Sects of Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Salams All

This thread may create a lot of interest, but it relates to another thread recently closed in World Affairs. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding sects of Islam. The major accepted sect of Islam are the Shi’a - who constitute less than 10% of the world population of Muslims. There are also other sects which are not strictly considered Islamic - some of them have split away from the Shi’a and others have attached themselves to the Shi’a.

The Ismai’li sect for example is one that had split away from the Shi’a sect and the Alawis are one group that have gravitated towards it - neither of them are accepted by the Shi’a …

The initial Shi’a sect developed due to political reasons - Sunnis consider them disrespectful to the Sahabah as a whole, and accept certain traits which are considered impious, but they are not and were not ever engaging in shirk - at least not in its most overt form. Also, the 5 pillars if that is a standard to go by were not ever rejected by the Shi’a.

On the other hand those sects that consider humans worthy of worship, and who practice wholesale customs from various religions and resemble them and side politically with them are extraneous divisions taking them outside the folds of monotheism. There is also another classification in between where the Ahl-al-kitab are given a pseudo-importance between the pagans and Muslims, whether they might fit in to those categories is debatable, but Zoroastrians since they predate the Islam we know today, might well be classed in to those categories.

The Alawis do not have a break away point from Shi’aism to be considered a sub-sect of the Shi’as … Rather, the more coherent history of the Alawis is that they were always around as pagans who adopted customs from the people around them to blend in. To this very day the actual method of worship the Alawis engage in is secretly held amongst them. The don’t simply say that praying Salah is not necessary, they do not believe and have not believed in that form of prayer … but they will have you guessing.

The world today is one which is based on many dynamics, some conspiratorial and others through selfishness and greed we see the situation at hand in the Middle-East. It is easier for the Alawis to be taken as being a sect of Muslims rather than being taken as a pagan people so they have claimed to be a sect of the Shi’a … Funny because the Shi’a do not shun them for that it serves a dual purpose - the common political opponent to the Shi’a proper and the Alawis are the much more numerous Sunnis.

In terms of working together for a common cause - yes, it can happen and should happen … The politics should be kept well out of it. There are bigger problems at bay and that is coming from the West.

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Re: Sects of Islam

The classification of sects within Islam is a very complex subject. If by sect you take the meaning of a group that differs in some beliefs with other group of Muslims then the number of sects within Islam will well exceed in hundreds many of which have become extinct with time. The overall classification of two main branches of Shia and Sunni refers to the original and central split in Islam in the form of the dispute over the issue of succession of Rasool Allah saw. There have been many many sub branches ever since.

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^ Peace Surdar Asif

I totally agree with you ... I was trying to keep it simple ... The basis that I have come to agree with is the basis of the 'aqeedah ... That being those who profess to the validity and accept the most simple aqeedah so long as their own elaborations of that aqeedah don't contradict with it.

It appears that the Maturidi and Ash'ari aqaid were used by Imam At-Tahawi to consolidate and formulate a corpus for the schools of Ahl-us-Sunnah (4 Sunni madhabs - fiqh) ... Essentially we operate with that code - so it doesn't matter what the group is called as long as their aqeedah is confirmed on the select few accepted versions.

The Tahawiyya aqeedah explicitly makes it clear that the Sahabah are the best people of this ummah and hence it is considered necessary that the Shi'a proper are a sect of Islam, that as well as the fact that they declare themselves as "The sect of Ali (RA)" - Otherwise there are other groups who also declare themselves as "sects of Ali (RA)" - who in fact are nothing to do with the original separation. So although they are functionally shi'atAli ... in the sense that they profess to him (RA) ... they are not a branch of THE Shi'a ...

It so happens that a lot of Shi'a have the mut'azili aqeedah, which has unianimously been rejected by the Ahl-us-Sunnah jammats. Essentially we have many groups - but not as many sects ... and then we have the great task of comparing the deviation against the orthodox beliefs with the deviation that is held by Jews and Christians to see where they can be given regard. Sectarianism is not hence a binary function necessarily speaking - yes there is an in and out aspect but then after that there are increasing levels of deviation through a spectrum of beliefs which include the Ahl-al-Kitab ...

