Secular Pakistan

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Mukobhai - in the other thread with reference to my question about how the Islamic State would come about - through a democratic process or through an armed struggle you mentioned that:

It can come through Revolution too

What I'm trying to understand mukobhai - is whether you support the notion that the ideas of a minority should be imposed on the majority?

The revolution to bring about an Islamic State - is this a popular revolution which means at least more than 50% of adults over 18 years of age support the revolution in making an Islamic State in Pakistan?

On a side note - mukobhai - do you support the Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan?

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

I don't support Threek e Taliban but I stand for and support Shariat Shariat allows many things and dis allows many things and it is the law of ALLAH the creator of human beings so it is the best law for human beings but some people are afraid of it because it will end their brutality and will not allow them to follow their pathetic livestyles

[yazdi]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^^^

But TTP also claims they exactly know what Allah wants.. why should we trust you, why shouldn't we trust them. Both of you are more or less preaching the same hate/intolerant mentality..

My shariat understanding can be secular based on social justice.. I think that's what Allah wants.. how will we determine the will of Allah.. and who is right..???

[mukobhai]

Re: Secular Pakistan

^^^

But TTP also claims they exactly know what Allah wants.. why should we trust you, why shouldn't we trust them. Both of you are more or less preaching the same hate/intolerant mentality..

My shariat understanding can be secular based on social justice.. I think that's what Allah wants.. how will we determine the will of Allah.. and who is right..???

The will of ALLAH is very much clear in the QURAN sir don't quote funny statement here that my understanding is based on secular so called shariat it is the most funny statement I have ever heard Sir only those people who have deny the truth of ISLAM for whom ALLAH has written they have become dumb deaf and blind and enemies of ISLAM will be hated and sir Islam will be established because it is the will of ALLAH

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Muko bahi -

Main aap say pooch raha hooo kay yeh Islami Nizam - Shariat kiss tarah aaana chahiyay? Jamhooriyat kay ziryay? Jaddojehd kay ziryay? Ya inquilaab kay ziryay?

Kiya agar iss mulk kay 50% say ziyada log Islami Nizam nahin chahtay - tou kiya phir bhee Islami Nizam aana chahiyay? Agar haan - tou kaisay?

Mukobhai

I'd like you to answer the previous questions I asked. The answer you gave does not make sense.

Should the Islamic State come through:

A democratic movement - i.e. religious parties gaining majority in parliament and implementing Shariah

An armed struggle - like the TTP

A revolution - (please do explain if this would be a popular revolution or not)

If more than 50% of the people of this country do not want an Islamic State - should the people who do want an Islamic State impose their will on the majority? If yes then how?

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

The will of ALLAH is very much clear in the QURAN sir don't quote funny statement here that my understanding is based on secular so called shariat it is the most funny statement I have ever heard Sir only those people who have deny the truth of ISLAM for whom ALLAH has written they have become dumb deaf and blind and enemies of ISLAM will be hated and sir Islam will be established because it is the willALLAH

True,will/commandment/way of life for muslims are mentioned in Quran and are as follows:

1) The Muslim are those who walk on earth with humble and carries high moral values

2) They do not kill, and when they go to war, they still not kill the people who are nor directly in war with them

3) They keep their promises and they believe in forgiveness

4) They are Kind in nature

5) They are Just

6) They do not spread Fitna on earth in the name of religion

Now you tell me how many of these are believed and practiced by your TTP

[hanibal]

Re: Secular Pakistan

If more than 50% of the people of this country do not want an Islamic State - should the people who do want an Islamic State impose their will on the majority? If yes then how?

what if 49% of people in Pakistan want secularism??? and remainders are up for Islamic State??? would the minority will be imposing its decision on majority?

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

If 51% of parliament has the ability to pass laws - then yes then can pass laws which are Shariah based.

However if in the next election - some other party or parties over turns those laws - that should be totally okay.

The people of Pakistan though - don't want anything to do with Islamic parties like the JI - MMA types - in none of the elections have they gained enough seats to even begin to imagine implementing their preferred laws. The only way they have been able to implement Islamic based laws is by threat of force - demonstrations by their party members etc.

[Faris_Udeen]

Re: Secular Pakistan

[QUOTE]
If 51% of parliament has the ability to pass laws - then yes then can pass laws which are Shariah based.

