I’ve been posting a bit in the religious forum. And it seems to me that many people want an Islamic State in Pakistan. The problem it seems is that we have too little religion.
Pakistan as an Islamic state would - in my opinion - be a huge blunder. The basic reason for this is that there is no such thing as a Muslim in Pakistan. We have 8? different types of Sunnis, a couple of different types of Shias, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Bahai, Quranists, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, etc. And of course we have the TTP - whose version of an Islamic state is absolutely horrifying.
Our people have repeatedly been fooled by politicians who have used Islam for political gains at the expense of our society.
Given these divisions in our society - I don’t see what kind of an Islamic State we can achieve which would not be unfair to others living in our country.
As a secular democracy - individuals in Pakistan would be free to follow any religion they chose - or none at all. The big changes would be:
We’d take out the Islamic from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Our penal code would not be based on Shariah.
So we do away with the Hadoor Ordinance
Apostasy would not be a crime
Alcohol would not be a crime
Drugs - may or may not be a crime depending on how enlightened the government is
Homosexuality would be decriminalized
Adultery would be decriminalized
Statements against someones religion e.g. Islam, or the Prophet would not be punishable by death.
People would be free to have their conflicts resolved by a Moulvi to which both of them agree - e.g. if a man chooses to be subject to Hanafi jurispudence - in matters that are personal to him like inheritance etc - those laws would apply. If the same man has committed adultery - and the woman does not choose the Hanafi juror - then the sentence of death/lashes would only be applicable on him.
I have not fully fleshed this out - but I’d love to hear your opinions on whether you think Pakistan should be an Islamic State or not.
While you are at it why you left prostitution criminalized ?
Pakistan being secular does not mean that social evils should be decriminalized .
There are many points on which all the Muslim sects agree and then there are some Islamic code of conduct on which even non Muslims will agree.
Yes Pakistan can be a Islamic but secular state , in which minorities have rights and each Muslim sect is free to follow Islam according to their beliefs .
I dont think its gona help things. It will only fuel the fanatics, best thing to do, though I regret it must come to this is let things come to thier bloody boiling point and then and only then will people see sense. Ussually it takes a crisis to make or brake something... Pakistan is in crisis the worst thing to do is do nothing but sometimes it is the best thing as well. Hold your breadth, fasten your seatbelts and stay the course.
Forget secular or religous state, concentrate on staying alive. I'm with Mirch on this one.
Your conception of social evils comes from the religion/sect you ascribe to.
Social evils as you call them are present - making them legal will make it easier to regulate them.
And yes prostitution should also be legal.
Prostitution is allegedly one of the oldest professions in the world.
Prostitution being legal would have the benefit that prostitutes would not be as easily exploited as they are now. STD screening can be carried out so that both the prostitutes and their patrons are safer. Lesser stigma etc. For more on the prostitution should be legal debate - see:
In a secular Pakistan - an act would be criminal not because people view it as immoral - but because it harms another citizen of the state.
You say Pakistan can be an Islamic but secular state - I guess this could be achieved if people are free to convert out of Islam and hence not be subject to the punishments of Shariah. I guess this would be an acceptable compromise.
I dont think its gona help things. It will only fuel the fanatics, best thing to do, though I regret it must come to this is let things come to thier bloody boiling point and then and only then will people see sense. Ussually it takes a crisis to make or brake something... Pakistan is in crisis the worst thing to do is do nothing but sometimes it is the best thing as well. Hold your breadth, fasten your seatbelts and stay the course.
Forget secular or religous state, concentrate on staying alive. I'm with Mirch on this one.
The fanatics which to impose their concept of an Islamic state on the rest of society - whether they want it or not. And your solution is "stay the course"?
Lets say the TTP wins and is able to take control of the country - would you be okay with their version of an Islamic state?
I dont know what to say to that… Except perhaps secularism has a long road to go and zealot secularists wont help matters, they simply inflame the extremists. One should learn to crawl before walking.
No realistically that is not going to happen and you know it.
If you try and fight fire with fire you will get burned. If you have a problem with one set of extremists you dont go and roll out ideas of the opposite spectrum becuase your only increasing the battle front.
By staying the course you let the extremists burn up thier anger and make all the stupid moves... lots of innocent lives are lost but if thats what it takes to unite people in a common cause then so be it... it is how many conflicts have been resolved. Look up the IRA, ETA, Tamil Tigers and Red Brigades, they all went too far and broke.
If you think the answer to Islamist fundamentalists is to start banging the secular drum you will only be thier recruiting sergeant and ultimately fail... many more will die if you prolong the conflict with double trouble.
If you want to beat extremism you have to let the extremist burn up thier own support, if you play thier game your gonna lose. Think about it.
A Maulvi shows up at your door - and says do you support Shariah in Pakistan? You can say yes or no. What would you say?
If you say yes - you're supporting them - not staying the course
If you say no - you're against them - and increasing the battle front as you say.
I think people are dying because we have not had this discussion as a country before. We have always blindly said yes to Islam in public life. And the result is TTP & co.
It's not like Shariah law is evil? Seems you have been reading into too much Propaganda. Seriously Shariah law is not a joke, it can be applied only after carefull considerations it is not the brutal tribal law of the FATA. You know the same Shariah law Western proapaganda hates so much was the same basis for Welfare states and many 1st World Judicial systems.