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Re: Sects of Islam

wa alaikum salam
(if you find me frothing at the mouth its not you i am frothing at but the subject)

[quote]

This thread may create a lot of interest, but it relates to another thread recently closed in World Affairs. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding sects of Islam. The major accepted sect of Islam are the Shi'a - who constitute less than 10% of the world population of Muslims. There are also other sects which are not strictly considered Islamic - some of them have split away from the Shi'a and others have attached themselves to the Shi'a.
[/quote]

when you, brother, say shia, who are you refering to? those who profess following of Ali RA, the rawafidh, or whatever credentials acceptable to 12ers?

[quote]

The Ismai'li sect for example is one that had split away from the Shi'a sect and the Alawis are one group that have gravitated towards it - neither of them are accepted by the Shi'a ...

[/quote]

this moving away and coming closer is open to interpretation, youve got a stagnant picture of twelvers as ever present however they were not even around when you could say alawis (first) and the beginnings of ismaillis were being formed, and upto 100's others permutations were. from my own observations, including the works of imam Mumtaz ulHaq, i'd say the shiaism most recognisable to me as original is Alawi. when they refered to Ali RA as god, Ali RA killed them with fire thus proving to them that he was!(lol)

[quote]
The initial Shi'a sect developed due to political reasons - Sunnis consider them disrespectful to the Sahabah as a whole, and accept certain traits which are considered impious, but they are not and were not ever engaging in shirk - at least not in its most overt form. Also, the 5 pillars if that is a standard to go by were not ever rejected by the Shi'a.
[/quote]

i am of the opinion sunnis consider rawafidh to be disbelievers, not disrespectful.

and today shiaism is represented by rafdh, so if rafdh is ok for them so is polytheism, thus the search for the best representatives of kufri shiaism includes alawis, ismailis and 12ers. all forms of kufri shiaism are represented by shiaism and all forms of acceptable shiaism come under ASWJ (eg hanfi zaidis).

also the 12ers are living in perpetual takkaiyah which is impermissable for them to lift till their imam is here. so whatever they are currently doing is not part of the impermissability, thus the real 12erism is much much worse, and we have not seen it yet. this is secrecy just like the alawis, and without doubt it is a threat of unknown proportions but certain kufr.

will they take their 12th imam as God? yes according to myself, a view derived from a mixture of their religion and some warnings re-dajjal in ours

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Re: Sects of Islam

its perilous to agree with them!

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Settle down.....no need to "froth" so much......

[Quote]
when you, brother, say shia, who are you refering to? those who profess following of Ali RA, the rawafidh, or whatever credentials acceptable to 12ers?
[/quote]

If u ever get to stop frothing then perhaps u may actually reflect upon the saying of Prophet SAWW that every human is a brother of the other.....some in faith and others in humanity........only a non human wud work against this universal brotherhood.......u shud u ashamed really.....

[Quote]
this moving away and coming closer is open to interpretation, youve got a stagnant picture of twelvers as ever present however they were not even around when you could say alawis (first) and the beginnings of ismaillis were being formed, and upto 100's others permutations were. from my own observations, including the works of imam Mumtaz ulHaq, i'd say the shiaism most recognisable to me as original is Alawi. when they refered to Ali RA as god, Ali RA killed them with fire thus proving to them that he was!(lol)
[/quote]

Whatever that means.....lol

[Quote]
i am of the opinion sunnis consider rawafidh to be disbelievers, not disrespectful.
[/quote]

And why shudnt u think that when all the kings that u worship did exactly that.....meaning chasing ppl, terrorizing and killing them if they refused to bow down to their false authority.....or even speaking against their corruption and tyranny.....

