Sects of Islam

Re: Sects of Islam

Assalam u alaikum brothers and sisters (if there are any on the thread).

As we know that Islam has many sects and the follower of each sect considers themselves to be the true followers and the rest as maybe not so good (or kaafir or whatever). To prove our points we have to try to gather information from history books which may or may not be accurate. As we stand today can we really declare what we believe in to be right and the rest to be not so good, isnt this something that Allah will have to decide. If instead of probing so much and basically dissing other sects I think if we follow Quran/hadith and follow the basic Haqooq ullah and Haqooq ul ibad wouldnt that be better for us? I think we should do our research but not try to judge others by ourselves, that would be something that Allah will do. We ourselves dont have the guarantee that we are on the right path. But at least our basics should be right and then we should leave the rest to the authority who would judge all of us.

Re: Sects of Islam

There is no love of RasoolAllah (SAW) as high as the love of those who remember him, his family and those who he (SAW) loved - his companions as well.

Your main argument of family being the basis is not even followed, the four caliphs were all part of this family and closeness to him (SAW).

Being a Shadhili, I trace back my spiritual lineage to Sayyidina Ali(RA), so don’t make the mistake that Sunnis are heedless of the Syed family, we respect members of the household, but we also say the members of the household have a greater test too, if their members fail to be pious then their judgement will be harsher too. So says my Shaykh who is a Hassani …

Re: Sects of Islam

How many times should I repeat:

Apna aqeeda chhoro nain, dosron ka aqeeda chhedo nahin.

Re: Sects of Islam

The fact that many Shi'a say that 'Ali(AS) should have been the successor is a horrible accusation on Ali (RA) to have accepted the Caliphate of not one but three Caliphs ... What sort of love is that?

Ali (RA) was the Lion of Allah ... If anything should have happened ... I'm sure Ali (RA) would have made sure of it. The fact is he (RA) did make sure of it, when he accepted the Caliphate of the three (RA) before him.

This is true love of the family of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) ...

The fact is that I can believe there may have been some individuals who thought certain things, they were powerless at the time to say anything ... Through a systematic weakening due to the expansion and other factors, such as khawarij, Jews and Christian influences, the history books were re-written ... The caliphates cannot be denied ... and if Islam was not rigorously referenced then for sure people would deny the history that did take place ...but they had to resort to saying "should have" instead.

This started happening about 20 years after ... Not straight away ... But I can accept there may have been tensions in the heart not of the family, but of certain individuals who were distanced from the Sahabah.

Re: Sects of Islam

Baat ye hai, ke authentic Shi'a hai kon? I feel all Muslims must have been quite closely resembling one another at the time of the rift ... And then divergence took place ... Many Sunnis totally deny the importance of the family and at the same time most if not all Sh'ia deny the right of elective leadership, which is established as a Sunnah. I believe both have their place ...

Re: Sects of Islam

salam alaikum

im not aware of any rift which caused shiaism

the initial shia were group and not a sect. the origin of the kufri theology has come from heresay, and a mindset which does not mind telling lies upon Allah and then taking them lies as religion.

Re: Sects of Islam

Well he makes quite many elementary mistakes in the video you posted before. I read some of his articles and his main references seem to be from secondary sources like Western encyclopedias that do not exactly carry much water.

Re: Sects of Islam

I agree with your sentiments but we can not turn our eyes away from the reality. Quran encourages pondering and questioning and why not when the authenticity of the Book itself depended on rational proof. You are correct that each sect considers itself to represent the truth and that is what the books authored by the scholars of each sect will imply. However actual distinctions can be made when rational proofs, questioning, discussions, and healthy debates enter the picture.

Re: Sects of Islam

I take it for the first two caliphs you're saying that because the Prophet married their daughters? Do you realize then that by that standard, Abu Sufyan would thus be part of the Ahl al-Bayt?

