Sects of Islam

[shardmanny]

Re: Sects of Islam

@ninja_hattori

wt is authenticity of these letters?

not authentic
but that doesnt stop people from making IMAM* say something different even still (like jewish rabbis)

check the translations posted and read this (by ibn sadique and psyah)
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/520645-part-1-the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imam-5.html

of course both brothers did not publically make the claim of shia participants being like jewish rabbis but the reformist shia scholar has done that. he makes a welcome point but truth is harsher then that

*shia religion actually allows lieing on imams. they have to!

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

@shardmanny

not authentic

why, simply b/c u say so?

but that doesnt stop people from making IMAM* say something different even still (like jewish rabbis)

whatever tht means!

check the translations posted and read this (by ibn sadique and psyah)
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/520645-part-1-the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imam-5.html

read what? paste it here…

of course both brothers did not publically make the claim of shia participants being like jewish rabbis but the reformist shia scholar has done that. he makes a welcome point but truth is harsher then that

do u know anything abt Jewish rabbis or r u just parroting wht ur mullah told u?..the rabbis represented the ruling elite tht did not like what Isa his mother and Zakaria stood for…these r more suitable titles for ur idols who oppressed and killed others and tampered with the religion of Islam…

*shia religion actually allows lieing on imams. they have to!

whats “lieing”?

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Sects of Islam

@Nussairee

References:
Jamharat Rasaail al-Arab, Vol. 1, p. 477.
Al-Mas`udi, Muruj al-Dhahab, Vol. 2, p. 60.
Ibn Abul-Hadid, Sharh Nahjul Balagha, Vol. 1, p. 284.

@ninja_hattori

wt is authenticity of these letters?

@Nussairee

I know that 2nd and 3rd references r the books of Mutazile ulema…

Brother your information is not correct.

2nd and 3rd references are NOT the books of Mutazile ulema but Shi’i scholars!

Al-Mas`udi (Abu al-Hasan Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Ali al-Mas’udi)

His reputation

Sunnis do not rely upon al-Masudi due to his Shii and Mutazili influences. For example, Ibn Hajar writes about al-Masudi that “And his books are imprecise because he was a Shi’a, a Mu’tazili.”.[11] Al-Dhahabi [12] and Taj al-Din al-Subki also confirmed that he was a Mu`tazili.[13]

In fact, he is considered to be of Shi`i thought by the following:

• Aga Buzurg al-Tehrani inMawsu’a al-Dhari’a ila Tasanif al-Shi’a
• Isma’il al-Baghdadi in Hadya al-‘Arifeen
• Bahr al-‘Uloom in al-Fawa’id al-Rijalia
• Al-Hilli in Khulasa al-Aqwal
• Al-Najashi in his book on Rijal
• Al-Tafrashi in Naqd al-Rijal
• Al-‘Amli in Amal al-Aamal
• Al-Barujardi in Tara’if al-Maqal [14]

Al-Masudi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nahjul Balagha was compiled by Syed Razi a Shi’I scholar

Nahjul Balagha is that most reputed collection of the utterances of Amirul Momineen Ali Bin Abi Talib, peace and greetings be upon him, which was compiled by Syed Razi, brother of Sharif Murtaza, the ensign of guidance, towards the close of the 4th century of Hijra.

Lineage of Sayyid al Radi and his Life || Imam Reza (A.S.) Network

Ibn Abul-Hadid (Izz al-Din ibn Hibatullah ibn Abi l-Hadid) (d. 656/1258) a Mutazile just wrote a commentary on Nahjul Balagha.

Jamharat Rasaail al-Arab author’s name is not given. (my guess - must be Shia just like the 2 before.

[queer]

Re: Sects of Islam

sects, sects, sects. is that all you religious people think about.

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

@Ibn_Sadique

Brother your information is not correct.

2nd and 3rd references are NOT the books of Mutazile ulema but Shi’i scholars!

Al-Mas`udi (Abu al-Hasan Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Ali al-Mas’udi)

His reputation

Sunnis do not rely upon al-Masudi due to his Shii and Mutazili influences. For example, Ibn Hajar writes about al-Masudi that “And his books are imprecise because he was a Shi’a, a Mu’tazili.”.[11] Al-Dhahabi [12] and Taj al-Din al-Subki also confirmed that he was a Mu`tazili.[13]

In fact, he is considered to be of Shi`i thought by the following:

• Aga Buzurg al-Tehrani inMawsu’a al-Dhari’a ila Tasanif al-Shi’a
• Isma’il al-Baghdadi in Hadya al-‘Arifeen
• Bahr al-‘Uloom in al-Fawa’id al-Rijalia
• Al-Hilli in Khulasa al-Aqwal
• Al-Najashi in his book on Rijal
• Al-Tafrashi in Naqd al-Rijal
• Al-‘Amli in Amal al-Aamal
• Al-Barujardi in Tara’if al-Maqal [14]

Al-Masudi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nahjul Balagha was compiled by Syed Razi a Shi’I scholar

Lineage of Sayyid al Radi and his Life || Imam Reza (A.S.) Network

Ibn Abul-Hadid (Izz al-Din ibn Hibatullah ibn Abi l-Hadid) (d. 656/1258) a Mutazile just wrote a commentary on Nahjul Balagha.

