Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

**Sady **

This was not directed towards you :flower2:- I expect recriminations from some quarters

42

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Ibn Sadique,

Thanks. That’s nice to know.

BTW, I read your detailed post above and it is very wise as always. In the last part quoted below, who is Ali bin Abu-Talib (r.a.) that you have referred to please?:

43

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Sady I think your mind has still has not cleared from Vroom-Attack syndrome!!!!! Hz. Ali bin Abu-Talib (r.a.) is the cousin and son-in-law of the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and the fourth righteous Khaleef. Once you have recovered from Vroom attack you will know that you always knew Hz. Ali bin Abu-Talib (r.a.)

44

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Im trying Im trying:music::mudhosh::teary3:

I did think you were referring to the prophet PBUH’s cousin, son in law and the last caliph Ali RA. But I didnt know that he was the son of ABU TALIB RA. That’s why I got confused. Anyway, thanks for your kind understanding :bummer::rotfl::hug:

45

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

**Mr. Popat **– You have accepted the right of jamat e ahmadiyya to reject any deviants from Ahmadiyyat and have kicked them out of the fold of Ahmadiyyat because “They differ in the core beliefs of ahmadiyya movement”.

Now you must accept in the same spirit the right of Muslims to reject Ahmadiyyat as deviancy because it differs in the core beliefs of Islam.

Sorry, your rejects don’t come part of ‘us’. Ahmadiyyat itself is a complete reject off-shoot of Islam.

Let’s apply your simple rules

  1. With absolute certainty and confidence – and the rest 72 are deviants with varying degrees

  2. Please try to google ‘the fastest growing religion’ and you will come to know who has the Nusrah of Allah Almighty.

Even after more than a century your so-called khaleefahs have not established shariyah and are living under and abiding by the rules of British State whose head, the Queen, is the Head of Church of England. The very Church that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had claimed to have destroyed. Very Ironic right? If your Jamaat had Nusrah from Allah Almighty your ‘Khalaafat’ would have been established in the vicinity of Islamic lands. Allah Almighty in His Wisdom has kept your far away from the holy lands. Why does not the Nusrah from Allah Almighty help your leaders perform Hajj? Ahmadis who perform Hajj do so pretending to be Muslims and never as Ahmadis, right?

  1. Ahmadiyyat faith solely rests on the ‘wahi’ claimed to have been received by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. He has mis-interpreted Quran in light of his own ‘wahi’ and has rejected most of hadith material. See below the quotation from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - how vainly he rejects ahadith which didn’t fit in with his agenda.

"The basis for my claims is not Hadiths but Quran and my own revelation; in support we also cite those Hadiths which do not contradict my revelation. All the rest of Hadiths, I throw them away like a waste paper."(Zamima Nuzoole Maseeh, Roohani Khazain vol 19 p.140)

So how could Jamaat Ahmadiyyat’s beliefs could be based on Quran, Sunnah and hadith in light of above quotation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani?

  1. Your Jamaat leaders cannot be following the foot-steps of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Blessed Companions (may Allah Almighty be pleased with them all) because your leaders lie blatantly without fear of Allah Almighty – Just on Ahmadi population – some of your leaders claim 220 million followers, 200 million, 170 million and 70 million whereas the true figure is around 10 to 20 million.

We have gone over this before on the very board with evidence.

See for yourself – Population Fraud

Qadiani Population Lies - Exposing Ahmadiyya Cult

Factual Worldwide Ahmadi population

Ahmadiyya by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If your leaders resort to lying about population they will resort to lie about anything.

  1. What you to say now? I suppose next step is to approach the Moderators to close this thread, right?
46

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

I have no problem with that :)

47

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

From my understanding and whatever knowledge I have, figure 73 does not actually mean number 73 (numerically) but it means a large number. 73 Muslim sects compared to 72 Christian sects and 71 Jew sects only mean, larger number of sects in Muslims compared to Jews or Christians. Similarly, when it is said that all sects would be in hell fire except one (72 would be in hell fire), it does not literally means sectarian division where all would go to hell fire except one, but it means all Muslims would go to hell fire except one (one group among many) who would be on the teaching of prophet (SAW) and Quran… and people of that saved sect or group can be found in every Muslim sect/group.