I take that you are quite familiar with Quran and Hadiths. Quran obviously places great emphasis on maintaining blood relations and being kind to them and paying their dues and so on. That is a general rule and applies to every believer. However when the term Ahl al-Bayt is mentioned then the idea is of the chosen family members who have an elevated position above the rest of the faithful, similar to the position of the early Prophets highlighted all over by Quran. If you wish then I can go in more details and provide you references from Quran but this concept is quite well understood by scholars of all schools in Islam. You may refer to hadiths in your books where usually there is a separate chapter dedicated to the selected few members of the household of Rasool Allah saw. I use the word 'selected' before because not everyone in family of Prophets becomes a spiritual heir double ch and as you pointed God promises double chastiment and punishment for members who go against God such as paternal uncle of Rasool Allah, Abu Lahab.

Love and respect is not subjective to the school one follows, I agree, and we are not discussing that. But two people can not be right at the same time specially if both of them come to war with each other. And what makes it more is serious of God and his apostle has ordered you to love and follow one of them.

Re: Sects of Islam

Ali is the successor of the Rasool Allah. There is mountain load of evidence for it much of which Hazrat Ali present himself. You should study this more. Abu Bakr never claimed or provided solid religious proof for his caliphate. Instead arguments made in his favor were mainly based on old customs and tribal mentality.

Islamic and secular sources both will tell you that Ali did not accept Abu Bakr taking charge. They will also tell you why he refrained from force to claim his rights, including his wife's who was also wronged by the new ruler.

Bro, read primary books of history and not the re-written glossed over versions. Many of the staunches, the earliest companions, including the tribe of Rasool Allah, Bani Hashim, did not acknowledge Abu Bakr. Please inquire about names and references if you are interested.

Re: Sects of Islam

I would really like to see and examine the evidence of elective leadership from Quran and Sunnah.

Re: Sects of Islam

what is the shia position?

Re: Sects of Islam

Anyways I dont see these discussions lead to anywhere, people have mostly made up their mind. By trying to prove who is right or wrong in these matters we have the situation which is in Pakistan right now. When we will die the angels wont ask us if we were shias or sunnis, we will be asked our religion and other basic things. I feel that in this discussion we leave the basics far behind. Based upon historical books I'll be careful in condemning figures who were held in high esteem by the Prophet (Sallah u alaihi wassalam), I think we should leave that and judging other sects to Allah. Anyways anything that rocks the boats of others.

Re: Sects of Islam

Dear muqawwee, you stance if I may explain seems not very useful because it by its very nature seems self destructive. Why? It is because the world does not work that way. Human history is full of struggles for survival. Unless you fight for what you think is right things are not going to get better for you no matter what you try to do to stop this struggle for survival.

Because humanity is split and each group is struggling against the other therefore it is not possible for us not to be part of the side that struggles for our side as opposed to all other sides.

Since we must struggle because we have no choice therefore the real question is, what to struggle for? This is where islam comes handy because struggling for islam=peace for humanity has to be the ultimate goal that will benefit humanity as a whole.

This means getting everyone of us to start thinking so that we could see what is wrong with us so that we could get ourselves rid of that wrong and see what is right with us so that we could promote that right and gain support for our ideas. In so doing we will help each other become aware of our wrongs and rights and that will help us get rid of harmful and destructive divisions from among us.

This is the way to go ie get to know the right way and promote it till all are aware of it and come together to live as one.

So called muslims are not reading the quran in the right context and that is why we have problems between us. We do not think the quran is manifesto and constitution of islam for humanity to base their humanity upon. Once we realise this and follow it we will no longer be divided.

