Secular Pakistan

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Why would Turks be disappointed with their system? Turkey has a MUCH better living standard then Pak, it has better social indicators, its economy is continuing to grow.

The secular system has served them exceptionally well, as their economy is STILL growing. Only a fool would want to replace a system that works, with a system thats a failure (Islamist theocracy) everywhere else in the world... Secularism is a proven success, what successes can Islamic govts or nations boast of?

Sir their is no great difference but secular cartoons are so afraid to leave their evil values that they do this propaganda

[sharaabee]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Sir their is no great difference but secular cartoons are so afraid to leave their evil values that they do this propaganda

wtF?

you know you are a JOKE on this forum, right?

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

wtF?

you know you are a JOKE on this forum, right?

I know some Secular people don't like me but I stand for Islam and fight for Islam

[sharaabee]

Re: Secular Pakistan

I know some Secular people don't like me but I stand for Islam and fight for Islam

But there is ample evidence there many muslim posters on here think you're an idiot. How do you feel about that?

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

I know some Secular people don't like me but I stand for Islam and fight for Islam

Mukobhai. Breadth of opinion is necessary for a society to function. Your views are always welcome.

But please - don't claim that you stand for Islam and fight for Islam.

If you had said you fight for your particular version of Islam - and fight for that version - that would have been perfectly acceptable. Please do not claim you speak for all of Islam/Muslims. While this is not explicit in your post(s), it is implicit.

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

The answer is simple. Because even within an Islamic society, there is a vast amount of diversity of opinion. You cannot implement one system without antagonizing another.

Secularism removes the conflict by not endorsing any one system over another.

THIS!

[Captain1]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Why would Turks be disappointed with their system? Turkey has a MUCH better living standard then Pak, it has better social indicators, its economy is continuing to grow.

The secular system has served them exceptionally well, as their economy is STILL growing. Only a fool would want to replace a system that works, with a system thats a failure (Islamist theocracy) everywhere else in the world... Secularism is a proven success, what successes can Islamic govts or nations boast of?

When did I say they are "disappointed" with their system? What I am saying is that Turks have seen "secularism", may be they will adopt best of both "secularism" and Islamic principles. BTW, "secularism" is not a "proven" success, more like education and to an extent capitalism, but that is different topic altogether.

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@Captain1

When did I say they are "disappointed" with their system? What I am saying is that Turks have seen "secularism", may be they will adopt best of both "secularism" and Islamic principles. BTW, "secularism" is not a "proven" success, more like education and to an extent capitalism, but that is different topic altogether.

Secular countries have fewer religious conflicts... They arent accused of undermining the rights of minority religious groups. I live in a secular country, as to do many other people with various religious backgrounds, without any tension or oppression of any kind. The social stability afforded by such a system allows for the basis of a vibrant economy. Can you say the same of Pakistan, Saudia, Iran, Afghanistan... Seems the system is success to me. It may not work in every instance, but most countries that are progressing or developed are secular, where as those calling themselves Islamic are considered clowns. Look at Saudi with their female driving ban for instances, and all their other moronic rules.

The US has in God we trust printed on its money. George Bush, Obama, Tony Blair, Erdogan of Trukey, all leaders who live in officialy secular countries but are religious and inspired by their religion. Secular here simply means the govt does not endorse, nor proscribe any religious belief. People are free to practice as they like, on a personal level, but the govt will not involve itself in religious matters in any way. That does not mean that we ignore religion, we can ofcourse apply those aspects of faith to laws, but they would still officially be secular laws. For example, many laws in the US, passed by secular govt composed of mostly Christian members, smack of being Islamic in nature.

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Sir their is no great difference but secular cartoons are so afraid to leave their evil values that they do this propaganda

Seriously, this guy must be some sort of computer virus generating random nonsense to every post...

[khoji]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Islam is not a monolithic religion. So a country who wants to be Islamic only becomes a follower of some specific school.
And then the problem starts. Because then they impose their school's views on others who do not follow their school. Example: Saudis, Iranians, Taliban, etc.

Solution is to keep the country secular and allow everyone to follow whatever they want. Example: Turkey. Even the Islamic oriented party of Erdogan denies that it wants to change the secular laws of the country.

