Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
So everytime any expert gives an opinion that doesn’t match the outcome you want, you’re going to assume that they’ve been bribed, or they are corrupt?
Tell me, what’s the last time you’ve ever heard of a Scotland Yard investigation being misdirected by corruption?
Looking back through the archives of the Guardian you come across the following interview
A Western official with extensive security expertise in Pakistan said he believed ‘conclusively’ that Bhutto was killed by the blast from the bomb and not by an assassin’s bullet. ‘I do know the shots didn’t hit her. The Interior Ministry allowed me to be party to photos and other materials that showed it wasn’t a bullet.’
He said all the evidence supported the Pakistani government’s original - hotly contested - assertion that Bhutto died from a violent blow to the head caused by the suicide blast as she ducked into her vehicle. Film showing her headscarf lifting up after the shooting was caused by her attempt to quickly retreat into the car, he said.
Right now the whole case for her being shot appears to rest on people seeing her headscarf being lifted up - people who’ve never seen a woman in a headscarf being shot in the head suddenyl seem to know exactly what it looks like despite there being no blood flying out as the headscarf went up. Benazir was a human being, with blood and brains in her head, and yet you don’t expect any of that to come flying out after being shot in the head?
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
No. Their conclusion is based on X-rays of Benazir’s head showing no evidence at all of gunshot injury, but instead showing severe blunt force trauma. The dental records of the X-rays they looked at confirm that they were X-rays of Benazir.
The Scotland Yard team included a video evidence expert as well - so the head scarf flapping theory will have been busted.
One interesting point is the difference between Pakistani and British perceptions of the so-called Sunroof.
Both the Pakistani Government and the Pakistani Media always referred to the hole that Benazir was sticking out of as being a “sunroof”. The British team refers to it as the “Escape hatch”.
Yes, only in Pakistan would most people treat the emergency exit from a heavily armoured vehicle as a mere sunroof for standing up out of.
Executive summary of inquiry carried out by Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorism Command
On the 27th December 2007, Mohtarma Benazir BHUTTO, the leader of the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP), died as a result of being attacked in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.
Following discussions between the Prime Minister and President Musharraf, it was agreed that officers from the Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) should support the investigation into Ms Bhutto’s death. The primary focus of the Scotland Yard team was to assist the Pakistani authorities in establishing the cause and circumstances of Ms Bhutto’s death. The wider investigation to establish culpability has remained entirely a matter for the Pakistani authorities.
The SO15 team was led by a Detective Superintendent Senior Investigating Officer, and comprised two forensic experts, an expert in analysing and assessing video media and an experienced investigating officer. The team arrived in Pakistan on 4th January 2008 and spent two and a half weeks conducting extensive enquiries. During the course of their work, the team were joined by other specialists from the United Kingdom.
The UK team were given extensive support and co-operation by the Pakistani authorities, Ms Bhutto’s family, and senior officials from Ms Bhutto’s party.
The task of establishing exactly what happened was complicated by the lack of an extended and detailed search of the crime scene, the absence of an autopsy, and the absence of recognised body recovery and victim identification processes. Nevertheless, the evidence that is available is sufficient for reliable conclusions to be drawn.
Within the overall objective, a particular focus has been placed on establishing the actual cause of death, and whether there were one or more attackers in the immediate vicinity of Ms Bhutto.
The cause of death
Considerable reliance has been placed upon the X-rays taken at Rawalpindi General Hospital following Ms Bhutto’s death. Given their importance, the x-rays have been independently verified as being of Ms Bhutto by comparison with her dental x-rays. Additionally, a valuable insight was gained from the accounts given by the medical staff involved in her treatment, and from those members of Ms Bhutto’s family who washed her body before burial.
**Ms Bhutto’s only apparent injury was a major trauma to the right side of the head. The UK experts all exclude this injury being an entry or exit wound as a result of gunshot.The only X-ray records, taken after her death, were of Ms Bhutto’s head. However, the possibility of a bullet wound to her mid or lower trunk can reasonably be excluded. This is based upon the protection afforded by the armoured vehicle in which she was travelling at the time of the attack, and the accounts of her family and hospital staff who examined her.
The limited X-ray material, the absence of a full post mortem examination and CT scan, have meant that the UK Home Office pathologist, Dr Nathaniel Cary, who has been consulted in this case, is unable categorically to exclude the possibility of there being a gunshot wound to the upper trunk or neck. However when his findings are put alongside the accounts of those who had close contact with Ms Bhutto’s body, the available evidence suggests that there was no gunshot injury. Importantly, Dr Cary excludes the possibility of a bullet to the neck or upper trunk as being a relevant factor in the actual cause of death, when set against the nature and extent of her head injury. **
In his report Dr Cary states:
“the only tenable cause for the rapidly fatal head injury in this case is that it occurred as the result of impact due to the effects of the bomb-blast.”