Also consensus (ijtimah) is a big factor Islam was origanally a model for democracy and freedom, if applied correctly and with sense theres no danger with Shariah.
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A Maulvi shows up at your door - and says do you support Shariah in Pakistan? You can say yes or no. What would you say?
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I'd shut the door...
No seriously I'd offer him a cup of tea and tell him that if applied properly then Shariah law is fine. If abused then even the best Judicial system will become a farce.
Pakistan is a majority Muslim country if the people want Shariah and they come to a consensus on major decisions then what on earth is the problem. Shariah law as I said has a consensus clause. Nobody can force anyone unless your a danger to society... now what is the problem?
Dont like the name Shariah? Call it whatever you like? You know even in Britian and America they still make you swear oaths on the bible, you can chose to swear oath on any other holy book or whatever or opt out if you like. Now if Western countries are not 100% Secular then why do people jump at Muslim throats and demand we give up our creeds?
As Mirch said theres ways of striking a balance. But it seems you like the Extremists have a one track mind... loose the mind and come to your senses.
It is not applied on Non Muslims - no death penalty for saying things against Islam & the Prophet
People have the option of leaving Islam so that they are not subject to Shariah - rather more secular laws.
If I want to have sex with a woman or man - I should have the option of saying I do not want to be judged by Shariah law.
Shariah Law is fine - until it starts to regulate moral crimes - like adultery - anti Islam speech etc. That is when it impugns on the rights of other citizens.
Secularism an unfinished dream and vision of Quaid e Azam. You guys do remember that back in the 60s and early 70s we were liberal and secular. What happened now then? We were making huge progress under our liberal and secular leaders. There was so much tolerance and all the faiths lived together in harmony. That is until Zia came along and screwed up everything.
We saw the greatness of Shariah Law in Swat and how the locals were coming on TV and praising it right?
In my humble opinion Secularism ,democracy, gender equality and economical equity are very essential for any country's prosperity and decent future.
secularism and democracy are natural state of political governance and it will be the future of the world.
they come with their flaws but still it is better than anything else we have.
With the current set of "Muslim" scholars, their parties, their "armed" gangs I will go for the option of "secularism". All of us, including those so called "scholars", 'molvis', need to first learn Islam and actually act on it rather than just learning it and having a long beard to show the "certificate" but do whatever we desire. We first need to have a stable society where people respect everyone as an individual/human being first.
Secularism an unfinished dream and vision of Quaid e Azam. You guys do remember that back in the 60s and early 70s we were liberal and secular. What happened now then? We were making huge progress under our liberal and secular leaders. There was so much tolerance and all the faiths lived together in harmony. That is until Zia came along and screwed up everything.
We saw the greatness of Shariah Law in Swat and how the locals were coming on TV and praising it right?
I've been posting a bit in the religious forum. And it seems to me that many people want an Islamic State in Pakistan. The problem it seems is that we have too little religion.
Pakistan as an Islamic state would - in my opinion - be a huge blunder. The basic reason for this is that there is no such thing as a Muslim in Pakistan. We have 8? different types of Sunnis, a couple of different types of Shias, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Bahai, Quranists, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, etc. And of course we have the TTP - whose version of an Islamic state is absolutely horrifying.
Our people have repeatedly been fooled by politicians who have used Islam for political gains at the expense of our society.
Given these divisions in our society - I don't see what kind of an Islamic State we can achieve which would not be unfair to others living in our country.
As a secular democracy - individuals in Pakistan would be free to follow any religion they chose - or none at all. The big changes would be:
We'd take out the Islamic from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Our penal code would not be based on Shariah.
So we do away with the Hadoor Ordinance
Apostasy would not be a crime
Alcohol would not be a crime
Drugs - may or may not be a crime depending on how enlightened the government is
Homosexuality would be decriminalized
Adultery would be decriminalized
Statements against someones religion e.g. Islam, or the Prophet would not be punishable by death.
People would be free to have their conflicts resolved by a Moulvi to which both of them agree - e.g. if a man chooses to be subject to Hanafi jurispudence - in matters that are personal to him like inheritance etc - those laws would apply. If the same man has committed adultery - and the woman does not choose the Hanafi juror - then the sentence of death/lashes would only be applicable on him.
I have not fully fleshed this out - but I'd love to hear your opinions on whether you think Pakistan should be an Islamic State or not.
Secularism is Kufr and it will fail it has failed every where Islam has its own political social and economic system and any one who will go against it will face a sever backlash so promote Islam not kufr
Secularism an unfinished dream and vision of Quaid e Azam. You guys do remember that back in the 60s and early 70s we were liberal and secular. What happened now then? We were making huge progress under our liberal and secular leaders. There was so much tolerance and all the faiths lived together in harmony. That is until Zia came along and screwed up everything.
We saw the greatness of Shariah Law in Swat and how the locals were coming on TV and praising it right?
Sorry Sir Jinnah never said he wanted a secular Pakistan nor did Iqbal they both worked for Pakistan to establish a country based on Islamic Principals and that is why he also finished contacts with his daughter when she married a parsi
