Sects of Islam

Re: Sects of Islam

Dear brother Ibn Sadique, first of all thank u for going thru the trouble of pasting the concerned part from the thread referred to earlier.......now we have at least got some substance to talk abt.......u have raised some interesting points regarding a particular letter of Amirul Momineen to the king of Syria where he has talked abt the earlier sheikhdoms........I think u r trying to indicate tht this letter implies approval of Imam Ali with the coup of saqeefa......well, I would request u to open the book where u have got their letter from and quote the complete set of letters that was exchanged before this letter.....this pre-Siffein exchange of letters were carried by messengers Abu Ammama Bahili and Jarir b Abdullah just for ur reference in helping locate these letters.........once u find and present them then we may go over each point that u r having difficulty understanding in this particular letter of Imam Ali, Insha Allah..........once u gain a holistic view then u wont have much trouble seeing the childish game of deceit that Muawiya was trying to play with Imam Ali.......once that starts becoming apparent, Insha Allah, I hope u won't turn back and start calling the letters "imaginary" again?!.....

Re: Sects of Islam

Yes, Fadak issue......the one where the prosecutors and the judges were the same.........where both Quran and the Ahlay Bayt, the ONLY 2 sources of guidance left behind by the Prophet saww, were deliberately ignored.........and where the one who had personally received the gift of fadak from Prophet saww, i.e. Fatima Zahra, knew not but somehow the new king knew....oh well....

as for ur 2nd question, do u know who the fadak belonged during the time of Imam Ali's caliphate?......it had been gifted by your 3rd king to his son in law the accursed Marwan bin Hakam and his family...........ur next question might b that why Imam Ali did not use his worldly political power like others to snatch it from Marwan, right?......in that case u may read this;

Al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Fadhal narrated from Abul-Hasan (Ali ibn Musa Al-Ridha) [a]: I asked him about Amir-ul-Momineen, why he did not seek to return Fadak when he ruled the people, and he replied: “Because we the Ahlul Bayt do not take our rights from those who have wronged us, except Him (Allah). And we are the Awliya of the Momineen, we rule for them and take (and return) their rights from those that wronged them, and we do not take it for ourselves.”

[quote]
sheikh ninowy is a Sayeed from progeny of Hz.Ali and Hz. Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with them both) – Surely he will appreciate the quality and brilliance/majesty of the language used but will never agree with the content/slant of Sermon.
[/QUOTE]

It is great honor from Allah SWT bestowed upon Amirul Momineen that the progeny of Ali are the progeny of the Messenger of Allah.....Indeed if Sheikh Ninowy is a Syed then there is no other but Amirul Momineen to be his great-great grand-father along with the Prophet of Allah.......btw from Islamic perspective the "quality and brilliance" matters to nothing if the contents r false.....the very reason why Quran discourages poetry regardless of the apparent beauty of the words......if the sermon was in any way from weak sources and that too with material against ur "great sheikhs" then I dont think it wud b taught in your religious seminaries (will be censored like Zul Asheera etc) regardless of whatever faculty they might be taught under ......u shud really check this with sheikh ninowy....

Re: Sects of Islam

Folks here might be having difficulty swallowing this exchange of letters between Muhammad son of Abi Bakr and Muawiya. And this is why historian Tabari had suppressed the contents of this particular exchange because he suggested that "the common people (amma) would not bear hearing it" (see: Succession to Mohammad by Wilfred Madelung, pg. 222, Tabari, I, 3248). It is recorded by other historians most notable of whom is Al Baladhuri who has recorded it in his work Ansab al Ashraf. Soon after this exchange Muhammad was killed on the orders of Muawiya.

Re: Sects of Islam

Please all ... we are not discussing the differences of sects - merely the fact that they exist and how chronologically they came about ... please refrain from speaking about the dogmatic differences ... JazakAllahukhair ..

Re: Sects of Islam

psyah do you still think alawi are not a subset of shia?

yeah sure we can say they may have just carried on believing what they did before (i dont know what they believed) but this most certainly can be said for 12ers aswell. one doesnt have to delve far into zoroastarianism before coming into the word ISMA, self harm (negative custom iirc) and a whole host of 12er beliefs that we wondered the origins of.

however you never specified the group you were refering to as just 'shia'. i assume it is 12ers from whose beliefs i think the alawi/nusayri position is logical simplification. i accept both these groups and ismailis too as shiites, however i do not accept any of these groups are a sect of islam. the reason why people have mentioned shia/sunni sometimes with the word 'split' is due to the arguements presented by shias, in that it is a major religion of the world which claims being shia(sect). in this regard they have alot of favourable press being afforded them, to the extent that i once apologiesed to the mirzai community for their indifferent treatment

Re: Sects of Islam

Dude, umar changed ur salat because he was so impressed by the folding of the hands of zoarastians …if u ever get a chance to take ur fingers off the keyboard and pick up a real book then u might want to try read the opinion of imam Malik ibn Anas on this…and if u want to know abt umar’s obsession with the pagan scriptures then read up on who was ‘Kaab al Ahbar’… :smilestar:

Re: Sects of Islam

I don't know about Alawis but I know Ahmadis are a subset of Hanafi sunnis.