However if in the next election - some other party or parties over turns those laws - that should be totally okay.

[/QUOTE]

Okay thats fine by me and I'm sure most people would agree thats how Democracy works. :)

Now about those questions you asked Mukho bhai can I answer them as well? I am not, as you can tell a Maulvi type. However I am a proud Muslim but also a Musilm who understands that Islam has to move with the times and adapt to it's surroundings and that Islam is not as rigid as you mgiht think. It is a reasonable and flexible faith that allows for diversity and equality, like the finest steel my faith is both flexible but also extremely strong.

The way I see it Pakistan is a Muslim majority country and whatever that majority want or deserve they should get.

However before we even begin to adress what state the country is to be in the near future I believe we need to worry about defending the best of our beliefs and culture... while working on the not so positive aspects. First and foremost a massive change must take place. Be it instant or gradual... people need shelter, education and welfare... before they even have a chance of forging a nation.

Right now Pakistan is in no positionto hold a debate on Religous dogma, neither is it right to plunge the nation into a state of anarchy by challenging the sizeable conservative elements who will only be driven towards the extremists.

I like to think I am the middle view, we have to retain much of our cultural and religous identity, it's too precious to throw away... lose your identity you lose everything... But nor am I in favour of Facism where we use our identity as a means of believing ourselves superior to others or as a given right to opress others.

For change to take place though I think it has to be from the top down...

[Captain1]

Re: Secular Pakistan

The answer is we have the best system the system of Islam the system given by ALLAH we don't any other system

Islam is the best system there is no question, but the current set of Muslims are worst implementers of this system.

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@reduzijuice

Hi,

I've been posting a bit in the religious forum. And it seems to me that many people want an Islamic State in Pakistan. The problem it seems is that we have too little religion.

Pakistan as an Islamic state would - in my opinion - be a huge blunder. The basic reason for this is that there is no such thing as a Muslim in Pakistan. We have 8? different types of Sunnis, a couple of different types of Shias, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Bahai, Quranists, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, etc. And of course we have the TTP - whose version of an Islamic state is absolutely horrifying.

Our people have repeatedly been fooled by politicians who have used Islam for political gains at the expense of our society.

Given these divisions in our society - I don't see what kind of an Islamic State we can achieve which would not be unfair to others living in our country.

As a secular democracy - individuals in Pakistan would be free to follow any religion they chose - or none at all. The big changes would be:

• We'd take out the Islamic from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

• Our penal code would not be based on Shariah.

  • So we do away with the Hadoor Ordinance
  • Apostasy would not be a crime
  • Alcohol would not be a crime
  • Drugs - may or may not be a crime depending on how enlightened the government is
  • Homosexuality would be decriminalized
  • Adultery would be decriminalized
  • Statements against someones religion e.g. Islam, or the Prophet would not be punishable by death.

People would be free to have their conflicts resolved by a Moulvi to which both of them agree - e.g. if a man chooses to be subject to Hanafi jurispudence - in matters that are personal to him like inheritance etc - those laws would apply. If the same man has committed adultery - and the woman does not choose the Hanafi juror - then the sentence of death/lashes would only be applicable on him.

I have not fully fleshed this out - but I'd love to hear your opinions on whether you think Pakistan should be an Islamic State or not.

I agree with everything you said. But to the naive and foolish, everything you just said is apostasy, and worthy of death under the blasphemy law.

There is really no reasoning with such people. Its going to take decades of deprogramming through education, economic and social uplift before Pakistanis shed this hyper-religious persona they have constructed.

The state of Muslims in Pakistan is appalling. When even other Muslim countries have to think twice before allowing a Pakistani into their country, you know there is something wrong.

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

The will of ALLAH is very much clear in the QURAN sir don't quote funny statement here that my understanding is based on secular so called shariat it is the most funny statement I have ever heard Sir only those people who have deny the truth of ISLAM for whom ALLAH has written they have become dumb deaf and blind and enemies of ISLAM will be hated and sir Islam will be established because it is the will of ALLAH

^Case in Point.

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

@ Faris

You are correct in saying that there are other pressing issues that need resolving e.g. basic necessities for the majority of the people - who are too poor to generally care about their religion.

However you want to post pone conflict with the religious fundos because doing so would be detrimental in the short term.

