Re: Secular Pakistan
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Islam is the best system there is no question, but the current set of Muslims are worst implementers of this system.
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Thats my thoughts exactly. :)
Re: Secular Pakistan
The people in Swat - many of whom were clothed - well fed - and had assets - heard the Taliban on the Mullah Radio preaching Islam and initially invited the Taliban and supported them - women gave their jewelry - asked their sons to join the Taliban etc.
If you’re arguing that the entirety of Taliban/fundo supporters are bred out of poverty, in-education and despair, then your strategy of tackling the problem might work. However the Swat example does not bear this out. These were people who listened to Mullah Radio and agreed with it. WHY? Because there wasn’t an alternative to Mullah Radio.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t work for poverty alleviation, education, shelter. All I’m saying is that in addition we need to preach a brand of Islam which does not hand out death penalties for every other crime, which does not prescribe hadd punishments as the only punishments. It is the Islam that I know. Perhaps it is the Islam you know as well.
I know a couple of friends who are working in Swat - and the stories they tell are horrendous. People supporting the Taliban and then living in fear under them. They would take the names of families who would send their daughters to school and warn them of dire consequences.
[http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/06/woman-from-swat-recounts-ordeal-under-taliban.html
E](http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/06/woman-from-swat-recounts-ordeal-under-taliban.html)ven on this forum, you have people who use the internet - so I’m assuming they’re sheltered - educated and fed. And they support a very strict implementation of Sharaih in Pakistan.
Poverty is part of the problem for sure but not the only part.
I think part of the discussion should also be - who do you consider an extremist/fundo. I hate using words like these because they seem very western words to describe our situation. So I’d like to refine my understanding of extremist/fundo. So lets see if we can agree on some basics - I’m not sure - and would love your input:
The Taliban want their version of Shariah implemented in all of Pakistan. True/False, other
An extremist is a person who wants all hadd punishments to be implemented in Pakistan - fornication, adultery, homosexuality, apostasy, blasphemy, interest. True/False, other
A fundamentalist is the same as an extremist, except that an extremist would espouse violence as a means of achieving their goals. True/False, other
A moderate fundamentalist - is someone who does not ascribe hadd punishments for most sins/crimes. e.g. Ghamdi True/False, other
A moderate - someone who would be willing to overlook some parts of Islam in favor of “modernity” in this context which would mean more “freedom” for women and almost complete lack of support for hadd punishments. True/False, other
A liberal/secular extremist person would be someone who wants a complete divorce of state and Islam. True/False, other
I think most people in Pakistan would fall in the moderate fundamentalist / moderate category. I was talking to my mother today and she wasn’t okay with death penalties for various crimes that we are told usually do carry the death penalty in Islam. Of course her, and the 300 odd people I know on facebook are not a representative sample of Pakistan, but I’d like to think that there are many more people like these in the country who have an attitude of live and let live. Who even in the face of traditional interpretation of the Quran & Sunnah are able to say no to hadd punishments.
The comment that the Musharraf silent majority may or may not exist as a majority, but they certainly are silent - is correct. I think there is a silent moderate majority - the aim should be to make an alternative narrative that still lets people call themselves Muslim and also lets them say no to fundamentalism. Because the dominant narrative right now is Quran + Sunnah - our interpretation = TRUE MUSLIM everyone else does not know - is not qualified to know. Making this alternative narrative would ensure that people are not further radicalized. Along with this a culture of discussion - and protest needs to be encouraged by strengthening civil society. I’ve only been to a few protests - but if I was in Lahore when Taseer was killed I would have gone to the small gathering outside the governors house. These were not people who had been brought together by political parties (which allegedly the Qazi supporters were) these were people who I think are the silent majority.
Thank you for the comments though - the discussion is enlightening. I might not have completely understood what you’re proposing - if you think I have not - please do elaborate more. I know your time is valuable and appreciate your input.
Re: Secular Pakistan
Islam is the best system there is no question, but the current set of Muslims are worst implementers of this system.
My dear Captain 1 -
Islam was the best system - at the time of the Prophet - maybe the 4 caliphs as well.
Theoretically you could argue that it is still the best system.