Re: Sects of Islam

Would it be right for me to say that you might be wasting your time moderating the 'World Affairs' section on this forum? after all, whatever's aught to happen will happen anyway regardless of people typing about it online or not?
Situation in Pakistan is a result of corrupt and inept politicians and leaders. Sir, it is not because of inter-sect discussions between Muslims because such exchange of views takes place, with same passion and vigour, within almost every single idealogy under the sky. And they usually do not result in somebody taking out a gun shooting down the opponent.
In your opinion, what basic things exactly will we be asked for when we die? could one of them be if we stood with the oppressors or the oppressed during our lives? or if we reocgnized the false Imam from the rightful Imam? does Quran not say that on day of judgement everybody will be called with their Imams and some 'Imams' of this world will be leading their followers to the hell?
What about the people who did injustice with the people held in high esteem by Rasool Allah saw? lets say to the person whom Rasool Allah had called his own flesh and hurting whom would be akin to hurting Rasool and thus displeasing Allah Himself?

A few lines of Mirza Ghalib~

Ajab itefaaq kay ek dushman e deen Ali say aa kay laray or 'ijtehad' kahein os ko
Yazid ko tha na paya is qabil, bura na maneyeh agar bura kahein os ko

Re: Sects of Islam

Brother references needed for the bolded part.I do not know any mainstream ahlussunnah who deny the importance of ahl ul bayt(atleast people i know dont have this aqeedah).

Re: Sects of Islam

whoever tht guy might b.....here is the quoted letter in its entirety....let me know wht part of the letter u wish to discuss....

"Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

O Mu'awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-aggrandzement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like. "

Re: Sects of Islam

some of these letters r really interesting read like this letter from Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (the son of Abu Bakr, the first "caliph") to Muawiya and the reponse of Muawiya.....

From Muhammad son of Abu Bakr to the sinner Mu`awiyah son of Sakhr:

Peace of Allah unto those who obey Him from one who is peaceful to whoever accepts only Allah as his Master.

In His Omnipotence, Greatness, Power and Might, Allah did not create the creation in vain, nor due to a weakness in Him, nor to a need to what He creates. Rather, He created His beings so that they may worship him. He let some of them sin while keeping others on the right guidance. Some of them He left to suffer, and to some He granted happiness. Then He knowingly chose from them Muhammad to be the sole bearer of His Message. He selected him to receive His revelation and entrusted him to carry out His commandments. He sent him as His Messenger, bearer of glad tidings, and warner, to testify to the divine Books which were revealed before his time, and to guide people to uphold His injunctions. So he invited people to accept his mission through wisdom and beautiful exhortation. The first to respond positively to his call, to obey him, to believe in him, to put his all at his disposal, and to be a Muslim, was his brother and cousin Ali ibn Abu Talib. He believed him with regard to the knowledge of the unknown; he preferred him over everyone else he loved; he protected him with his own life; he solaced him in every precarious situation; he fought those whom he had fought and sought peace with those to whom he was peaceful. He never fled when death seemed imminent out of his love for his life; he came out as one unmatched in prowess; nobody could ever come close to what he undertook.

I saw how you tried to reach his lofty status, though you are what you are, while he is the one who stood out above the rest as the foremost in the doing of anything good and in embracing Islam. His conviction was most sincere, his offspring the best among all people, his wife the best of all women, whose cousin was the very best, whose brother traded his life on the Day of Mu'ta for the Pleasure of Allah, whose uncle is the master of martyrs on the Day of Uhud, whose father defended the Messenger of Allah and his mission, whereas you are the accursed and the son of the accursed. You and your father have never ceased plotting to undermine the religion of Allah, trying, both of you, to put out the light of Allah, rallying others behind you, spending your wealth and seeking the support of other tribes.

Thus did your father die, and in his footsteps are you now following. Those who testify against you are the very ones whom you seek to please, while those who resort to you are the pariahs from the remnants of parties, the leaders of hypocrisy, those who are the foremost in dissenting from the Messenger of Allah. Those who testify for Ali, though his virtues are quite obvious and merits eternal, are his supporters whom Allah, the Most Exalted One, mentioned and praised in the Qur'an over all others from the Muhajirs and the Ansars: they are with him battalions and valiant defenders, protecting him with their words, always ready to spill their blood to protect his, finding the truth in following him and perdition in opposing him.