I think the mess we are in right now is exactly because we have postponed this conflict with the fundos for so long.

In Swat - people invited the Taliban into their area - because the Taliban were able to convince them of their flawed narrative. In the absence of a counter narrative - the rise of religious intolerance will continue. If this time we had a thousand people throwing flowers on Qazi - the guy who killed Salman Taseer - next time we will have tens of thousands.

The moderates in the country need to make their voices heard.

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

I agree with everything you said. But to the naive and foolish, everything you just said is apostasy, and worthy of death under the blasphemy law.

There is really no reasoning with such people. Its going to take decades of deprogramming through education, economic and social uplift before Pakistanis shed this hyper-religious persona they have constructed.

The state of Muslims in Pakistan is appalling. When even other Muslim countries have to think twice before allowing a Pakistani into their country, you know there is something wrong.

Its good to know there are people like you out there as well. But you're not resident in Pakistan right?

Sometimes the intolerance; of not even listening to other peoples views - let alone even considering whether most Pakistani's agree with their views - is so overwhelming that I want to pack up my bags and get the hell out of here. Haha and I guess some would cheer me on and say good riddance.

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Its good to know there are people like you out there as well. But you're not resident in Pakistan right?

Sometimes the intolerance; of not even listening to other peoples views - let alone even considering whether most Pakistani's agree with their views - is so overwhelming that I want to pack up my bags and get the hell out of here. Haha and I guess some would cheer me on and say good riddance.

No, No. I certainly admire your effort. But you really are up against a brick wall of intolerance. I hate to sound pessimistic, but Pakistanis are not ready to listen. They have constructed this barrier for themselves, and anyone trying to break it down is either going to be hounded out of the country like Ghamdi, or shot in the back like Taseer or Bhatti.

At this point, your voice is as effective as mine because whether your in Pak or outside, it makes no difference. Actually I think being out of Pakistan is more effective in a number of ways. Again, look at Taseer. Better a voice outside of Pak, then no voice within it.

[reduzijuice]

Re: Secular Pakistan

I can understand the desire to leave the country because of how inhospitable to diversity of opinion it has become.

However - only a certain class of people can do that. You, me, a couple of thousand more. Contributing to brain drain.

I would like to think that our ideals are shared across class lines - and by leaving - we are abandoning those that we should express solidarity with.

[Med911]

Re: Secular Pakistan

I can understand the desire to leave the country because of how inhospitable to diversity of opinion it has become.

However - only a certain class of people can do that. You, me, a couple of thousand more. Contributing to brain drain.

I would like to think that our ideals are shared across class lines - and by leaving - we are abandoning those that we should express solidarity with.

Cheers to that. I can understand that whole heartadly.

But where were those with who we should express solidarity when they were throwing garlands at the feet of the guy that killed Taseer? Lets face it, expressing an opinion such as yours in public in Pak, with as much force as you do here, will not win you any friends, and those that would support you would be hounded to death by the bigots.

Musharraf silent majority, may or may not exist as a majority, but they certainly are silent.

[Faris_Udeen]

Re: Secular Pakistan

[QUOTE]
However you want to post pone conflict with the religious fundos because doing so would be detrimental in the short term.

[/QUOTE]

Not quite postpone the conflict my friend, rather a altogether change of tactics.

You dont need to go to the level of "fundos" as you call them, if you try to tackle things the logical and head on way you only got a 50/50 chance of success and the risk of failure is too high, suppose we try and battle the fundos and lose? Okay thats far fetched in millitary terms we could wipe them out no problem, but even killing the man does not kill the ideal he fights for.

The alternative which I suggest is what Americans and others will have to turn to as well. Until you adress the other issues such as food, education, shelter etc you are not going to win.

Besides fundamentalists just like liberalls are people too. If you clean up a town and keep it clean and tidy there is much less chance of heavy criminal activity... if the town is a dump then it will always suffer from crime.

Look at it from the balance point, we need to apply pressure on millitants by draining them of the human pool they use as thier water hole. Do that your dreams are a reality... try and go toe to toe your dreams will become nightmares.

[Faris_Udeen]

Re: Secular Pakistan

Musharraf silent majority, may or may not exist as a majority, but they certainly are silent.

Aye that be true.

[rangoli]

Re: Secular Pakistan

well said 1947 and Captain!