Secular Pakistan

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Mukobhai. Breadth of opinion is necessary for a society to function. Your views are always welcome.

But please - don't claim that you stand for Islam and fight for Islam.

If you had said you fight for your particular version of Islam - and fight for that version - that would have been perfectly acceptable. Please do not claim you speak for all of Islam/Muslims. While this is not explicit in your post(s), it is implicit.

I stand and fight for Islam and Islam alone I am not ashamed of my deen like some other people

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Islam is not a monolithic religion. So a country who wants to be Islamic only becomes a follower of some specific school. And then the problem starts. Because then they impose their school's views on others who do not follow their school. Example: Saudis, Iranians, Taliban, etc.

Solution is to keep the country secular and allow everyone to follow whatever they want. Example: Turkey. Even the Islamic oriented party of Erdogan denies that it wants to change the secular laws of the country.

Today Muslims have two models to follow. Turkey and Saudi. Saudi model is a failed model but people are afraid to follow Turkish model. They are afraid because they have misunderstanding that secular = atheist.

Islam is Islam their is no difference but some secular traitors want to portray it that way but they will fail

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Hanibal, the points you gave are not considered "Islamic" enough by most people. On the other hand, some don't consider interest unIslamic at all. And that's the problem. Everyone draws lines according to his own understanding.

Sir interest is unislamic I have never met a person which don't consider it unislamic its like you have declared war against ALLAH and his PROPHET SAW

[javedmiandad]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Look at history of Pakistan since so called independence anyone can see the argument for secularism is complete failure and if you still calling for more secularism for pakistan to save it you are blind to the reality of the situation around you..

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Look at history of Pakistan since so called independence anyone can see the argument for secularism is complete failure and if you still calling for more secularism for pakistan to save it you are blind to the reality of the situation around you..

Jaded plz do more posting

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

For Pardah, First of all one have to understand why it is obligatory on male and female muslims to observe Pardah? by a simple cloth, which covers feminine part of female body, it saves her from lots of evils for sure... if you want to learn in detail then you have to google it...

Anyway, every society have its laws, Muslim society, orders women and men to observe Hijab, so that they society remains clean from the evil practices which may emerge if women and men walk naked or in clothes which is equivalent to it... Islam have nothing to do with Burqa or this kind of stuff, all it orders to wear decent cloths which hide the beauty of the body ( i am sorry if this is not as per French Fashion Shows) and is extremely against the notion that women or men wear or get involve in any act which is against decency in open.

The Blasphemy law has it roots deep down in human civilization and have been implemented in the society from the very human nature who idolizes his religious or national personalities. Basically such law are there to protect one simple thing, refrain people to abuse the religious sentiment of any religion whatsoever, as it may spark riots and many innocents would die just because some stupid person.... This law has nothing to do with Islam and has been in practice just to avoid something which can create unrest, if society is mature enough then they won't be burning Quran and neither they will be holding contest to draw some religious personalities of some other reason in the name of freedom of expression...

^ My question hanibal was:

In an Islamic State - which you think all sects in Pakistan can agree to - what will be the law on Hijab/Satr. Will women be ASKED or REQUIRED to observe hijab/xyz, and will non compliance be a punishable offense?

I know the logic behind purdah - and blasphemy - and I'm not convinced.

My other question was:

For blasphemy - In an Islamic State - which you think all sects in Pakistan can agree to - will there be a blasphemy law? And what would the punishment for the blasphemer be?

Hero Ghamdi - says no to both viel/hijab and blasphemy law. So there already a portion of Pakistani society which does not think these laws should be part of an Islamic State. There is of course a much larger portion of Pakistani society which chooses to ignore viel/hijab and blasphemy - regardless of what the sect they're part of rules on the matter.

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@reduzijuice

^ My question hanibal was:

In an Islamic State - which you think all sects in Pakistan can agree to - what will be the law on Hijab/Satr. Will women be ASKED or REQUIRED to observe hijab/xyz, and will non compliance be a punishable offense?

I know the logic behind purdah - and blasphemy - and I'm not convinced.