According to teaching of Quran, as far as hell fire and faith is concerned, only requirement is not to associate anyone equal to Allah, or believe on power from any source other than Allah, or not to have Illah other than Allah … and here it is nothing to do with accusations of one on others, but open acceptance of a person that he/she believes on more than one Illah (or person accepting that the person is mushrik).

As far as I know, all who are considered as sects in Islam, believe that there is one Allah and Prophet (SAW) is messenger of Allah. All follow Sunnah of Prophet (SAW), and all claim (citing their interpretations of Quran and hadith, citing hadiths that may or may not be acceptable to others, or whatever) that they are rightly guided sect, so for them (any particular sect) to go to hell fire because of their beliefs or faiths is ridiculous assumption.

Rest of reasons for a person going to hell fire are all dependent on ways human interacts between each other, or how one treats other humans. One of the major portions of Quran is on this subject and Quran is very clear about it too. Teaching of Prophet (SAW) and human unbiased logic also supports that biggest human sin is human crime against other humans, especially, one based on personal beliefs and biases.

When Allah created Adam (AS) and declared that he would make him Khalifa on earth, what Angels mentioned about humans when questioning the Khilafat of humans on earth is same … that this creation would create fitna on earth, and would fight and kill each other.

Teaching given by Quran and Prophet (SAW) is: Judgment of individual souls’ belief and neyat related to his actions are prerogative of Allah alone (Haq of Allah). Humans have no right to judge faith, faith related intentions or beliefs of other humans. Only thing we should be worried about is our own beliefs and deeds (our Iman and Amaal). We can share our beliefs with others, even preach them nicely (without hurting them), but should not try to enforce or victimize others on basis of beliefs.

Unfortunately, most humans never think that what they believe is due to influences in their life and what others believe is due to influences in life of others. So, people with two different beliefs would always think that others are wrong (misguided) and they are right (also mentioned in Quran beautifully in ayah 6:108 … that all think what they believe is correct, so one should not abuse others on belief, even what other worship). Anyhow, if any group (or individual) would start enforcing, victimizing or using violence on basis of belief differences, than they (perpetrators) would only create ‘fitna’ and would go to hell fire

Such enforcement, victimization and violence only happens when a group of people, could be belonging to any sect or religion … Muslims and non-Muslims alike, starts thinking that they would suppress others using force, with mind-set that they are stronger than others or more holy than others, and stronger or their holy beliefs should prevail. That in itself is sin enough for perpetrators to burn in hell fire forever. Allah is the strongest and hates those who consider themselves stronger or more holy, and people they victimize as weaker or unholy than them, and thus hell fire would be punishment for perpetrators.

Same is true with a section of Muslims belonging to all (literally all) groups/sects, some are more into it than others. They not only judge beliefs, intentions, and faiths of others but act on that basis with enforcement, victimization, violence and even killing … or … would like to act if they had power, authority, and opportunity. In other words, try to become God (without even knowing or realizing), and thus would burn in fire.

On the other hand, we also have Muslims (a large section of Muslim population) in all (literally all) groups/sects who not only do not judge others, but abhor enforcement, victimization, violence and killing on basis of beliefs, faiths or sectarian differences, and would not do that even if they have power, position and opportunity to do that. **It is this ‘one sect’ or section of Muslim population **(people who call themselves Muslim and could belong to any group/sect) who would be safe sect.

48

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

The reason why majority of Muslim declare Ahmadis non-muslim is because of their belief on Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) to be the same Messiah, and give him the status of an ummati nabi.
Any so called ahmadi sect who do not believe in Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as)'s ummati nabuwat cannot be part of Jamaat e ahmadiyya.
Muslims have no problem anyone calling anyone saint/peer/waliullah etc. They do NOT consider anyone kafir simply because they consider someone to be a waliullah. However, they have problem with anyone believing someone to be a prophet.