Jamharat Rasaail al-Arab author’s name is not given. (my guess - must be Shia just like the 2 before.

No brother, your info is incorrect…Al Masudi was a Mutazili and the reason he is a “considered” shia or rafidhi in other terms is b/c he decided to opinionate himself a bit more openly then the others…just like Maududi was called Shia even by his own subordinates because he commented only on Uthman, Muawiya, Marwan, Amr ibn Aas and the team…
As for Ibn Al Hadid…he wrote the famous sharh of Nahjul Balagha…yes the compiler of the book is Sharif al Radi but the references I talked abt is not from Nahjul Balagha itself but from the footnotes and commentary of Mutazili Ibn al Hadid…
and ur guess abt the 3rd one might b wrong too like the first 2 guesses…

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

@queer

sects, sects, sects. is that all you religious people think about.

I am not sectarian but more of a humanity first sort of person in real life wud u believe…but sometimes u got to speak to some of these guys in the language tht they try to beat down everybody else with…

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Sects of Islam

^ So in real life you are "more of a humanity first sort of person" and on cyber space a die-hard sectarian ;)

[QUOTE]
In fact, he is considered to be of Shi`i thought by the following:

• Aga Buzurg al-Tehrani inMawsu’a al-Dhari’a ila Tasanif al-Shi’a
• Isma’il al-Baghdadi in Hadya al-‘Arifeen
• Bahr al-‘Uloom in al-Fawa’id al-Rijalia
• Al-Hilli in Khulasa al-Aqwal
• Al-Najashi in his book on Rijal
• Al-Tafrashi in Naqd al-Rijal
• Al-‘Amli in Amal al-Aamal
• Al-Barujardi in Tara’if al-Maqal [14]
[/QUOTE]

Are you going to argue with the above - I think they are all Shia and some names seem to quite important.

They want him in and you want him out!!! :)

Anyway these Shia books were written nearly four centuries after the events.

[khoji]

Re: Sects of Islam

@Nussairee

whats "lieing"?

LOL @ "lieing" from him.
Like I say, intolerance/hatred shown by a person is directly proportional to his** low intelligence**.

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

@Ibn_Sadique

^ So in real life you are "more of a humanity first sort of person" and on cyber space a die-hard sectarian ;)

No, u have added the 2nd part by urself.....I love humanity both in real and virtual worlds......that means I hate the scums who work against humanity.....let me know if u want me to elobrate a bit more.....:)

[Quote]
Are you going to argue with the above - I think they are all Shia and some names seem to quite important.

They want him in and you want him out!!! :)

Anyway these Shia books were written nearly four centuries after the events.
[/QUOTE]

Why wud I want out someone who tried to speak the truth?......u guys don't want him thats no problem.......everybody is welcome at the doorsteps of Mohammad wa aalay Mohammad....

What Shia books r u talking about?

[shardmanny]

Re: Sects of Islam

[QUOTE]
let me know if u want me to elobrate a bit
[/QUOTE]

dont start any of that here
keep it to wailing wall

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

^Well well, look who’s talking…

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Sects of Islam

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.** Nahjul Balagha Sermon 91**

Brother** Nussairee** Imam Ali (ra) would NOT have uttered the above words if he was indeed ‘divinely chosen’ as the Imam of the time. He is duty bound to carry out the Divine Will.

Can you imagine Prophet (saw) saying to the Makkans “Leave me and seek someone else”?

I am sure you know the following response of the Prophet (saw) to his Uncle Abu Talib who advised the Prophet (saw) ‘taper down’ his mission and not ‘provoke’ the Makkan.

"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist there form until Allaah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt."

Imam Ali (ra)’s response would have been in same vein!!

But in the above Sermon Imam Ali (ra) says:
“ It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counselor than as chief”

1) He will follow any person the people at large opted for.
2) He is willing to be a counselor rather than be a chief.

This is not in line with Divine appointment!

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.** Nahjul Balagha Sermon 91**

Brother** Nussairee** Imam Ali (ra) would NOT have uttered the above words if he was indeed ‘divinely chosen’ as the Imam of the time. He is duty bound to carry out the Divine Will.

Can you imagine Prophet (saw) saying to the Makkans “Leave me and seek someone else”?