[Quote]
and today shiaism is represented by rafdh, so if rafdh is ok for them so is polytheism, thus the search for the best representatives of kufri shiaism includes alawis, ismailis and 12ers. all forms of kufri shiaism are represented by shiaism and all forms of acceptable shiaism come under ASWJ (eg hanfi zaidis).
[/quote]

Lol......read what u have written and let me know if it even makes sense to u......

[Quote]
also the 12ers are living in perpetual takkaiyah which is impermissable for them to lift till their imam is here. so whatever they are currently doing is not part of the impermissability, thus the real 12erism is much much worse, and we have not seen it yet. this is secrecy just like the alawis, and without doubt it is a threat of unknown proportions but certain kufr.
[/quote]

I have told u before to not tell others about your kambal and "takkiya"......unless u mean taqqaiya which is clear from Quran.....but u probably beleive in Quran of the fat king of Syria......but anyway, command of taqqaiya is when life is endangered.......hardly the case on an internet forum like gupshup i wud imagine.......

[Quote]
will they take their 12th imam as God? yes according to myself, a view derived from a mixture of their religion and some warnings re-dajjal in ours
[/QUOTE]

Dajjal makes fitna.......very clear to see who the pious agent of dajjal is here......

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Re: Sects of Islam

@psyah

the major and successful revision of 12ers came fairly recently, a few hundred years ago, under the safavid brutal occupation of islamic iran. when muslims were murdered by shiites and at the same time their religion was made more recognisable as the one we see today. in 1979 they emulated what the ismailis did by appointing an imam (WF, not to be confused with WWF) but the ismailis had done that 1000 years ago under their own dynasty. thats a shiite credit to ismailis. so inshallah you see what im saying, shiite-ism may be represented by 12ers today but finding the best representative of kufri shiaism is not so easy even if 12erism has developed a system parralel to islam, and the other forms of traditional kufri shiaism have taken a backseat

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if u knew anything abt your own faith then u wud not dare talk abt revisionism let alone complain about the use of sword and violence.........but since u have then I will give u the highlights..........u, or the mullah who has spoon fed you this info, has very limited memory tht goes back to 1979..........they barely know anything abt our core txts or scholars, desciplies and companions of the Imam of Ahlay Bayt AS.........may b they only remember safavids and 1979 because both occasions made the thrones of their imperialist kings shake a little.............as for u trying to complain abt violence and force then ,beside lies and cover-ups, this is what ur school is based on...........its a school whose script was dictated by conquerors and kings evident by the praising of individuals proportional to what they happen to become, rather than something intrinsic to their being and what they managed to conquer regardless of how many laws of Islam were broken in the process...........so the likes of the tyrant king of syria, the founder of your faith and jamaat is the one to be admired and followed.......his warring against the Imam is passed as being an error in his ijtihad and he is also referred to by such honorifs as Amir Mu`awiya, Khal al-Mu'mineen, and Katib al-wahy........sahabis that he killed does not matter since they were simple, poor companions..........so Ammar Yasir and Hujr bin Adi do not really matter.........neither do Abu dharr Ghaffari who was killed by another corrupted king of urs.........along with ur famous caliph who was known for his his brutality and poor understanding of the Law, preferring to strike or kill first, ask questions later, ruling through fear and without compassion......no wonder you end up with guys like the Taliban......and blood thirsty gangs like the Anjuman of ASS (not to be confused with the animal Ass as it wud be a huge insult to the later)......

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Re: Sects of Islam

I think the problem rests with our understanding of the quran. So long as we take it as a holy book of a religion the problem of sects cannot go away. The reason is, belief based system are inherently divisive because beliefs cannot be evidence based or believing is all a matter of blind faith. When one basis his claims on nothing verifiable and reasoning is thrown out the outcome cannot be other than confusion.