Today Muslims have two models to follow. Turkey and Saudi.
Saudi model is a failed model but people are afraid to follow Turkish model. They are afraid because they have misunderstanding that secular = atheist.

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Islam is not a monolithic religion. So a country who wants to be Islamic only becomes a follower of some specific school. And then the problem starts. Because then they impose their school's views on others who do not follow their school. Example: Saudis, Iranians, Taliban, etc.

Solution is to keep the country secular and allow everyone to follow whatever they want. Example: Turkey. Even the Islamic oriented party of Erdogan denies that it wants to change the secular laws of the country.

Today Muslims have two models to follow. Turkey and Saudi. Saudi model is a failed model but people are afraid to follow Turkish model. They are afraid because they have misunderstanding that secular = atheist.

this is view is carried by the majority advocating secularism and most of time this view is because of little or no knowledge of how Islam have taught us to run a govt.

Islam do not discriminate against any religion nor so imposing a certain school's jurisdiction is way out of islamic ruling, there are only few things Islam focuses and those few things are the key ingredients of most of the developed societies or i must are the foundation stone to have Islamic welfare state, few of those are as follows:

1) Justice for all, no body is above the law ( not even the governor or president), every is accountable to the Law. Islams says that a Kafir govt have right to survive over an unjust muslim govt. When a society is formed on justice, then there is little chances of discrimination and other evils which we have in Pakistan mainly because of non-existence or very expensive Justice system.

2) Wealth Distribution, Islam being a universal religions knows the importance of Economic activity in any society, therefore, there are few things Islam have taught to its followers, which should be the law: No to interest rates, yes it is very much possible, people who thinks that economy cannot survive without interest, please have look what major economies like UK and USA did during the financial crisis in order to limit damage and for recovery, yes the brought the interest rate to 0... once you have this done, the inflation can be controlled, the price hike and hike in commodities are manageable... all in all, Islamic Economy is not money centered but it is centered around the welfare of the being...

The post has already gone long, i can carry on, but would like to conclude this post by saying that, Islam is the first Secular Religion introduced to man-kind, which garantees peace for follower of any religion, yes the notion which west have realized now, was in practice in Islam for well-over thousand year...

Now some smart person may comeup saying that in today's world due to certain differences between the muslims such govt can't be formed...but i am sure none of them is going to tell me that which Islamic cult is against the justice, which is in favor of interest and which cult is against living in peace, as if there is any then it need to eliminated ( As Islam labels them FASADIES and order Jihad against them)

[khoji]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Hanibal, the points you gave are not considered "Islamic" enough by most people. On the other hand, some don't consider interest unIslamic at all.
And that's the problem. Everyone draws lines according to his own understanding.

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Hanibal, the points you gave are not considered "Islamic" enough by most people. On the other hand, some don't consider interest unIslamic at all. And that's the problem. Everyone draws lines according to his own understanding.

can you back your claims with the religious teaching of the some??? on both... Justice and Interest in not matter of ahadees where one can agree or disagree it is plainly written in Quran so i would love to see the sects in Islam station otherwise... ( would be surprised if it is called Islam)

2ndly i know many would consider justice something non-islamic, as they think that justice system cannot be part of Islam... they may go to an extend to call it an import or innovation

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^^ Thats exactly the thing

If the justification at the end of the day is that X,Y,Z is going to happen/be law - because the Quran/Hadees say so - PERIOD, I think thats what puts people off. If it changes to lets do this because this would bring A,B,C beneficial changes in society - and well the Quran/Sunnah say it as well - I think that would be fine.

And in most cases that I think it has to do with hudd punishments - witness testimony - womens rights - inheritance. Not stuff like economic policies, profit sharing is pretty popular I think, not the other stuff.

And for many things that you in your earlier post said that most sects would agree on. Lets take something other than homosexuality - fornication - rape - adultery - because they more or less seem consistent on those (except Hero Ghamdi of course). How about purdah? Is that something personal? In an Islamic State that all sects are okay with - would women be required/forced to observe pardah (hijab? abaya? shuttlecock burka?) I think some would say yes - some would say no.