Therefore, any sect from ahmadiyya jamaat who do not accept Promised Messiah(as) to be an ummati nabi becomes part of you. No one of you will declare that person non-muslim.
Ahmadiyya jamaat on the other hand accept Promised Messiah and accept his ummati nabuwat in accordance to Quran and ahadith. Orthodox Muslims have problem with this group of ahmadiyyat; not any other kind. Hope that answers your question.

Like I said before, Jamaat e ahmadiyya stands alone when you analyze the hadith of Holy Prophet PBUH about 73 and 1.

We as jamaat e ahmadiyya profess that we are that one jamaat, and everyone else is in the 73 groups. If you listen to your scholars, they too claim that ‘every’ sect of Muslim has declared Ahmadiyya jamat to be out of Islam.
You cannot be in that 73 group and still be calling yourself that 1 jamaat.
Also keep in mind the words of Huzur PBUH when he said that jamaat will be the one who will be following me and my sahabah’s footsteps.
Like Prophet PBUH and Sahabah(ra)…Who is being stopped from praying? Like Prophet PBUH and sahaba(ra).. who is being stopped from doing tableegh? Who is being stopped from calling themselves Muslims?
Who are being killed simply because they claim they’re Muslims? Which sect of people are in jail because they acted like Muslims?

49

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Brother **Saleem **

We must not use pure speculation try to interpret hadith or the sayings of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) If the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said 73 we must accept it as 73 – otherwise the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would have used the words “a large number” – But he did not so we should leave it there.
You are further guilty of misinterpreting the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) by sheer personal speculation.
Please read the hadith again!

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
“The Jews split into seventy-one sects; one will be in Paradise (i.e., those who followed Moses) and seventy will be in the Fire. The Christians split into seventy-two sects; seventy-one will be in the Fire and one will be in Paradise (i.e., those who followed Jesus). And by the One in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, this Ummah (nation) of mine will split into seventy-three sects; one will be in Paradise and seventy-two will be in the Fire. It was asked, “Who are they, O Messenger of Allah?” He (peace be upon him) said, “Al-Jama’ah (i.e., the group which adheres steadfastly to the way of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and his Companions).” And in another narration: ” (Those who follow) what I and my Companions are following.” - [reported by at-Tirmidhee (no. 2643)

Note:

  1. Ummah will split into 73 sects
  2. One will be in Paradise
  3. seventy-two will be in the Fire

Now compare how drastically you are misinterpreting the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) words.

Now read the complimentary hadith on the same theme:

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said “The Jews split into 71 groups; one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 groups; 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose Power is the life of Muhammad, without doubt, my Ummah will be divided into 73 groups. Only one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.”
When asked which group will be on the right path, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) replied, “The main (al-Jama’ah) body of the Muslims.” [Ibne Majah Kitab al-Fitan]

When asked which group will be on the right path, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) replied, “The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunnah and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims.” [Tirmizi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]

Can you see how wrongly you are interpreting the sayings of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

My advice you is to go and take some serious guidance from a good scholar of your choice. And must repent unless you are a free thinker and make your own deductions.

Again you are trying to be a ‘goody goody’ fellow and ignoring the words of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

Please read the hadith again

Note that the Saved Sect

  1. “The main (al-Jama’ah) body of the Muslims.”

  2. “will be the group which follows my Sunnah and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims.”

  3. “the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority)"

  4. "Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims!”

  5. “and firmly remain with the largest and most well-known group of Muslims!"

  6. “from the largest group of Muslims”

Now do you see that your interpretation in completely against what the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) sayings!!!

The only ridiculous matter here is your personal assumptions!

And read further what Allah Almighty answered: “I know what you do not know.”

Behold, your Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Will You place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? - while we do celebrate Your praises and glorify Your holy (name)?” He said: “I know what you do not know.” [2: Al-Baqara-30]

You are wrong again my friend on the highlighted part.