“in my opinion Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto died as a result of a severe head injury sustained as a consequence of the bomb-blast and due to head impact somewhere in the escape hatch of the vehicle.”
Given the severity of the injury to Ms Bhutto’s head, the prospect that she inadvertently hit her head whilst ducking down into the vehicle can be excluded as a reasonable possibility.
**High explosives of the type typically used in this sort of device, detonate at a velocity between 6000 and 9000 metres per second. This means that when considering the explosive quantities and distances involved, such an explosion would generate significantly more force than would be necessary to provoke the consequences as occurred in this case.
It is also important to comment upon the construction of the vehicle. It was fitted with B6 grade armour and designed to withstand gunfire and bomb-blast. It is an unfortunate and misleading aspect of this case that the roof escape hatch has frequently been referred to as a sunroof. It is not. It is designed and intended to be used solely as a means of escape. It has a solid lip with a depth of 9cm.
Ms Bhutto’s injury is entirely consistent with her head impacting upon the lip of the escape hatch. Detailed analysis of the media footage provides supporting evidence. Ms Bhutto’s head did not completely disappear from view until 0.6 seconds before the blast. She can be seen moving forward and to the right as she ducked down into the vehicle. Whilst her exact head position at the time of the detonation can never be ascertained, the overwhelming conclusion must be that she did not succeed in getting her head entirely below the lip of the escape hatch when the explosion occurred. **
How many people were involved in the immediate attack?
There has been speculation that two individuals were directly involved in the attack. The suggestion has been that one suspect fired shots, and a second detonated the bomb. All the available evidence points toward the person who fired shots and the person who detonated the explosives being one and the same person.
Body parts from only one individual remain unidentified. Expert opinion provides strong evidence that they originate from the suicide bomber.
Analysis of the media footage places the gunman at the rear of the vehicle and looking down immediately before the explosion. The footage does not show the presence of any other potential bomber.
This footage when considered alongside the findings of the forensic explosive expert, that the bombing suspect was within 1 to 2 metres of the vehicle towards it rear and with no person or other obstruction between him and the vehicle, strongly suggests that the bomber and gunman were at the same position. It is virtually inconceivable that anyone who was where the gunman can clearly be seen on the media footage, could have survived the blast and escaped.
The inevitable conclusion is that there was one attacker in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle in which Ms Bhutto was travelling.
In essence, all the evidence indicates that one suspect has fired the shots before detonating an improvised explosive device. At the time of the attack this person was standing close to the rear of Ms Bhutto’s vehicle. The blast caused a violent collision between her head and the escape hatch area of the vehicle, causing a severe and fatal head injury.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
So you believe Scotland Yard is all independent and can not be indulgded in corruption cases. Remember the Yard cleared over BBC claims in Lawrence casehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2190338,00.html
You see a lot of blood on the seats of the Land Cruiser. If she was hit by some sharp objected on the roof top. How come she disappeared into the cruiser right after the shots were fired and you see the blast occuring some seconds after. Are you suggesting the video to be fake?
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
The independent inquiry commision (which has in the past often ruled against the police) did exonerate Scotland Yard, proving that corruption did not play a role.
You see a lot of blood on the seats of the Land Cruiser. If she was hit by some sharp objected on the roof top. How come she disappeared into the cruiser right after the shots were fired and you see the blast occuring some seconds after. Are you suggesting the video to be fake?
The X-rays showed severe blunt force trauma to the head, enough to kill a person. A wound that serious would bleed a lot, accounting for the blood on the seats. Indeed, since the wound was obviously so bad that people near her thought she was shot, it must have been a very deep wound.
Scotland Yard found that Bhutto's head did not disappear completely from view until half a second before the blast. The armoured hatch being nearly 10 cm deep, being out of view doesn't mean she moved her head clearly away from the lid of the hatch. The blast passing overhead at 6000-9000 metres per second would cause a partial vacuum momentarily above her, moving her and her head quickly. Being near the hatch, her head smashed into it at speed, causing enormous trauma and bleeding, killing her.