My other question was:

For blasphemy - In an Islamic State - which you think all sects in Pakistan can agree to - will there be a blasphemy law? And what would the punishment for the blasphemer be?

Hero Ghamdi - says no to both viel/hijab and blasphemy law. So there already a portion of Pakistani society which does not think these laws should be part of an Islamic State. There is of course a much larger portion of Pakistani society which chooses to ignore viel/hijab and blasphemy - regardless of what the sect they're part of rules on the matter.

Sir for your kind information ALL SECTS agree to Death Sentence for the blashmer
and all sects agree that women have to cover all of her body except her face and hands and feet only Niqab is an issue but most who say
Niqab is not farz but even they say its preferred

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^

Ghamdi seesm to think that:

It is obvious from the Qur’ān that capital punishment can only be given in two cases: first, if a person murders another and, second, if he disrupts law and order in a country and, as such, becomes a threat to the life, property and honour of people.

So in the case that the blasphemer is disrupting society - then the extreme death penalty is possible. If you want to read more:

http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/articles_english_detail.php?rid=1157&cid=304

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@reduzijuice

^

Ghamdi seesm to think that:

It is obvious from the Qur’ān that capital punishment can only be given in two cases: first, if a person murders another and, second, if he disrupts law and order in a country and, as such, becomes a threat to the life, property and honour of people.

So in the case that the blasphemer is disrupting society - then the extreme death penalty is possible. If you want to read more:

http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/articles_english_detail.php?rid=1157&cid=304

Sir I have already told you about this cartoon Ghamdi all the major scholars agree on this issue and they are from all over the world don’t who quote this cartoon who is hiding in Malaysia

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

You might think he's a cartoon - but he does have followers in Pakistan.

So here is yet another example where ALL Muslims in Pakistan cannot agree with each other - and goes to prove the point that religion must not be adopted by the State.

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@reduzijuice

^ My question hanibal was:

In an Islamic State - which you think all sects in Pakistan can agree to - what will be the law on Hijab/Satr. Will women be ASKED or REQUIRED to observe hijab/xyz, and will non compliance be a punishable offense?

For this you need to see that what kind of pardah is being tolerated in the society... I have already mentioned what Islam says about the dressing and observing Pardah... most people in Pakistan observes it and the one who do not practice it, are not under threat by any mean, in last 60 years, there has no threat ( on national level) reported on this incident in Pakistani society... and if the Islamic System, Way of Life is implemented ( unlike France and other Developed Nations) they would not BAN the right of wearing dresses.. the whole thing would be the dress-code, which has been mentioned in Quran and is very clear... now if you want to go in circles.. then you are free to do that...

@reduzijuice

I know the logic behind purdah - and blasphemy - and I'm not convinced.

Convincing you or anyone is not my goal here... i am just putting here what little i know about Islam and its way of life which by many is 1400 old non-practical religion

My other question was:

@reduzijuice

For blasphemy - In an Islamic State - which you think all sects in Pakistan can agree to - will there be a blasphemy law? And what would the punishment for the blasphemer be?

there would be penalizing act for any attempt to disrupt the peace in the society... and normally it is there.. the sentence to such offend has to be measured as per the damage it has done... again these kind of laws are there to protect riots kind of stuff so that one community/religion/ethnicity does not start abusing others, spreading hatred and divisions...

The blasphemer, if proven guilty should be penalized accordingly

@reduzijuice

Hero Ghamdi - says no to both viel/hijab and blasphemy law. So there already a portion of Pakistani society which does not think these laws should be part of an Islamic State. There is of course a much larger portion of Pakistani society which chooses to ignore viel/hijab and blasphemy - regardless of what the sect they're part of rules on the matter.

I respect Ghamdi alot, as a matter of fact i respect almost all the Ulema ( apart from Fazalurrehman), he is right when he says about blasphemy law, religiously it does not exist, but it should be there to protect the ones who are in minority, e.g. the religious figures of Ahmadies should not be subject to abuse and laughter... they should be respected by law and the law of the land should enforce people to not to be a part of such activity...

and i agree with Ghamdi again, veil, Hijab is not part of Islamic law, only decent clothing and hiding feminine beauty is what is required which can be done by wearing apt cloths...