Matters of heart and intention only known to Allah Almighty alone. In this world we go by what is apparent.

Read the following hadith and saying of Hz. `Umar bin Al-Khattab (May Allah be pleased with him)

Imam Al-Nawawi’s Riyad-us-Saliheen Chapter 49

** Making Judgment of people keeping in view their evident actions and leaving their hidden Actions to Allah (swt)**

*Abdullah bin Utbah bin Masud reported: I heard Umar bin Al-Khattab (May Allah be pleased with him) reported saying: "In the lifetime of Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) some people were called to account through Revelation. Now Revelation has discontinued and we shall judge you by your apparent acts. Whoever displays to us good, we shall grant him peace and security, and treat him as a near one. We have nothing to do with his insight. Allah will call him to account for that. But whosoever shows evil to us, we shall not grant him security nor shall we believe him, even if he professed that his intention is good.‘’ *Saheeh Al-Bukhari].

This Hadith also proves that the injunctions go with the apparent acts of a person and not with will and intention. It also indicates that a good intention does not waive the Qisas and establishing the justice.

Making Judgment of people keeping in view their evident actions and leaving their hidden Actions to Allah (swt)

Brother Saleem Suppose you see a bird walking around and has no label that says ‘duck’. But the bird looks like a duck. Also, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck. Surely you reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, unknown to you this duck in its heart of hearts thinks and has the intention of being of a peacock.

We humans judge with what is apparent and leave the intentions to Allah Almighty as this is in His domain.

Agree with you cent percent.

Below I am quoting the beautiful ayah mentioned by you. You must note the last sentence – Allah Almighty will judge them on their actions and beliefs.

And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did.B] [Quran 6:108]

Read the following ayah too – There is a Way on Truth and Way on Error

There is no compulsion in religion; TRULY THE RIGHT WAY HAS BECOME CLEARLY DISTINCT FROM ERROR; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. [Quran Surah Baqara :256]

We are commanded by Allah Almighty to invite the mankind to the Right way – of course with “wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better”.

“Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining al-ma`roof and forbidding al-Munkar And it is they who are successful.” **(Quran, Aal Imraan: 104)
**
“Invite to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.” (Quran, an-Nahl: 125)

Truely, The Religion With Allah Is Islam." (Holy Qur’an Al-an-A’naam:19)

50

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Peace **Mr.Popat **Firstly, it is not the majority but ALL Muslims declare Ahmadis as non-Muslim!

All Muslims believe that the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is the LAST and FINAL Prophet from Allah Almighty. There will be no prophets in any form in any description (Ummati, Shadow, deputy etc. etc)

All Muslims believe that anyone who claims to a (Ummati, Shadow, deputy etc. etc) prophet is a Kaffir and out of pale of Islam.

All Muslims believe that anyone who takes this false prophet to be waliullah or a saint is also a kaffir.

There is ample evidence in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani’s sayings and writings with regards to his claims for him being a prophet and much more!

So keep your rejects to yourself.

Hope that answers your false observations!

Mr. Popat the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the ahadith said that his Ummah will be divided in 73 sects – The Saved sect will be following him and his Blessed Companions (may Allah Almighty be pleased with them all) and will be a great Majority!

So if there was any remotest chance that Ahmadiyya jamat is part of Ummah of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), WHICH FOR CERTAINTY it is not, it gets disqualified being the SAVED sect as being a tiniest minority – less than 1 percent!!!