This is why basic points of discussion are aqal and naqal ie making sense of things through careful observations. It is because some scholar derailed muslims by telling each other using aqal against an alleged divine revelation is unacceptable or that revelation is superior to intelligence. This brought about a serious confusion in muslim minds.

People did not stop and think that role of sense is to judge concepts and objects for their truth or falsehood or for their right or wrong or for their benefits or harms.

so brain has its own purpose and revelation has its own purpose and they are both different and none is against the other. Both come from same source and complement each other.

The brain is active agent whereas revelation is just a piece of information. It is up to brain to make sense of revelation in light of real world realities. This is the proper way of looking at things.

People who cannot understand this are having problems themselves and they cause problems for others as well and this is at the root of all sectarianism we see around us.

The basic truth is how would a muslim know the quran is word of God but not the bible or how would a christian know the bible is word of God but the quran is not? This shows how silly some people are who are against using brain ie reasoning and evidence. The only way to decide matters one way or the other is brain. You judge the available information in form of testimonies and evidences pointed out in the given statements and see how they make sense. So the ultimate decision rests with brain.

It is for this reason people who promote faith based ideas are talking nonsense and are responsible for causing divisions between people for their own ends.

In islam there is no basis for sectarian divide in the quran, anyone who promotes negative divisions amongst muslims of any sort is not doing any service to islam. Even the prophet was told to stay away from people who want to divide each other and cause troubles. All prophets were sent to unite humanity under one rule. Those who became divided, they had their own senseless reasons nothing to do with divine revelations.

This is why understanding the quran is of vital importance than blindly following mullahs who are at the root of all this harm and destruction.

The quran is all about the set out goal called islam=peace. Allah does not accept any belief or action of anyone unless it promotes islam=peace. So those who promote anything other than islam are ignorant and arrogant and trouble makers for mankind. This is why whatever they say or do against islam is unacceptable to God and should be unacceptable to humanity as well. Humanity must rejects such elements from within it as cause problems for it instead of helping it solves its problems.

This is why regardless what anyone claims one is trouble maker unless one works for peace of human community. This is the over all message of the quran.

Any silly interpretation of the quran which leads to divisions therefore is false and people should not act on it instead they should learn what is wrong with it so that they could become aware of harm and destruction it can cause if followed. The quran encourages us to plan our course of actions by keeping the end results of those actions in sight so that we could see where we will end up if we acted that way.

This is how the quran teaches us to be wise.

So anyone who tries to justify anything on sectarian basis is doing the wrong thing. If we have any sense then we should be able to see it clearly but if we do not have the sense we need then the first and foremost things to do is learn sense and not follow each other blindly into the ditch like sheep.

What is there outside the sense other than nonsense? Our loyalty should be to God and humanity. So long as e have this as basis, we cannot go wrong.

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Speaker in the above video in my opinion does not shown real familiarity with primary issues pertaining the Shia-Sunni schism. Such as:

0:35 It will be just historical revisionism to suggest that the Sunnis as known today are or have been the dominant school and continuation of the earliest days, which the existence of the many sects, political dynasties, and civil wars would seem to argue against. It is in reality amalgamation of number of early trends. A little similar to Christianity where later "consensus" reached under the council of Jeruselum packaged many early ideas together and anybody who stood against was treated as deviated, and thus marginilized and often supressed.

0:45 Kharijis did not appear in the begining but were the result of several factors related to the original split that had already taken place in Islam right at the death of Rasool Allah saw.

1:15 Hazrat Uthman was killed because he was accused by the people as not "just enough".Between Imam Ali and Khawarij the real bone of contention was Imam's handling of the opposition from Syria and not him being "pious enough".

2:00 Shia are majority in Bahrain, Lebanon and according to some close to majority in Yemen.

2:25 - 3:10 Political authority is an integral part of Islam just as it was in the mission of the previous Prophets preceeding Rasool Allah saw. Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, Mohammad pbut all challegened the temporal political authorities of their times with the revoloutionary political theory based on tauheed.