Woe unto you! How dare you set yourself as an equal to Ali while he is the heir of the Messenger of Allah, his wasi, the father of his offspring, the first among the people to follow him, the very closest to him? He shares with him his secrets; he unfolds his affairs before him, while you are his enemy and the son of his enemy!

So enjoy your life as long as you can through the means of your falsehood, and let the son of al-As support your sinning, for your end seems to have come close, and your mischief seems to be waning: soon you will come to know who is to receive the lofty rewards!

And be informed that you are plotting against your own Lord Whose Might you do not fear, from achieving Whose Mercy you have despaired, and He will soon take you by surprise while you remain in the deluge of your conceit. And peace be with whoever follows the right guidance.

References:

Jamharat Rasaail al-Arab, Vol. 1, p. 475.
Al-Mas`udi, Muruj al-Dhahab, Vol. 2, p. 59.
Ibn Abul-Hadid, Sharh Nahjul Balagha, Vol. 1, p. 283.

Here is the responce from muawiya

From Mu`awiyah son of Sakhr to the one who faults his own father, Muhammad son of Abu Bakr:

Peace unto those who obey Allah.

I have received your letter wherein you state what Allah has indicated of His Greatness, Might, and Omnipotence, and what He bestowed upon the Messenger of Allah, in addition to a great deal of talk which you authored to your own liking and which faults you and is offensive to your father.

In it you stated the merits of the son of Abu Talib and his age-old feats and kinship to the Messenger of Allah, his having supported and solaced the Prophet in each and every precarious and perilous situation. Your argument against me was produced by you praising someone else rather than demonstrating your own merits; so, you should praise the Lord Who has deprived you of such merits and bestowed them upon someone else.

I and your father used, during the life-time of our Prophet, to recognize the merits of Abu Talib's son, and the fact that his feats were greater than ours. When Allah chose for His Prophet (s) that which He has with him, completing His promise to him, permitting his mission to supersede that of all others, making his argument the uppermost, Allah caused him (blessings of Allah be upon him) to die. Your father and his Farooq were the first to snatch his right away from him and dispute with him regarding what rightfully belonged to him. This is something which they both agreed upon and for which they coordinated their efforts. Then they invited him to swear the oath of allegiance to them, but he slackened and was hesitant, so they harbored evil intentions against him and plotted to kill him. He, therefore, swore the oath of allegiance to them later on and yielded. Then their third person, Uthman, stood up to follow their guidance and walk in their footsteps, whereupon you and your friend faulted him for doing so. You did so to the extent that [you caused] even those who went to extremes in sinning to covet his post. You both harbored evil intentions against him till you achieved your common goal.

So be on your guard, O son of Abu Bakr, for you will see the evil of your affair. And do measure your span according to your own measure: you will then neither equal nor parallel one whose vision weighs as much as a mountain. Do not incline to overpower him, for even the most far-sighted person cannot realize the limits of his patience.

It was your father who paved for him what he paved, building his domain. If our condition is sound, your father is the first to receive credit for it, but if it is oppression, then your father went to extremes in oppressing, and we all are his accomplices: It was his guidance that we followed and whose conduct we emulated. Had it not been for what your father had done, we would not have disputed with the son of Abu Talib, and we would have surrendered to him. But we found your father doing so before us; therefore, we followed his example and emulated his deeds. Find fault with your father, then, for what he did, or refrain, and peace be with whoever returns to his senses, to the right guidance, and who repents.

References:

Jamharat Rasaail al-Arab, Vol. 1, p. 477.
Al-Mas`udi, Muruj al-Dhahab, Vol. 2, p. 60.
Ibn Abul-Hadid, Sharh Nahjul Balagha, Vol. 1, p. 284.

Re: Sects of Islam

wt is authenticity of these letters?

Re: Sects of Islam

I know that 2nd and 3rd references r the books of Mutazile ulema.....