Similitude of Ahmadiyya jamat with regards to the Ummah of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is that Ummah of the false prophet Musaylimah the liar. And of those who built Masjid al-Dirar (Masjid-e-Zirrar) see the relevant ayahs below:

*And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear: We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars. * **[Surah at Tawba: 107]
**

Never stand in it; certainly a masjid founded on piety from the very first day is more deserving that you should stand in it; in it are men who love that they should be purified; and Allah loves those who purify themselves. [Surah at Tawba: 108]

Is he, therefore, better who lays his foundation on fear of Allah and (His) good pleasure, or he who lays his foundation on the edge of a cracking hollowed bank, so it broke down with him into the fire of hell; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.** [Surah at Tawba: 109]**

These people were stopped from praying, doing tableegh and calling themselves Muslims. Think about it. In same the vein as you these they too would be playing the persecuted victims

Bigboi’s signature says it all: Persecution is a Sign of Truth

Playing the victim

51

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Brother ibn Saddique, read your post. I still believe what I wrote is right. Anyhow, if all had believed same, than world would have been easy place to live. :slight_smile:

Most what you wrote I read them many times over years and what I understood (after reading those hadiths) is still same what I wrote in my post. Obviously you understand things differently, and there is no better way to discuss anything than question what other understands, hence, let me ask you first set of questions:

Since the belief I have or sect I follow (Sunni/Barelvi/sufi … or … Sunnah-wal-Jamah) has never changed over ages from time of Prophet (SAW), and our belief and practices were always belief and practices of majority, and we consider ourself as Al-Jammah of Muslim Ummah, than are we (Sunni/Barelvi/Sufi) only people of paradise?

And all recent variants like Wahabi (Salafi, Ahle-hadith) that started in 18[SUP]th[/SUP] century from Duriya/Riyadh (Najd), Deobandis that started in 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century from Deoband (UP), and Tableeghi-jamaatis that started in 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century from Mewat (Haryana/Rajasthan), whom we Muslims (people of Al-Jammah) believe are deviated from Islam and are in minority deviant sects, are all people of fire?

In other words, do you mean to say that … main and largest body of Muslims who are in overwhelming majority (Al-jammah) in Muslim Ummah, claim themselves Sunni/Barelvi/Sufi, celebrate Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi, visit Mazars, Celebrate Urs, believe that Prophet (SAW) and saints are waseela through whom Allah gives, believe that we can ask help from people who left this world as they can help (obviously with permission of Allah), etc … claim that all what they believe and practice are from Prophet (SAW) and Sahabas (RA) passing to them from generation to generation, have continuity in their beliefs and practices since earliest Islamic ear, are the only one who will go to Jannah and rest who claim that they are Muslims but do not follow what majority (Sunni/Barelvi/Sufi) claims are ways of Prophet (SAW) and Sahabas (RA), like Wahabis (Ahle-hadith, Salafis), Deobandis, Tableeghis, etc … are going to burn in hell?

52

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Dear Brother Saleem :salam2:

I thank you for the softness in your response – much appreciated.

You are so right brother when you said that: “if all had believed same, than world would have been easy place to live.”

First of all I want clear something very important.

We must understand the why the why this terminology ‘Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamma’ came about – as this was not used in the time of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

The following hadith attests that the first three generations are the ones to be followed in all matters of Din.

*“The best of mankind is my generation, then those that follow them and then those that follow them. Then there shall come a people after them who will become avaricious, who will love gluttony, and who will give witness before they are asked for it.” * [Tirmidhî, Sahîh]

As foretold by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) after the first three generation deviant beliefs started to infiltrate Islamic pristine beliefs and practices likes of Al-Mu’tazilah, Ahlul tashayyu (Shia), Al-Mushabbihah, Al-Jahmiyyah, Al-Jabriyyah, Al-Qadariyyah etc.

These were called Ahl al-Bid`a wa al-Dalala" = the people of innovation and misguidance

Thereafter the Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaa’ was used to discriminate/ differentiate oneself from the deviant groups.

Barelvi, Ahle-Hadith, Hanafi, Shafi’. Hanbali, Maliki, Wahabi are schools of thought or doctrine within Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaa’ which in Arabic would we called Madhhab and these are not sects.

Read the following:

Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah*(Arabic:*

And the following too. I am copy pasting the relevant paragraphs.

*“Al-Saffarini (d. 1188) notably gave the following definition in his Lawami al-Anwar: “Ahl al-Sunna consist of three groups: the textualists (al-Athariyya), whose Imam is Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the Asharis, whose Imam is Abu al-Hasan al-Ash’ari, and the Maturidis, whose Imam is Abu Mansur al-Maturidi…. and they are all one sect, the saved sect, and they are Ahl al-Hadith.”