As I mentioned before, the video of her scarf flapping showed no trace of blood as would happen if she was shot. Indeed, Benazir showed no sign of injury in the video at all. Right until the point where she disappeared from view, there was no blood, showing she was uninjured at that point. A bullet going into her head would come out the other side, followed by a trail of blood and brains.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
Time to move on. Unless the body is exhumed and an autopsy is done, people can argue as to how she died until the cows come home.
People should accept the result, or call for an autopsy.
I agree 100%. This result, however improbable it seems, is the only explanation, in the absense of key evidences including the body. Why did Asif Zardari refused autopsy? How else you could prove one way or the other? Keep in mind, people have mentioned that there was a wound left side of her head, but no one claimed with certainty that it was a bullet hole. A bullet hole is not like a regular wound, and it is very obvious when you see it. (I dont have any personal experience, it just that I have seen many CSI shows).
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
But a piece of key evidence which remained was the X-rays of her head, which, as the British pathologist clearly stated, showed that the injury to the head was not consistent with what a bullet would do, but was consistent with blunt force trauma.
So
1) Either the X-rays are wrong
2) Either the pathologist is wrong.
Given that the video does not appear to show any blood coming out Benazir's head, it seems that she wasn't shot in the head, therefore the pathologst appears right.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
The independent inquiry commision (which has in the past often ruled against the police) did exonerate Scotland Yard, proving that corruption did not play a role.
Yes because there was no proof, which still doesnt mean corruption was not the call the very first morning. You cannot say that Scotland Yard never was held responsible for corruption cases by that news.
[quote]
Scotland Yard found that Bhutto's head did not disappear completely from view until half a second before the blast. The armoured hatch being nearly 10 cm deep, being out of view doesn't mean she moved her head clearly away from the lid of the hatch. The blast passing overhead at 6000-9000 metres per second would cause a partial vacuum momentarily above her, moving her and her head quickly. Being near the hatch, her head smashed into it at speed, causing enormous trauma and bleeding, killing her.
As I mentioned before, the video of her scarf flapping showed no trace of blood as would happen if she was shot. Indeed, Benazir showed no sign of injury in the video at all. Right until the point where she disappeared from view, there was no blood, showing she was uninjured at that point. A bullet going into her head would come out the other side, followed by a trail of blood and brains.
[/quote]
Lets agree It did create that vaccum and the sharp object did hit her on the head. But trust me (for what knowledge I have) such people either fall into coma or do survive with fatal life threatening injures and post operative risks of damage. But dying in first place is no option. Analyse the area of injury fully and ask a doctor, there are hardly any chances for a person to die.
Secondly even If BB was shot in the head or/and through the neck there is no neccessity to see a trail of blood and brains on the video. Especially when Its a bullet from a pistol and from further range then you would rather prefer placing i.e.: for a suicide attempt. Note: We are talking of a 9 mm not a 20" barrel.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
I agree 100%. This result, however improbable it seems, is the only explanation, in the absense of key evidences including the body. Why did Asif Zardari refused autopsy? How else you could prove one way or the other? Keep in mind, people have mentioned that there was a wound left side of her head, but no one claimed with certainty that it was a bullet hole. A bullet hole is not like a regular wound, and it is very obvious when you see it. (I dont have any personal experience, it just that I have seen many CSI shows).
That's right. Autopsy will also clarify whether she was shot in the abdomen as suggested by Farooq Naik (BB's lawyer and a senior PPP official) with the possibility that she may have been shot inside the car? What is Zardari afraid of?
People should accept the result of this inquiry, or exhume the body for an autopsy.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
Being held responsible by news is different to actually being responsible - it’s more accurate to say that a news report made an accusation, which was investigated by the responsible independent authority, and found to be incorrect.
At any rate, blunt force trauma to the head is a leading cause of death.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
What the X-rays would also have shown is whether or not the cranial cavity was breached by the major trauma on the right side of her head (ie did her skull partially cave in?) - which would have produced a different and even more serious injury than cerebral contusion.
A serious injury like that would resemble gunshot damage to the inexperienced like those near her at the time.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
What the X-rays would also have shown is whether or not the cranial cavity was breached by the major trauma on the right side of her head (ie did her skull partially cave in?) - which would have produced a different and even more serious injury than cerebral contusion.
A serious injury like that would resemble gunshot damage to the inexperienced like those near her at the time.
Mad_s, defending one wrong with valid facts is one thing, but defending same wrong with assumptions and personal estimation will lead this discussion to inifinite.
I have tried making my point clear. You can ask any neurosurgeon (and I have asked in Pak some for their opinion) about this incident and he will state you the same as I have.