However the latter part of your comment is key - the current set of Muslims are the worst implementers of this system.
So the question then becomes - do you want a theoretically perfect system to be established by the worst Muslims - the outcome seems like it would slowly gravitate to Swat Taliban type rule.
Or do you want to give secularism - or if that is too extreme for you - moderation a chance - so that people can take a couple of decades to improve their Muslim hood and then decide if they want an Islamic State.
It is my personal opinion that even then an Islamic State - would be in feasible given the number of sects of Islam.
Re: Secular Pakistan
The Taliban want their version of Shariah implemented in all of Pakistan. True/False, other
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Thats partly true, however not exactly correct. You see the Original Taliban and the TTP are seperate groups and the Taliban itself is not one united faction anymore, yes the TTP are the extreme end but there are a lot of Taliban in Afghanistan that dont exactly fight for those reasons… so it’s a mix up of mega proportions. Southern Taliban for example are a totally different force when compared to the TTP.
That again is partly true.
Yes but then if we go back to the previous question the one who supports judicial execution is also a fundo not an extremist by this definition right? So confussing 
Moderate fundamentalist? Okaaay sounds like a person who will kill you with a rocket launcher instead of a sword. 
Naah seriously I know what you mean so again partly true… but this subject is very murky.
Yes I suppose thats fair to say, but you can still be a moderate and support the death penalty for Murder for example? Surely a lot of Western States that have Moderate citizens still implement death penalties to hienous criminals… anywaaay…
Again I would say true.
Thankyou yes your right this is turning out to be quite a discussion and so long as we keep it this way it will be great… Theres seriously good input comming into this thread so lets keep it up.
Re: Secular Pakistan
The sects have come together effectively before though... so why not again?
I think Islamic state has just as much chance of implementation as any other state. However perhaps State and public/private Religion were kept as seperate pieces perhaps that might help.
Re: Secular Pakistan
Islam is the best system there is no question, but the current set of Muslims are worst implementers of this system.
Agreed. Except I would add that no set implementers would ever be acceptable to all. There are just far to many variances in interpretation and application of Islamic laws, for anyone to be considered an acceptable implementer.
In the process of finding the right implementers, you will be causing the very disharmony and acrimoniousness you are trying to prevent. Trying to create a suitable Islamic system is bound to create more problems then it resolves.
Better for a govt to be pragmatic, focus on what is important and leave religious debates to the Ulema.
Re: Secular Pakistan
The sects have come together effectively before though... so why not again?
I think Islamic state has just as much chance of implementation as any other state. However perhaps State and public/private Religion were kept as seperate pieces perhaps that might help.
You are right let us keep the two seperate. Perhaps in an ideal world, such a system, which is purely Islamic may exist but we do not live in such a world. People will begin fighting among themselves, there will be those forcing others to obey their interpretation, there will be people being denied their rights because they dont believe in exactly what you believe or someone else believes. Its a slippery slope.
As I have argued before, as far as im concerned an Islamic system is one that espouses harmony, justice, and human dignity. Such a system can exist regardless of whther we call ourselves Islamic or not. There is little arguing that Western secular nations are actually far closer to the ideals of Islam that I mentioned then many countries that call themselves Muslim.
I recall what a famous Egyption scholor of Islam, whose name I forget, once said of his experience in Europe upon his return to Egypt. He said "In Europe, I saw Islam, but very few Muslims. Here, I have seen very many Muslims, and very little Islam."
That pretty much sums up what I feel about the "Islamic Republic" of Pakistan.
Re: Secular Pakistan
I already gave myanswerin case you missed.
Re: Secular Pakistan
Secularism is contradictory to Islam it is a man made system and it is bound to fail Islam has its own economic Political and social system which has to be and will be implemented because it is the system of GOD whoever will resist it will be defeated
Re: Secular Pakistan
Shariah Law is fine - until it starts to regulate moral crimes - like adultery - anti Islam speech etc. That is when it impugns on the rights of other citizens.
You're mixing paradigms. One could argue that Islam is used to define rights, and so cannot possibly be used to infringe on anyone's right...so to speak.
The real question is, why should an islamic society secularize?