Perhaps a more satisfactory expression of the Sunni self-definition of Ahl al-Sunna is given by the great Ash’ari Imam known in absolute terms as “the Ustadh”: Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi (d. 429) in his Farq bayn al-Firaq (The Difference between the Sects). This entire book is in fact an elucidation of the hadith of the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, of which the central part says: “… and my Community shall divide into 73 sects…” At the end of the book he defines Ahl al-Sunna thus:

“Those that have completely mastered and codified the principles of belief =Ash`aris and Maturidis], the Mujtahid Scholars of the four Schools of Law and their followers, the Scholars of hadith that steered clear of deviation, the Scholars of Arabic grammar that steered clear of deviation, the Scholars of tafsir that steered clear of deviation, the Sufis, the people making jihad, and the general masses of the Muslims.”

Similarly al-Iji (d. 756) in the Mawaqif:

“The Saved Group which is excepted from the Prophet’s hadith ‘All of them are in the Fire except one: Those that adhere to what I and my Companions follow’ – these are the Ash’aris, the Salaf of the scholars of hadith, and [generally speaking] Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama`a.”

While al-Haytami, al-Baydawi, and al-Saharanfuri say: “When we use the term Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jamaa, what is meant are the Ash’aris and the Maturidis.” Imam Abd Allah ibn `Alawi al-Haddad (d. 1132) said:

“If you look with a sound understanding into those passages relating to the sciences of faith in the Book, the Sunna, and the sayings of the Salaf… you will know for certain that the truth is with the party called Ash’ari, named after the Shaykh Abu al-Hasan al-Ash’ari, Allah have mercy on him, who systematized the foundations of the creed of the people of the truth and recorded its earliest versions, these being the beliefs which the Companions and the best among the Successors agreed upon.… The Maturidis are the same as the Ash’aris in the above regard*.” by Hajj Gibril Haddad”

http://sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/71-meaning-of-ahl-us-sunnah-wal-jamaat-the

53

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

See what you have written is not according to the hadith

The noble hadith clearly implies that from 73 sects 1 will go to the heaven and this sect will be in the Majority. This clearly shows sectarian division!

And you position is at variance to this: You are implying some people from each sect will form a new group!!! This is completely erroneous and false. It goes against what the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) saying. My advice to you my dear brother is to approach a good scholar and clarify your position on this for your own sake.

First of all let me correct you again.

There were no sects in the time of the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Barelvism doesn’t equate to Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaa’! It is just a school of thought within Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaa’ predominantly established in the Indian Sub-continent.

Barelvi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the Barelvism was formed in reaction to Deobandi movement.

Many of Barlevi beliefs and practices were not held and practiced by the first 3 generations.

If any Barelvi has the same beliefs and practices as the first 3 generations, then of course he deserves to go to Jannah. If there is any discrepancy the penalty has to be paid, if Allah Almighty wills it to be so, later Insha ‘Allah he will be brought back to Jannah.

Keep in mind that ‘Wahabi (Salafi, Ahle-hadith)’ pre-date Barelvi school of thought. Barelvism came later in reaction. These movements were to revive Islam to its original belief and practices.

They too in return take Barelvism to be a deviant school of thought.

If any Deobandi ‘Wahabi (Salafi, Ahle-hadith)’ has the same beliefs and practices as the first 3 generations then of course he deserves to go to Jannah. If there is any discrepancy the penalty has to be paid, if Allah Almighty wills it to be so, then Insha ‘Allah he will be brought back to Jannah.

My dear brother Saleem You have boxed yourself firmly in “Sunni/Barelvi/sufi”

I just want to be a Muslim who strives to follow Islam within Ahlul Sunnah wa Jamaa’ and the following ayahs and hadith guide me.