Therefore I cannot trust Yards investigation, regardless of how valid and convincing you find their repots on this matter.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
Scotland Yard's experts pointed out that the only injury in the X-rays was a major wound on the right side of her head.
Sherry Rehman also had said that the was a major wound on the right side that is where Benazir bled out of, though Sherry said that the major wound was an exit wound from a bullet that went in through the left.
However, as the X-rays do not show any form of bullet entry from the left, one can only assume that Sherry Rehman was wrong and misunderstood something else (such as a splash of blood) as an entry wound.
Benazir's head was smashed into the emergency exit hatch as a result of a huge pressure wave that went overhead following the bombing. The wave would have sucked her up into the vacuum it left behind - except the 10cm thick hatch rim got in the way. She hit it with such force that it basically smashed her head open.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
I have tried making my point clear. You can ask any neurosurgeon (and I have asked in Pak some for their opinion) about this incident and he will state you the same as I have.
Very well. I am visiting my aunt who is a doctor tonight, and will discuss this with her and get a medically qualified opinion.
I am suprised that you found a neurosurgeon who would actually suggest that a brutal impact that would smash open a head so badly that it could be mistaken for a bullet exit wound would not be swiftly fatal.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
I just have a question...haven't been following this situation too closely but I am confused about something. If she was shot; when she went to the hospital wouldn't the doctor that saw her know she had been shot? And if she was injured in the head wouldnt the doctor know that? I mean can't they use them as a source of witness???
Over the weekend, Athar Minallah, a board member at Rawalpindi General, e-mailed journalists Bhutto’s medical report. The report, which was separate from documents that doctors say have been confiscated, describes a deep wound in Bhutto’s head that was leaking brain matter.
No “foreign body” was found in the wound, the report says, and no exit wound was recorded. But in an X-ray of Bhutto’s skull, the doctors identified “two to three tiny radio-densities.” Minallah said in an interview that the report suggested those were bullet fragments.
U.S. medical experts said the “radio-densities” were probably not bullets.
Thomas M. Scalea, physician in chief of the shock trauma center at the University of Maryland Medical Center, said that while there was no evidence of a bullet wound, he was also perplexed by how the blunt force of Bhutto’s head against an object could have caused brain damage severe enough to kill her so quickly.
“The whole thing strikes me as very unusual,” said Scalea.
================================================
The only people who have clearly said they saw entry and exit wounds have been PPP senior leaders, none of whom are medically qualified to give a professional opinion on the exact nature of what they saw.
The one doctor who ever said she was killed by a bullet never mentioned whether or not there was a bullet entry or a bullet exit wound; and even he later changed his mind.
All other medical records looked at by the media or by the Pakistani and Scotland Yard inquiries clearly show no bullet entry wounds.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
I just find it disgusting that people here are basing their conclusions on very limited knowledge of the situation. Honestly, who here can claim that they had the same amount of access to the case as Scotland Yard? It just shows a lack of respect for professionals. These days, everyone is under the impression that they can do everyone else's job more competently just because they have access to Google and Wikipedia.
Also, just because one neurosurgeon believes one thing doesn't mean his opinion counts for much. Did he have access to the crime scene? Is he a qualified crime scene investigator? Can he draw conclusions from the blood inside the SUV if he isn't a blood splatter expert? Remember, all the public has access to is videos shot by cell phones, where as Scotland Yard is a professional group of investigators that had access to the entire crime scene. When an engineering firm designs a bridge, do they just look at the video of the landscape and start designing it or do they actually go out on the field and collect empirical data to base their work on? In the face of a proper investigation held by a recognized and respected institution, our theories based merely on video footage means absolutely nothing, not to mention the fact that I'm quite certain no one here is a qualified criminal video analyst, thus your conclusions are going to be irrelevant.
On the other hand, if you are willing to dismiss the Scotland Yard because you think they are involved in this conspiracy than I honestly don't know what to say. I can attempt to prove their conclusion myself using my limited access to the crime scene (i.e. video footages) but I would be doing the same thing that I despise. I'm not qualified to question Scotland Yard and neither are the rest of you.
Re: Scotland Yard: Injury From Blast Killed Bhutto
GV: So what is ur take on this? And the doc who later changed his mind how do u know he has not been peruaded by the gov't....anything works with here u take this money and keep ur mouth shut.....And another thing how did Scotland Yards do an analysis of BB? Did they have access to the SUV she was in? I don't know the complete story so I don't have any take on whether she was murdered or it happened because of hitting her head on the roof...just had questions in my mind.