Re: Sects of Islam

Peace shardmanny

Subset? Well there are two types of subset ... one which can be classed as compatible and the other is incompatible ... From my understanding the mu'tazili aqeedah underlies the basis of Shi'a belief - Although Ahl-us-Sunnah deem this a deviant theology, it cannot be considered that Shi'a are the same as the 'Alawis who evidently worship people. I think it is sensible and reasonable to allow the Shi'a to disassociate themselves from the Alwais - they have this right.

So an incompatible subset I am prepared to believe, but I cannot accept that Alawis somehow represent the Shi'a orthodoxy ...

Re: Sects of Islam

There is absolutely no need for this tanz ... I've got your point though ,,,

Re: Sects of Islam

Nussairee … Your name suggests that you are Alawi … Is this true? If so … Are you Shi’a?

By the way please refrain from speaking about any of the Sahabah … this topic does not include them …

Re: Sects of Islam

My dear brother Nussairee Assalama alaykum – First accept my apologies for delayed response (Just needed a break) I accept your thanks very humbly, I thought I might as well paste the concerned part for the viewers benefit so that they can see it easily and not scroll around looking for the link.

You must read the letter as it is and get the gist of his message. Don’t try to mix it up with other issues. The onus is on you to post the prior letter which you are referring to and prove your point.

Hz. Ali (ra) is shown to contradict himself in Nahjul Balagha. This is insult to him as he always spoke the truth whatever the price.

Are you denying what Hz. Ali (ra) has stated that:

1) His election/selection to be the Khalifah as legitimate as that of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them)?
2) Anyone who has pledged the bayah cannot rescind it?
3) Anyone who was absent has not right to oppose it (Keep in mind that Hz. Ali (ra) was absent from Saqifah – similarly Hz. Muawiyah (ra) was absent when bayah was given to Hz. Ali (ra)?
4) Right to select/elect is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar?
5) Allah was pleased with whoever Muhajirs and the Ansar selected as the IMAM of the Ummah of that time. (Allah was well aware the Hz. Ali (ra) was around?
6) All must accept the decision of the Muhajirs and Ansar, dissidents should be persuaded, rebels fought?

Having said the above would he now claim that he was robbed of his rightful position?

Certainly NOT.

This is clear as a daylight that Hz. Ali (ra) deemed selection/election of his erstwhile and noble predecessors (may Allah be pleased with them) as legitimate, selection limited to the Muhajirs and Ansar ONLY, and IMPORTANTLY Allah (swt) was pleased this selection.

Do you deny the above?

You claim it to be sheikhdoms – Whereas your infallible Imam considers their rule as per pleasure of Allah (swt). And considers them as the Imams of the Ummah!!!!!! Note that Hz. Ali (ra) has used the IMAM for them.

Do you deny their Imamate when your infallible proclaims it?

[QUOTE]
5) So if they decide upon a man and declare him their IMAM, then it is with the pleasure of Allah
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It is so easy for your go against your infallible Imam but are so loyal to later day ‘Ayatullahs’. Who preach you otherwise.

With pleasure you are most welcome to post any letter/sermon you have in mind – (I have read the sermon 3).
The onus is on you to reconcile the discrepancies. Hz. Ali (ra) cannot utter a word against a deed which pleased Allah (swt). And reconcile with the following too:

Re: Sects of Islam

Assalama alaykum brother psyah – Shias adopted parts of mut’azilli aqeedah around in 17th and 18th century.
Prior to that they have been far from using rationality.

In 17th and 18th century AD there was a reformation movement in 12er Shias.

Shias have been ever splitting and evolving and changing with time from the time it began.

After Martyrdom of Hz. Hussein (ra) there was always dispute in Imamate succession. Thus Shias split as distinct groups called fivers (Zaidis) , seveners (Ismailis) and the twelvers (Ithnā‘ashariyyah)

Zaidi and Ismail Shias were very active politically as they had continuous succession of imams. Whereas the 12ers were very apolitical;l from Hz. Hussein (ra) onwards all their imams did not indulge in politics of power rather very judicially kept aloof from politics.

Around this time 12er Shias were never a majority within the Shia world – That would most probably be the Ismailis.

With disappearance of the 12th imam at the tender age of 4 years, 12ers were lead by him through 4 wazirs (agents). The hidden Imam communicated via letters and never met any of hid representatives!

This period is called Minor Occultation (Ghaybat al-Sughra) from 874-941 AD. After the death of 4th representative the Imam decided to go into Major Occultation (ghaybat-i kubra) and the 12th Imam had decided not to appoint another deputy stating “the period of my major occultation will begin. Henceforth, (on the death of 4th representative) no one will see me, unless and until Allah makes me appear. My reappearance will take place after a very long time when people will have grown tired of waiting and those who are weak in their faith will say: What! Is he still alive”?