I am sure you know the following response of the Prophet (saw) to his Uncle Abu Talib who advised the Prophet (saw) ‘taper down’ his mission and not ‘provoke’ the Makkan.

"O my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, to force me to renounce my work, verily I would not desist there form until Allaah made manifest His cause, or I perished in the attempt."

Imam Ali (ra)’s response would have been in same vein!!

But in the above Sermon Imam Ali (ra) says: “ It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counselor than as chief”

1) He will follow any person the people at large opted for. 2) He is willing to be a counselor rather than be a chief.

This is not in line with Divine appointment!

Dear Ibn Sadique, sure u understand the importance of context in understanding speech of the Imam......was this speech of his before or around the time of the coup of Saqeefa or was it a couple of decades later?..........rather than fast forwarding 2 decades later u shud first shed some light on what Imam said abt the matter of leadership at the time of death of the Prophet saww.....

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Sects of Islam

Thank you brother Nussairee – That’s the response I was looking forward from you. I am sure that you have Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah in mind. See, there is no consistency here.

If Imam Ali (ra) was the appointed Imam of the time and Divinely appointed successor to the Prophet (saw) his stance would have been constant. Divine appointments cannot be treated with whims and situations. Whatever the odds or advantages, He has to vigorously pursue his ‘divinely appointed’ status. Otherwise he is NOT following the Divine commands. And this is far from the noble character of Imam Ali (ra).

Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah can be read from the following link – It is the third Sermon.

Nahj al-Balaghah

The Sermon does injustice to Imam Ali (ra). It shows him as aggravated, disappointed angry man. Helpless and frustrated and bearing his loss very grudgingly.

This Sermon does a lot of injustice to the noble of character of Imam Ali (ra).

Read the footnote of the Sermon – there is a very strong reservation about the authenticity of the sermon and attributing it as imagination of Sayyid Radi!!!

Footnotes by translator:

[1].This sermon is known as the sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah, and is counted among the most famous sermons of Amir al-mu’minin. It was delivered at ar-Rahbah. Although some people have denied it to be Amir al-mu’minin’s utterance and by attributing it to as-Sayyid ar-Radi (or ash-Sharif ar-Radi) have laid blame on his acknowledged integrity, yet truth-loving scholars have denied its veracity. Nor can there be any ground for this denial because `Ali’s (p.b.u.h.) difference of view in the matter of Caliphate is not a secret matter, so that such hints should be regarded as something alien.

Also historical events and relationship of Imam Ali (ra) with Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra) negates the above sermon.

Leaving everything aside, Hz. Ali married Abu Bakr (ra) widow and brought up his (Abu Bakr’s) son as his own!!!

Hz. Ali (ra) married his own second daughter Umm Kulthum to Hz. Umar bin Khattab (ra)!!!

This debunks Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah . Think about this.

[Krypton]

Re: Sects of Islam

@queer

sects, sects, sects. is that all you religious people think about.

hate you for making me laugh at a computer screen.

[STA]

Re: Sects of Islam

La ilaha illlal la, Muhammahd dur rasool Allah.

If a person believe in oneness of Allah and finality of prophet Muhammad(saw), then by definition he/she is muslim.

adding new prophet after Prophet Muhammad(saw) is actually crating a new sect.

[shardmanny]

Re: Sects of Islam

adding new prophet after Prophet Muhammad(saw) is actually crating a new sect.

what if its done x12?

[Nussairee]

Re: Sects of Islam

Thank you brother Nussairee – That’s the response I was looking forward from you. I am sure that you have Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah in mind. See, there is no consistency here.

Dear brother Ibn Sadique......u r trying to emply logical deduction to judge as shaqiyah and I like that and we can sure come to it however I did request u to not jump forward in time.........may b there is something u r not comfortable discussing or I give u benefit of the doubt that u r not aware of some of the facts.......what was Imam Ali's stance abt the coup of Saqeefa? what was Fatima Zahra's opinion abt her fathers inheritence and the confisication of it against the commands of Quran and the Prophet saww? in Sahi Muslim u can find Umar saying that Imam Ali considered Abu bakr "liar, treacherous and dishonest".........lets look at these first and then I can show u occasions from that time forward ......

btw, if anybody attributes syed Radi for "imagining" as shaqiyah then that tells u abt the level of ignorance of the fools.......the sources of the content have been traced to earlier works pre-dating the complier syed radi........and very quickly, as for Imam "sounding" helpless in shaqshaqiya.......well, that is due to ur own ignorance or perhaps ur inability to understand....otherwise nahjul balagha as a whole and shaqshaqiya in particular are considered the lingual and expressive masterpieces in arabic language taught at the classic schools of Arabic learning.......check with sheikh ninowy.....