3:30 The 4 things he has mentoned are not the "sources of religious authority" but they are the principles of juripudence. In Shia Islam they are the same except for 'Qiyas' changed with 'Aql'. The actual sources of religious authority in Sunnis are Quran-Rasool-Allah-Sahaba (including wives and the family of Rasool Allah). For Shia they are Rasool Allah-Quran-Ahlay Bayt (the selected family members of Rasool Allah).

3:50 Sunnis do not accept ALL the hadiths and neither do Shia reject all the hadiths. There is comon problem of seperating the trustworthy hadiths from the non-trustworthy ones. But the major difference being the source of transmission of hadiths which in Shia are coming through the Imams, with Imam being Masoom and spiritually inheriting the Prophet's knowledge as a grace from Allah. In Sunnis the words of Rasool Allah are transmitted through the Sahabas (vast majority of them from 4 individuals Hazrat Aisha, Abdullah ib Umar, Abu Hurayrah, and Anas bin Malik).

4:05 The idea of 'Isma' (infalliblity is perhaps not the best word) of the Ahlul Bayt can be argued from Quran and muttawatir hadiths found in both Shia and Sunni books. For instance, Quran orders not to "follower a sinner" or Imam "can not be a wrong doer" or hadith of Rasool Allah that "Ali is with haq and haq is with Ali" or "Whoever considers me his master, Ali is his master" and so on.

5:35 Communication with Imam al Mehdi was during minor occultation. During major occultation (ghaybat e kubra) such a thing is not possible.

5:45 Because the model of Sunni hierarchy fell apart very early. There is disagreement between Sunni theologians themselves of the exacty period but most say it fell away after Imam Ali or Imam Hasan when Muawiya became the undisputed ruler over Muslims. The idea that Islam is supposed to be against hierarchy sounds more Marxist than Islamic and needs detailed answer. Quran highlights the decendants of past Prophets who go on to become their spiritual and material heirs.

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Peace Surdar Asif

Well your post was quite hair splitting, but the intent of why I posted the video was not to show we are right and Shi'a are wrong, but to show how the schism took place. Regardless of who is right or not, we can see clearly that the Alawis are not the original Shi'a ... And essentially the split was political and not dogmatic.

Some of your contentions above we're erroneous, but this thread was not the place for those contentions ...

3:02 to 3:22

Demonstrates my point.

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Re: Sects of Islam

In my opinion this guy in a video made by the British council does a better job in summarising it…

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Re: Sects of Islam

Hair splitting? Not a very "peaceful" way to show your disagreement. :)

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Re: Sects of Islam

as salam alaikum to all muslims
(of course nusayris (alawis) are insanely kafir group, the only question really is whether they can be classed as shiites)

generally i hold the view that the current full shia spectrum goes from muslims all the way to the alawis . however i hold loyalty to 12er doctrines as a breakaway point between being muslim or being something else. when we say the word shia in normal use it is 12ers that we refer to

i'd just like to say whatever conclusion psyah comes to will be closer to the correct one. i do acknowledge this

perhaps i can offer some points for consideration, psyah are you looking at this inclusive of religious beliefs or without? or a mix up of religion, history, proclaimations ie tawheed, shahada as we proclaim, some conformity to our understanding is a must?
the reason for this question is that all shias partly or completely deny Quran (remember who put Quran togather.)

the rumour on alawis/nusayris is they proclaim 'there is no god but ali' - which is likely true for them. now this tells me they are shiite founded because fourth caliph, cousin brother of Messenger SAW - Ali (ra) is not given top reverence by anyone else and always given top reverence by shiites in whatever form they take.

shiaism in all kufri forms is ALI,ALI,ALI,ALI,ALI. to me alawi beliefs are a development on general shia thought (infallible, on the thrown, questioner in qabar etc). dont forget the sect of those being refered to as 'shia islam' believe Ali ra to be the RAB mentioned in the Quran. 12ers shias can also believe imam controls the atoms of the universe, etc etc

theres much much more, its all pointing to not being too far in thought from alawis. i do realise some shias are trying to present a more moderate picture but they are basically jumping around religiously. im not fooled by it

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Re: Sects of Islam

sharmanny:

[quote]
i am of the opinion sunnis consider rawafidh to be disbelievers, not disrespectful.
[/quote]
Not surprising at all. Wahhabis consider sunnis to be disbelievers. Some sunnis consider Wahhabis to be disbelievers.
Quite a medieval thinking from medieval people at the bottom of many civilizations in the world.