This period of 12er shias was full of turmoil with no Imam to lead them the people felt lost as there was no central Authority.
At 1500AD the Safavids who were originally extreme Sunni Sufis took control of Iran and adopted 12er Shiaism as state religion and by sheer brutal force started enforcing it on public at large.

Iran around that time was a overwhelming Sunni State, thus Safavids had to import 12er scholars from Lebanon to propagate this sect on the helpless population. Sunnis scholars were killed or banished.

This is first time that 12ers had any political power!

With the defeat of Safavids by the Afghans in 1720AD 12ers again ran into leadership crisis. There began a big struggle between the Traditionists and the Rationalists – With Rationalists winning the argument and employing strong-arm tactics and brutal military force to enforce it.

http://udini.proquest.com/view/usuli-shiism-the-emergence-of-an-pqid:2431564861/

So Usuli 12ers reorganized themselves and the Scholars were given the authority on behalf of the Imam.

The concepts and terms like Naib Al Imam, waliyat al Fiqih, ayatollah came into being.

Read about concept of Wilayat al Faqih: It is still very controversial concept among the shia.

Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Information about Akhbari (Traditionalist) 12er Shia

Akhbari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Akhbari (Traditionalist) 12er Shia rejection of Usulis

Welcome to Akhbari.com

Akhbari (Traditionalist) 12er Shia still believe the Quran was Altered!!!

Evidence of Tehreef (Alterations) in Quran (Akhbari Website) Akhbari 12er Shias still believe that ayahs of Quran were altered!!!

Welcome to Akhbari.com

The dispute between the Akhbari and the Usuli (Akhbari Website) The major points where Akhbari Shia differ with Usuli Shia

Welcome to Akhbari.com

Very interesting read (around 220 pages) about reformation in the 12er Shia

USULI SHI‘ISM: THE EMERGENCE OF AN ISLAMIC REFORM MOVEMENT IN EARLY MODERN IRAQ AND IRAN

Re: Sects of Islam

I wonder what will be the conclusion of this thread :hmmm:

Re: Sects of Islam

Wow yeh tau bari ajeeb baat hai – iss tau say saaf zahir howta hay kay Shia hazraat Quraan mein tareef ko maantay hain.

Kiyaa Shia hazraat iss ki tasdeeq kar sakthe hain? Akbari shai koon hotay hain? Ye Pakistan mein hain?

Re: Sects of Islam

Wa'alaykumusSalam brother Ibn Sadique

The history was very refreshing ... In this thread I was stating how I didn't feel that modern day Alawis or Nusairees (people worshippers) represent the first Shi'a ... Please may you highlight when this particular sect started to behave with these types of traits?

It is interesting to say the least that modern day 12ers might be people who are a bit Sunni in their outlook because of the Safavids ...

Re: Sects of Islam

Muhammad al Asi..

Re: Sects of Islam

[mod]Please refrain passing irrelevant/disrepectful comments and stay on topic plz[/mod]

Re: Sects of Islam

I'm still none the wiser about the Alawi sect ... It does not make sense to me how they can be "most authentic sect" yet have such radical differences from Ahl-us-Sunnah. I can imagine that the very people of the Shi'at Ali were political separatists who later created a dogma that attempted to defame the Khulafa-e-Rashideen ... Of course this dogma creation will be denied by the other camp, but this is not my contention ... My contention is that I cannot see modern Fivers, Seveners or Twelvers being the same as the first groups. They must have "developed" to what they are now ... so the core question is "when did such mushrik beliefs enter the Alawis?"

Re: Sects of Islam

Peace All,

In 1920, the alwais was refered by the french occupational forces. In History from Ali ibn Abu talib to Muhammad ibn al-hassan, all were poisoned. The alawis themselves trace their original to the eleventh Imam, Hassan al-Askari and his pupil Ibn Nusayr.

Hassan Al-Askari had a son 'Muhammad Al Mahdi' whose birth was concealed because of the belief he will reappear at the end of time to fill the world with justice, peace and to estabish Islam as the global religion.

Ibn Nusayr also known as al-khasibi who were divided into a sect called 'kayyaliyaah'. The Kayyali family were sucessfull politicians, businessmen, artist and considered desecendants from the Prophet.

If we dig in history than some other tribes like Byzantine Empire, Hittites and Canaan comes into our study and one way or another all of these tribes somehow related to mysterious city of babylon and/or and the signls lead to 'one eyes'. No wonder why there is so so differences in one religion.

In this recent era 'alawais' is also known as self divinse sect.

Re: Sects of Islam

salam lk
actually this is not true although it is well touted within twelvers, even they do not have concensus on the poisoning or even murdering of the imams. its a story like the stories around Husain Ra they have created