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Sects of Islam

@Nussairee

Dear brother Ibn Sadique…u r trying to emply logical deduction to judge as shaqiyah and I like that and we can sure come to it however I did request u to not jump forward in time…may b there is something u r not comfortable discussing or I give u benefit of the doubt that u r not aware of some of the facts…what was Imam Ali’s stance abt the coup of Saqeefa?

My dear brother Nussairee – I am not implying anything out of logic – refer to my post in another thread which** brother Shardmanny** has linked in his post 41 on this very page. It is letter 6 of Nahjul Balagha.

@Ibn_Sadique

Now let’s consider Letter 6 of Nahjul Balagha

Shia Websites have very deliberately added their own words for their Imam when translating Letter 6 of Nahjul balagha – this is criminal and they have done this without any fear of Allah (swt).

Following is from renowned Shia Site

*Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was (supposed to be) limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and (it was also supposed that) whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

*Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 6

I have highlighted and bracketed the interpolated words deliberately attributed to Hz. Ali (ra).

**Correct translation **

Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.

Note:
(supposed to be)
(it was also supposed that)

This is very serious, the above words were never uttered by the pious Imam (ra). With what audacity and daring have the people at the Shia Site put the words in their Imam’s mouth just to score some cheap points thus misleading the people. The above words have been interpolated into the letter.

(Interpolation: To change or falsify (a text) by introducing new or incorrect material.)

If you don’t believe me then read the following – Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha in Arabic – very words that Hz. Ali (ra) uttered! This is a Shia Site.

ومن كتاب له(عليه السلام)
إلى معاوية

 إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاَْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى. 

http://www.islamology.com/Resources/Nahj_Imam/Letters/book/06.htm

Read the last 3 words in the part in the top line on the left and then beginning of words from right on the second line (I could not highlight the words) I have tried to Transliterate

Fa innej’maoohu alaa rajalun wasamawahoo Imaman Kana dhalikallhu radiyunn.

So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.

Note that Hz. Ali (ra) has chosen the word Imam!

You must agree that Hz. Ali ( was very eloquent and expert in Arabic language and that he chose his words very judiciously and with great care.

To sum it up Hz. Ali (ra) considered the selection of Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all) was “as per approval and pleasure of Allah”.

Before we can move on any further, Please confirm with any Arab person that you know to confirm that Letter 58 in Arabic does NOT have following words: (supposed to be) (it was also supposed that).

Let’s settle this issue. It is extremely important that we do this. And will see that it will benefit you too.

May be some person who knows a bit of Arabic can confirm this. **[Brother Psyah **can you help here, please?]

Take Note:

Hz. Ali (ra) states:

1. Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them.
2. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance
3. and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it
4. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.
5. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their IMAM, then it is with the pleasure of Allah
6. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.
7. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.

Appointments of Hzs. Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (May Allah be pleased with them all) was the right of Muhajirs and the Ansars AND ALLAH (SWT) WAS PLEASED WITH THAT.

1. No. 3 Above Hz. Ali (ra) states “anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it” – We all know that Hz. Ali (ra) was absent from the shura.

Now compare this with Sermon 3 and try to explain. If Allah (swt) was pleased with appointments of first 3 Khalifs by Muhajirs and the Ansar the what’s the reason with Sermon 3?

You haven’t addressed the following from from previous post:

@Ibn_Sadique

Also historical events and relationship of Imam Ali (ra) with Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra) negates the above sermon.

Leaving everything aside, Hz. Ali married Abu Bakr (ra) widow and brought up his (Abu Bakr’s) son as his own!!!

Hz. Ali (ra) married his own second daughter Umm Kulthum to Hz. Umar bin Khattab (ra)!!!

This debunks Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah . Think about this.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Sects of Islam

what was Fatima Zahra's opinion abt her fathers inheritence and the confisication of it against the commands of Quran and the Prophet saww? in Sahi Muslim u can find Umar saying that Imam Ali considered Abu bakr "liar, treacherous and dishonest".........lets look at these first and then I can show u occasions from that time forward ......

Read the full hadith and then decide – Fadak issue? Did Hz. Ali (ra) restore the Fadak to his family when in power? A lot has been said about this all over the place.

btw, if anybody attributes syed Radi for "imagining" as shaqiyah then that tells u abt the level of ignorance of the fools.......the sources of the content have been traced to earlier works pre-dating the complier syed radi........and very quickly, as for Imam "sounding" helpless in shaqshaqiya.......well, that is due to ur own ignorance or perhaps ur inability to understand....otherwise nahjul balagha as a whole and shaqshaqiya in particular are considered the lingual and expressive masterpieces in arabic language taught at the classic schools of Arabic learning.......check with sheikh ninowy.....

sheikh ninowy is a Sayeed from progeny of Hz.Ali and Hz. Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with them both) – Surely he will appreciate the quality and brilliance/majesty of the language used but will never agree with the content/slant of Sermon.