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Always saddens me to come across an ill mannered person.....Quran says,,

"And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Salaam !’ (Peace).” [Al-Qur’an, Surah Furqan 25:63]

more unfortunate is the person who testifies to the message of Prophet SAWW yet shows no signs of benefiting from it.........when Prophet SAWW called his close relatives in the feast of asheera, he welcomed them with the word 'peace'.......but obviously those ignorant of the thaqalain will learn not.....neither from Quran nor from the pure household of the Prophet SAWW.......take a long, hard look at how far u r from the real teachings of Islam....

[Quote]

generally i hold the view that the current full shia spectrum goes from muslims all the way to the alawis . however i hold loyalty to 12er doctrines as a breakaway point between being muslim or being something else. when we say the word shia in normal use it is 12ers that we refer to
[/quote]

And tell me who cares really about your certifications?

[Quote]

i'd just like to say whatever conclusion psyah comes to will be closer to the correct one. i do acknowledge this
[/quote]

Truth is not referential my dear.......(no disrespect to Psyah)

[Quote]
perhaps i can offer some points for consideration, psyah are you looking at this inclusive of religious beliefs or without? or a mix up of religion, history, proclaimations ie tawheed, shahada as we proclaim, some conformity to our understanding is a must?
[/quote]

What's najidi religion?......history written by darbari historians.....tawheed where god is restricted to a body and rides a donkey, nauzobillah......shahada which is used as a blanket to undertake services for shaitaan?

[Quote]
Our position is that all shias partly or completely deny Quran (remember who put Quran togather.)
[/quote]

U r pretending that u know when in fact u dont.....if u want to prove something you're going to have to improve a lot first.......u have been debunked on ur half, actually they're empty, claims here before......but ifu want to keep on playing deaf and bllind then just tell us so we can give up struggling to get our words across and just let u keep wasting the bandwidth......

[Quote]
the rumour on alawis/nusayris is they proclaim 'there is no god but ali' - which is likely true for them. now this tells me they are shiite founded because fourth caliph, cousin brother of Messenger SAW - Ali (ra) is not given top reverence by anyone else and always given top reverence by shiites in whatever form they take
[/quote]

So shardmany hands out his little kufr certificates based on 'rumors'!

[Quote]
shiaism in all kufri forms is ALI,ALI,ALI,ALI,ALI. to me alawi beliefs are a development on general shia thought (infallible, on the thrown, questioner in qabar etc). dont forget the sect of those being refered to as 'shia islam' believe Ali ra to be the RAB mentioned in the Quran. 12ers shias can also believe imam controls the atoms of the universe, etc etc
[/quote]

More bakri 'rumors'....

[Quote]
theres much much more, its all pointing to not being too far in thought from alawis. i do realise some shias are trying to present more moderate picture but they are basically jumping around religiously. im not fooled by it
[/QUOTe]

u need to be 'fooled'?

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Peace khoji

Nice try ... But my contentions with individuals is going to be direct ... When it comes to whole communities yes ... In that case I won't paint everyone with same brush ... The fact is the points of contention are wrong or pedantic. The term hair splitting demonstrates my sentiments.

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By the way the person who I quoted is Abdal Hakim Murad, Timothy Winter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He is the shaykh Zayed lecturer in the facility of Islamic studies at Cambridge uni …

He knows quite a few languages fluently …