And how about freedom of speech in an Islamic State that all sects agree on. In an IslState would there be a blasphemy law? I myself wouldn't say anything derogatory about the Prophet. But I would like others to have the right to say it.

[khoji]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@hanibal

can you back your claims with the religious teaching of the some???

One example:

http://www.alulbayt.com/rulings/10.htm

**Q6) **I get Interest on my account in the bank. So what should I do while living in the west?**A6) That is halal.](“http://www.alulbayt.com/rulings/10.htm”)

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

this is view is carried by the majority advocating secularism and most of time this view is because of little or no knowledge of how Islam have taught us to run a govt.

Islam do not discriminate against any religion nor so imposing a certain school's jurisdiction is way out of islamic ruling, there are only few things Islam focuses and those few things are the key ingredients of most of the developed societies or i must are the foundation stone to have Islamic welfare state, few of those are as follows:

1) Justice for all, no body is above the law ( not even the governor or president), every is accountable to the Law. Islams says that a Kafir govt have right to survive over an unjust muslim govt. When a society is formed on justice, then there is little chances of discrimination and other evils which we have in Pakistan mainly because of non-existence or very expensive Justice system.

2) Wealth Distribution, Islam being a universal religions knows the importance of Economic activity in any society, therefore, there are few things Islam have taught to its followers, which should be the law: No to interest rates, yes it is very much possible, people who thinks that economy cannot survive without interest, please have look what major economies like UK and USA did during the financial crisis in order to limit damage and for recovery, yes the brought the interest rate to 0... once you have this done, the inflation can be controlled, the price hike and hike in commodities are manageable... all in all, Islamic Economy is not money centered but it is centered around the welfare of the being...

The post has already gone long, i can carry on, but would like to conclude this post by saying that, Islam is the first Secular Religion introduced to man-kind, which garantees peace for follower of any religion, yes the notion which west have realized now, was in practice in Islam for well-over thousand year...

Now some smart person may comeup saying that in today's world due to certain differences between the muslims such govt can't be formed...but i am sure none of them is going to tell me that which Islamic cult is against the justice, which is in favor of interest and which cult is against living in peace, as if there is any then it need to eliminated ( As Islam labels them FASADIES and order Jihad against them)

Islam itself is ideal, but only in an ideal world. Wht Khoji is saying and I agree with, is that even though you and the rest of us have a very similar idea of what an Islamic system should be, there is no easy way of implimenting it because there will always be those who will disagree and create havoc in trying to impliment their own system. For example, how would you deal with extremists like the Taliban?

The problem is not in Islam, the problem is in Muslims. The process of creating an ideal state is fraught with perils that could be avoided by not imposing or endorsing any one religion or interpretation.

[pak-one]

Re: Secular Pakistan

The problem is not in Islam, the problem is in Muslims. The process of creating an ideal state is fraught with perils that could be avoided by not imposing or endorsing any one religion or interpretation.

That is a good point. While I am more on the conservative end and would support an Islamic state, I simply do not trust people to properly implement such a state. Cleaning up corruption, whether done by a secularist or Islamist, is the cure for Pakistan.

I would prefer a true nationalist government where the ideology of Pakistan (which was a mix of Islam and secularism) is upheld.

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Islam itself is ideal, but only in an ideal world. Wht Khoji is saying and I agree with, is that even though you and the rest of us have a very similar idea of what an Islamic system should be, there is no easy way of implimenting it because there will always be those who will disagree and create havoc in trying to impliment their own system. For example, how would you deal with extremists like the Taliban?

The problem is not in Islam, the problem is in Muslims. The process of creating an ideal state is fraught with perils that could be avoided by not imposing or endorsing any one religion or interpretation.

It took Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) 23 years to implement it, so you can do the maths

the points above are the very basis for any society, as i said in my reply, the others have taken this from us ( look at their system 200 years ago and how they implemented these two things) and how we took it out from our social lives...