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!** [The Blessed Quran Surah al Hajj:78]**

And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people. [The Blessed Quran Surah al Baqara:143]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately. . .Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise).” - Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Hadith 470

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise (i.e., no one enters paradise only through his good deeds).” The Prophet’s companions asked: “Not even you?” The Prophet replied: “Not even myself, unless God bestows His favor and mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do what is within your ability. None of you should wish for death, for if he is a doer of good, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to God.” - **Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Hadith 577
**

54

Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

I prefer to call myself a “Muslim”, instead of “Sunni/Shia” Muslim etc.

55

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

This is wrong

Barelvi is named after Imam Raza Khan - who many took as a Mujaddid

It is Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah personified. Not the Ahlus Sunnah that you follow but it is the version of Islam that was ousted from Control of the Haramain when Wahabis took over. So we as a community, what we follow are older then any of the possible groups you could join.

The Proof for this is our beliefs, and this is Psyah’s Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaboubi, who is also a follower of Traditional Islam. He considers Imam Ahmad Raza Khan of Bareilly to be a Mujaddid. A man that His Father, another Highly esteemed Scholar, used to delight at the books of. Both these Scholars have nothing to do with India, or the subcontinent

The Great Imam
The Mujaddid

Now what I am asking you to do is recognize Barelvi is from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah and the man from Bareilly is regarded Highly by at least those who follow traditional Islam, on this occasion the Scholar is Shaami [Syrian] Shadhili and from among the most knowledgeable of those following traditional Islam. This does not mean they agree on everything, which scholars do but one has to be pretty stupid to not notice this they are from each other. If you look on other older organisations like the Naqshabandi Haqqani Turkish group you will see they have same beliefs as Barelvi

Traditional Islam is older then the 100 years you are attributing to us. Imam Ahmad Raza Khan was recognized as the one who protected the Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah. So this means there is an interpretation of Islam, that is perhaps declining in numbers, that is personified in the person of Barelvi but also that at that time they didn’t even know about your beliefs. Meaning your beliefs were not among the people

So your wrong to say barelvism is a reactionary group. The name may be attained as a reaction but the group and its beliefs are the same as traditional Islam, as practiced by those seeking traditional Islam

56

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Gosh what a confusing thread. :slight_smile:

This is why Islam is the most easiest and simplest religion to follow in this world, Alhamdulillah. There are no simply sects in Islam but sadly sects among the Muslims/ Ummah.

57

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

sadly and unfortunately, Iyla. :frowning:

58

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

@vroom @Ibn Sadique

Salam brothers

I think the correct way to view this matter is that Deobandis are a reform movement that saw themselves as a way to revive Islam by eliminating some “extraneous” practices that they saw creeping in to the ummah as well as wanting to take a political approach towards British presence in India.

The Barelvi movement was a struggle … A resistance against this reform seeing it as inherently dangerous for Islam. Today the stark contrast between these two groups is a result of politicalised differences and not dogmatic ones … But they have become dogmatic by raising issues that were seen by traditional ulema as small enough to be acceptable differences to being viewed as huge chasms … So as a result Deobandis are increasingly defining themselves in contrast to Barelvis and vice-versa …

The main problem with Deobandism is that it removes traditional practices believing them all to be wrong … We cannot accept that because some of the things they want to remove are actually acceptable. Confusion here is Wahabis also want to do the same thing but with a much larger knife than the Deobandis … So they get branded the same by the Barelvis.

Conversely there is actually a set of wrong actions prevalent in Barelvis society. First of all takfir is a matter of ulema only … So the followers should remain silent … This is from traditional Islam that the Barelvis do not follow they all like to get involved and as a result spend a lot of their time talking about others rather than themselves … This is not traditional Islam.
Secondly, although some of the practices that are done … Such as urs, mawlid, etc … are in traditional Islam permissible and at most encouraged, but these are often viewed with more importance than other things … The Barelvis need to ensure that they actually follow their scholars … But it is behaving like an anti-Deobandi gang … And by extension anti-Wahabi gang

… The best way to win people is to be kind to them and this is a Sunnat of RasoolAllah (SAW)

And the biggest criticisms our traditional ulema have is this … That the truth may be in our hands, but if deliver it in any way through arrogance or hatred or harshness then we will be among the ones getting ghadab of Allah (SWT) … Yes we should not be from the Dhwaleen … But we should also not be from the harsh people …

59

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

This is again Rubbish

Psyah this issue is too much for you. You may know deobandis but do not speak for ‘Barelvis’.

