good for the whole society. So the equation for muslim is very simple without having to get all philosophical about.. Allah=creator of universe including all humans=gave us laws on how to live our lives.
Man=came from private part of a woman-does not know where his next meal will come from, yet alone decide what's good for humanity.
Muslim cannot reject Allah's law as that equates to rejecting Allah's power and wisdom over everything=kufr
The creator's law=always going to be superior than the laws made by the created.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
I would rather follow the laws of someone who created the universe over someone who don't even know if they will be allowed their next breath.
and from which shariah ruled land is this amazingly observant muslim posting from?
if all this is indeed true and not just feel-good fluff that has no real practical use, why arent muslim countries implementing shariah rule? why the delay? what is the wait for?
Re: Secularism and Atheism
and from which shariah ruled land is this amazingly observant muslim posting from?
if all this is indeed true and not just feel-good fluff that has no real practical use, why arent muslim countries implementing shariah rule? why the delay? what is the wait for?
Queer if you happen to be ignorant of a something, you should not comment on it. Do you understand Shariah law? DO you know it's history? DO you understand it's implications? Or must you be another one of CNN's brainwashed masses? You want real practical use of Shariah? Umms lets see Queer. When the Shariah was implemented, your ancestors were subdued under the Khalifa Umer R.A and conquered just as inferior peoples have been throughout history. I would say Shariah helping the Islamic Empires as one of the biggest the world has ever seen would be quite a "practical" result don't you? I mean you should know since your ancestors were a part of that conquest. More "practical" results. O.k. It was during Khilafat that Islam experienced its golden age..the Islamic Renaissance- if you will and produced some of the brightest minds in history. As for why it's not implemented today, well that's another story for another time. Let me ask you, is it required that one must be an atheist to be queer? I mean is that the "in thing" nowadays? I get the impression, that's the image you picked up on and are going for.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
Here in Pakistan they have an excuse of Taliban to scron religious people, but what sort of terrorism is being spread through church in west? So this actually is an unacceptability and intolerance for religion in general IMO.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
excellent example of religiously observant people’s inability to even have a normal conversation. 
and this is why we need secularism, or your kind will destroy the fabric of civil society with such bongiyaan.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
You see I initially felt that "secularism asserts that laws should be man-made" - but I have changed my opinion regarding this definition. Rather I see secularism being "rule and governance by other than the religious leadership" which gives room for anyone to be leader regardless of his religion or how devoutly he follows it or how much of his faith he decides to apply to the law. If he is atheist then he will apply a law that is in his best capacity. If he is a good Muslim he will most likely choose to apply a law that conforms to the Shari'ah as much as possible.
Also, in the past I felt that religious leaders should be in power, but I have changed from that position too ... I feel religious leaders should be used for guidance by people in power, but not be in power themselves, unless of course it is The Mahdi or Isa (AS).
Secularism is myopic to how the law is made - by definition in order to be secular then it will be blind to laws being made from a religious basis, personal basis or a popular basis.
A person should not be secular in his ways ... But the governance of a country should be based on justice. How that justice is determined depends on the people in charge and how they take from the people in positions of guidance. The burden of having the knowledge and power in one person becomes way too much for many people and they often turn in to tyrants.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
Queer since you are such an intellect and also an atheist, you should know that historically, people are divided into two categories: the conquerors and the conquered. This is not from religious pov but historically that’s how its observed. Secondly, you must also be a big supporter of evolution, and your own theory of evolution will tell you that the superior species will dominate and survive over the inferior (in terms of ability to adapt biologically) will phase out. You are so unsure of your own views, as according to your evolution theory , your kind are an anomaly and counter productive to the survival model of evolution. Basically, evolution says that your type are useless and a complete waste of space on earth from an evolutionary point of view as each organisms goals is to reproduce and pass down its genes. So please clarify your own existence first and decide what point of view you are going to come from. Don’t just play that " i am gay and atheist and therefore more sophisticated to be accepted by the ghoras.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
Peace notthatguy
You are giving queer far too much attention … 
Re: Secularism and Atheism
You see I initially felt that "secularism asserts that laws should be man-made" - but I have changed my opinion regarding this definition. Rather I see secularism being "rule and governance by other than the religious leadership" which gives room for anyone to be leader regardless of his religion or how devoutly he follows it or how much of his faith he decides to apply to the law. If he is atheist then he will apply a law that is in his best capacity. If he is a good Muslim he will most likely choose to apply a law that conforms to the Shari'ah as much as possible.
Also, in the past I felt that religious leaders should be in power, but I have changed from that position too ... I feel religious leaders should be used for guidance by people in power, but not be in power themselves, unless of course it is The Mahdi or Isa (AS).
Secularism is myopic to how the law is made - by definition in order to be secular then it will be blind to laws being made from a religious basis, personal basis or a popular basis.
A person should not be secular in his ways ... But the governance of a country should be based on justice. How that justice is determined depends on the people in charge and how they take from the people in positions of guidance. The burden of having the knowledge and power in one person becomes way too much for many people and they often turn in to tyrants.
this approach is let it happen right?
and this is the same approach that lead us here we are today, that religion is personal matter, no one can tell others what is right and what is wrong for society...
Re: Secularism and Atheism
what about constitution of secular system?
Re: Secularism and Atheism
this approach is let it happen right? and this is the same approach that lead us here we are today, that religion is personal matter, no one can tell others what is right and what is wrong for society...
Well in principle that is true ... However, how most secular societies are overcoming this problem is by using the subtle approach - which is the media - They use the media to TELL others what is right and wrong (and that is very much according to an atheist agenda) and this is how Muslims or anyone representing a religious position have failed. We never used the subtle approach.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
You may be right brother..gota start ignoring.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
interesting. and what makes you think you aren’t the conquered? especially given that you are from the subcontinent?
looks to me like you have an inferiority complex about being conquered people, and mask it behind all this shariah-for-all talk that doesnt hold any practical value except pandering to your conquerors.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
I’m sorry but I think bold statements are contradictory to each other. How I got permission to pursue my faith when for most of the secular lot religions are just something beyond logic and they express it openly without knowing that they offending the followers. Permission comes after you got tolerance for something. so how secularism is more tolerant than ideology like Taleban with this approach?
Why should not someone then say that secular are against religion or in other words to prove their logic they need to prove others faith is illogical.
Re: Secularism and Atheism
secularism permits people to pursue whatever ideas of faith appeal to them without fear of persecution. those who can't come to grips with the illogical aspects of organized religions will often go for mellower interpretations, agnosticism, atheism etc.
also, i find this amusing that you guys have no shame in trying to link atheism with all kinds of things. but when anyone tries to link islam with terrorism, its all defensive blahblah. take a look at other people's beliefs with the same way as you want yours to be looked at by those outside of it.
so far, i said that there is a link between secularism and atheism and that evident from your post defending secularism. Which is better, religion or secularism is another story.