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Sir I have already told you about this cartoon Ghamdi all the major scholars agree on this issue and they are from all over the world don't who quote this cartoon who is hiding in Malaysia

Yar, what kind of person are you, Ghamdi is lot more learned then you and I, he have an opinion from which you can differ but calling names of Aalim who have the capability to shut any Non-Muslim criticizer of Islam is plain ignorance...

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

You might think he's a cartoon - but he does have followers in Pakistan.

So here is yet another example where ALL Muslims in Pakistan cannot agree with each other - and goes to prove the point that religion must not be adopted by the State.

Taking a reply from one person and generalizing it on all Pakistanies..

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^ Nah dude, I didn't generalize, I said Ghamdi has followers which are >0. These followers are Pakistani, hence it follows that ALL (i.e. every single Pakistani) does not agree with each other. My next inference was a little weak I admit because it does not PROVE that religion must not be adopted by the state, rather lends credence to that statement - because I'm sure all Pakistanis also don't want a secular state devoid of Islamic control.

Your answer to the previous post is appreciated - and your version of an Islamic State does seem benign compared to what others have argued for.

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@reduzijuice

^ Nah dude, I didn't generalize, I said Ghamdi has followers which are >0. These followers are Pakistani, hence it follows that ALL (i.e. every single Pakistani) does not agree with each other. My next inference was a little weak I admit because it does not PROVE that religion must not be adopted by the state, rather lends credence to that statement - because I'm sure all Pakistanis also don't want a secular state devoid of Islamic control.

Your answer to the previous post is appreciated -** and your version of an Islamic State does seem benign compared to what others have argued for**.

I am sure if other develop to study the religion and its science, they will develop something better then i have... and i look forward to that era, although lots are turning to the Science of Relgion ( meaning the purpose of Religion and its Books, here we mean Quran and Hadees) and there will be lot more in new generation who would not fell prey to ignorance...

[khoji]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@hanibal

Next time you decide to quote from some website, please do care to read it all..

Anyway, can you please explain why US and UK’s central bank brought the Interest rate to ZERO?

Point is that there are disagreements among Islamic scholars about it. That’s why I quoted that example from Sistani.
**Even what you call Islamic banking is not considered Islamic enough by others.
**
I don’t want to get into too much detail of it, but remember that bank interest of today did not exist in previous times. So all people can do is to interpret Quran and hadith. So to say that interest is forbidden in Quran, is a leap of faith.

http://www.islamicanswer.org/wordpress/?p=1496
the monetary systems of today differ sharply from the old days. Back then gold and silver were the only money.** Their value does not decrease with time.** In today’s economy (since 1971), money is fiat currency not backed by gold. With the massive debts of just about every country, paper money is almost worthless, and decreases in value with time. A lender who gets back his principal only is losing money!

http://archives.dawn.com/archives/67495

Due to lack of basic understanding of the nature and functions of interest, the religious scholars propagate its elimination, being completely unaware of the fact that as “price of capital” interest cannot be eliminated from the economic system.

Besides, minorities like Christians do not agree to Islamic banking at all.

[khoji]

Re: Secular Pakistan

It took Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) 23 years to implement it, so you can do the maths

It's laughable to bring him in the discussion.
For the starters, EVERYONE OBEYED him and agreed with him. His decisions were final. But this won't be the case today when everyone will be disagreeing and claiming it based on Islam.

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^^ you won't get it until it comes from Landan

[khoji]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^^ you won't get it until it comes from Landan

That's an unexpected response. I am hoping to get a serious discussion.
I am not an MQM spokesman nor do my views represent MQM people.
These views are my own. And they are shared by people from all parties who are weary of use of religion in Pakistan.

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@hanibal

I am sure if other develop to study the religion and its science, they will develop something better then i have... and i look forward to that era, although lots are turning to the Science of Relgion ( meaning the purpose of Religion and its Books, here we mean Quran and Hadees) and there will be lot more in new generation who would not fell prey to ignorance...

So then would you say that the people of the country are not in a position to decide what kind of an Islamic State they want? And hence the idea of establishing one should be abandoned, and we should come back to it another 50 years from now - like Turkey?