You are influenced by deobandis and a negative portrayal of them is offensive to you for personal reasons. Three out of the four major scholarly influences that you have talked about are converts. They lean towards Perennialism.

Some thoughts on what you have written:

  1. Deobandi is a movement, there is no opposite movement called Barelvi for you to use here

  2. The scholars of Ahlus Sunnah (not Barelvis) most notably in the Subcontinent opposed Deobandis and deobandism

  3. Deobandis have favorable views on the wahabi movement. Are wahabis themselves due to alignment on issues and sentiments

  4. There is declared Takfir upon certain deobandis, and this is done among other things as a warning to people about them. Common people are to heed this warning.

  5. There is no anti wahabi gang, the only gang is the wahabi (deobandi) and salafi. Opposition to them is not a gang they must be spoken against. False concepts are refuted, and the people should be made aware
    5a. If you are basing your whole assumption on my manners, well they can can clearly be recognized as deobandi/salafi. There is reasons for this. I am a talib of them, I did not put the guns down- just turned my guns back that’s all. You know who to blame. My manners do not dent any community - I talk on beliefs for my own self. the fact that these beliefs have been recognized by myself and others as Barelvi only means that I am often talking against other beliefs. If the beliefs are Barelvi and Sunni then that is what they are, and if the other party are wahabis then that is what they are. If you agree with a little bit of both then that is what you are

  6. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala guides whom He Wills. There is different Sunnats for different situations. We have not even refuted the other ideology yet. To allow the ideology is to be pleased with it. To oppose false ideologies is Islam, past, present and future

  7. The scholars of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah Pakistan/India do talk about regular issues. The fact these are not brought to you is not proof that they do not. If you are judging by what I am presenting then that is highly concentrated on subjects that interest me personally. For example I have presented many works of Pir Saqib Shaami - where is the others?? I tell you where- the same place I picked up whatever interests me, and left the other speeches on the shelf!

  8. If the truth is in our hands, we deliver it in a reasonable manner. Now if the person who is judging right as harsh, due to his own desires or lack of appreciation for the right, says it is harsh - it is his own problem. Yet i can tell you he is liar because he has conveniently skipped over the current environment and failed to call the wrong as a wrong and the right as a right.

A few months ago you were saying deobandis are not wahabis, and use of the word ‘wahabi’ was wrong. Now recently you have agreed that deobandis can be called wahabis and used the word wahabi yourself. Please notice where you are coming from and towards where you are going. if concern for the image of these organisations that you have definitely been friendly towards is always going to be a priority for you - stay with them.

60

Re: Sects in Islam: How do you explain this?

Peace vroom

Deobandis are not Wahabis … I never said they were Wahabis ever … I also said that Barelvis are a resistance to the Deobandis … which means they were from the Ahl-us-Sunnah who stood up against the Deobandis who are also from Ahl-us-Sunnah and started to do differently so just to make it clear this is my position. Barelvis favoured the status quo and the Deobandis didn’t.

Barelvi polemics are anti-Deobandi you cannot deny that … You say things like that need to be made clear - I think things can be made clear in better ways … And the traditional schools teach us those better ways … Shaykh Muhammad Al-Ya’qoubi may praise Sh. Ahmad Raza Khan, but no one praises contemporary Barelvis because of their attitude. Not all are like this - I have seen many Barelvi 'alims who are soft and do not like confrontation and are pragmatic with how they teach …

By saying rubbish does not make what I say rubbish … and if it is rubbish then everyone will be able to see it and you need not say it anyway.

O’ Ahl-us-Sunnati … Is bad manners from the Sunnah?