Re: Secular Pakistan
Secularism is contradictory to Islam it is a man made system and it is bound to fail Islam has its own economic Political and social system which has to be and will be implemented because it is the system of GOD whoever will resist it will be defeated
you should be charged for blasphemy. do you mean man can make better system than god? and do you also mean that god can make a system but is not powerful enough to implement it?
astaghfirullah, go do tauba right away.
Re: Secular Pakistan
you should be charged for blasphemy. do you mean man can make better system than god? and do you also mean that god can make a system but is not powerful enough to implement it? astaghfirullah, go do tauba right away.
GOD has made the rules for man to implement it on earth if the man will not do it ALLAH will sent him to hell that is the test in life if you have not studied Islam than keep quiet
Re: Secular Pakistan
GOD has made the rules for man to implement it on earth if the man will not do it ALLAH will sent him to hell that is the test in life if you have not studied Islam than keep quiet
He got you. Now Im going to have to report this to the police. They will get your ip address and charge you with blasphemy law. Your going on death row buddy.
Re: Secular Pakistan
He got you. Now Im going to have to report this to the police. They will get your ip address and charge you with blasphemy law. Your going on death row buddy.
do it but at the we the Islamists will win and secular cartoons will loose and run away like cowards
Re: Secular Pakistan
mukobhai please take a chill pill dude.
I like your strong beliefs but seriously bhai I've been there done it and got the T-Shirt. Extremism is just as likely to fail as secularism. My suggestion to you is to try Sufism it will help you a lot and also give you a better understanding... Learn to respect others. That goes for everyone.
Kaka_in_USA Your a bloody genius. Have you considered a career as my political spin doctor?
Re: Secular Pakistan
mukobhai please take a chill pill dude.
I like your strong beliefs but seriously bhai I've been there done it and got the T-Shirt. Extremism is just as likely to fail as secularism. My suggestion to you is to try Sufism it will help you a lot and also give you a better understanding... Learn to respect others. That goes for everyone.
Kaka_in_USA Your a bloody genius. Have you considered a career as my political spin doctor?
Sir Faris u Deen sir do you know how I came to Islam when I was 13 years old I went to a mazar that changed my Life Sir their are some wrong misconceptions about Sufis which need to be corrected even many of them are given life by ALLAH again sir these secular guys will also call them extremists
Re: Secular Pakistan
do it but at the we the Islamists will win and secular cartoons will loose and run away like cowards
Win how by bombing yourselves and killing secularists in the process. Is this what your so called religion of peace Islam tells you to do? Kill innocent people like Salman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti?
Open up your eyes Democracy and Secularism is the way to go. Shining example is Turkey, a muslim majority country that built it self up in a democratic and secular way.
Re: Secular Pakistan
Win how by bombing yourselves and killing secularists in the process. Is this what your so called religion of peace Islam tells you to do? Kill innocent people like Salman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti? Open up your eyes Democracy and Secularism is the way to go. Shining example is Turkey, a muslim majority country that built it self up in a democratic and secular way.
Turkey will very soon be an Islamic Republic Secularism and Democracy are the failed systems and they will fail Islam is the only way forward all the other ways are darkness and Salman Taseer was supporting a blashmer
Re: Secular Pakistan
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Open up your eyes Democracy and Secularism is the way to go. Shining example is Turkey, a muslim majority country that built it self up in a democratic and secular way.
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Sorry to burst the bubble but Turkey is drifting towards Islamism again, in the last polls on the matter the Turkish public were split East to West of the Bosphorus with the East side holding the majority and wanting to return the law to conservative Islamist leanings... I have close ties with many friends in Turkey and the country is in a political mess with people aligning themselves more to the conservatives and calling for Islamism and closer ties to Iran. Turkey is losing the secularist stand and I think it might well be a new Islamic system in place instead with not a totalitarian Islamic republic but a republic with Islamic ideals in place instead of outright secularism. :)
Re: Secular Pakistan
Please dont call me Sir bhai is enough, I was never knighted and even if the oppurtunity came I would do a Benny.
Anyway good for you brother nice to see Islam came to you at an Early age, now please calm down and think things through more carefully. No need to go Jihad on every little thing, take things more lightly brother. I’ll PM you later.