It is the formula of a successful welfare state, If American, Japanese, Europeans can implement it, then it should be relatively easier for us, but we are of the notion that anything which is remotely related to Islam, should be said as either Ideal or non-practical for some odd reasons... we have people here who likes to go against the Islam in disguise of development and Moderation, mainly not recognizing any limits Religion has imposed on them and whatsoever, failing to acknowledge that these limits are key to set any society straight... and even the most moderate and developed society practice these limits... but as i understand that, we as a nation are not ready to have any Just and right form of govt... and this is the very reason we have Sharifs and Zardaries and IKs as our Idol... they day we get ready... we will have likes of Ibraham Lincoln in our sides ( the reason i have quoted the example of Ibraham Lincoln is to save heart attack to many if i had quoted here a muslim name)

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@khoji

One example:

http://www.alulbayt.com/rulings/10.htm

Q6) **I get Interest on my account in the bank. So what should I do while living in the west?**A6) That is halal.

I don’t know why you have selective approach, you pick and choose stuff you like or may i say that which suits them better and ignored what was written there about usury… your above quote is example for that, please do read the whole thing and you may ( only if you want to ) get some thing out of it, in the first question

Q1)** Is it permissible to get a bank loan, although I have searched everywhere including members of my umma for financial assistance and although they charge interest?**
A1) With the condition of paying interest, it is not permissible.

Ever wondered why he said NOT PERMISSIBLE here? it is because it is in some way option available for the person (unless and until he is on deathbed), person can select to get the loan on interest or select no to opt one…

Here is another question, which you for some reason neglected

Q3) Is working in a bank right for a person even that Islam says that interest is illegal?
A3) It is OK if there is no usury transaction.

Q5) I also have savings account with my company and company also gives interest on the saving annually. Is it Haram and should we decline interest or accept it?
A5) That is halal. (Since, you are living in the West, it is halal to take the interest in the both cases).

Here the Aalim ( Syed Sistani) means that you have no control over the situation whatsoever, and in the reply above this, he have suggested to offer the amount to charity…

Next time you decide to quote from some website, please do care to read it all..

Anyway, can you please explain why US and UK’s central bank brought the Interest rate to ZERO?

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^^ Thats exactly the thing

If the justification at the end of the day is that X,Y,Z is going to happen/be law - because the Quran/Hadees say so - PERIOD, I think thats what puts people off. If it changes to lets do this because this would bring A,B,C beneficial changes in society - and well the Quran/Sunnah say it as well - I think that would be fine.

And in most cases that I think it has to do with hudd punishments - witness testimony - womens rights - inheritance. Not stuff like economic policies, profit sharing is pretty popular I think, not the other stuff.

And for many things that you in your earlier post said that most sects would agree on. Lets take something other than homosexuality - fornication - rape - adultery - because they more or less seem consistent on those (except Hero Ghamdi of course). How about purdah? Is that something personal? In an Islamic State that all sects are okay with - would women be required/forced to observe pardah (hijab? abaya? shuttlecock burka?) I think some would say yes - some would say no.

And how about freedom of speech in an Islamic State that all sects agree on. In an IslState would there be a blasphemy law? I myself wouldn't say anything derogatory about the Prophet. But I would like others to have the right to say it.

For Pardah, First of all one have to understand why it is obligatory on male and female muslims to observe Pardah? by a simple cloth, which covers feminine part of female body, it saves her from lots of evils for sure... if you want to learn in detail then you have to google it...

Anyway, every society have its laws, Muslim society, orders women and men to observe Hijab, so that they society remains clean from the evil practices which may emerge if women and men walk naked or in clothes which is equivalent to it... Islam have nothing to do with Burqa or this kind of stuff, all it orders to wear decent cloths which hide the beauty of the body ( i am sorry if this is not as per French Fashion Shows) and is extremely against the notion that women or men wear or get involve in any act which is against decency in open.

The Blasphemy law has it roots deep down in human civilization and have been implemented in the society from the very human nature who idolizes his religious or national personalities. Basically such law are there to protect one simple thing, refrain people to abuse the religious sentiment of any religion whatsoever, as it may spark riots and many innocents would die just because some stupid person.... This law has nothing to do with Islam and has been in practice just to avoid something which can create unrest, if society is mature enough then they won't be burning Quran and neither they will be holding contest to draw some religious personalities of some other reason in the name of freedom of expression...