Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Those in Pakland would understand me when I say that there is a rape of the Hijaab taking place in colleges and universities and even otherwise. Where a hijaab is donned simply to conceal identity when being whisked away in unknown cars.
Yes I have seen that too. And those private dance parties which are held for all the guys/girls, girls sometimes even come in niqaabs.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
My SO was born/ raised/ and lived there for 23 years. He did see all the dating in colleges, the inappropriate clothing on girls, the hugging/kissing between opposite gender, and of course the premarital sex. Actually let me be specific (EVERYONE of his friends was involved in either sleeping around with their girlfriends or they would be getting hookers). Does that make these things norms? Or even common IN ALL OF PAKISTAN?
*NO. Period. *
I think there are a group of people in Pakistan who are highly influenced by Western media, and for some reason that's the group which is also all over Pakistani media and Pak limelight. But within this mess somehow the true culture and the real norms of Pakistan get completely forgotten.
Ask your SO about the middle class. It is not just prevalent in the elite. It is spreading wildly. It is easy to say it is prevalent in the elite. The middle class hide it better. You dont like here doll. He did, ask him
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Thank you psyah for clarifying my points
**By saying something is "common" may be understood by some people as something is "acceptable"
You word it well. I am not saying it is acceptable. I am saying it is becoming and is prevalent.
** ... on the other hand if we recognise that a problem is becoming more common with a mind to correct it ... then we should correct it, by keeping the taboo in tact.
I believe that the problem can be corrected only if we acknowledge there is a problem. If we are not aware of the prevalent corruption of society in general, how are we to know what to warn our children against?
I feel we can become more concerned with breaking "taboos" than we are at resolving problems. My understanding is that the "taboo" itself is not a factor that creates the problem, but it does supress it ... alongside the taboo we need to guide people to the wisdom in "avoiding" such things.
For years we have been bombarded with love songs and relationship dramas ... I would not be surprised if zina is widespread in Pak. But I try to express the topic in a way where the taboo is preserved.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
At this point I don't see a middle class in Pakistan. It's either Upper or lower. And when I say upper, it's not only celebs, it's also the family who can own one car/ not limited on meat/ is able to save up enough for a decent education for kids/living in a small house with at least one maid. If the later is considered middle class, well that's a discussion for another day. The lower class (majority) are NO where near this type of life.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
hmm @Gaia the problems in lower class according to your definitions therefore are a whole other bundle of tricks.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
question why does it matter if somebody is having sex or not or doing something haraam or not
how does it affect us/you?
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
That isnt the question I posed. I inquired after double standards and absolute ignorance about such going ons.
question why does it matter if somebody is having sex or not or doing something haraam or not how does it affect us/you?
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
lol just as madhatter said. We all know such things are happening. People like to live in denial. Now, I am hoping I will be advised to change my company soon too 
Honestly people, demesne might be coming from one angle, but I have this exposure of living in major cities and ending up in a corner of rural punjab. and I KNOW FOR TRUTH it exists everywhere. There are women, married, mothers, who keep extra marital affair or simply elope. what of them? There was one in the neighbouring locality, mother of 5 and 7 months preggers, who eloped with her brother in law (sister’s husband). What of her? If such cases are not common, why wasnt she caught and stoned to death? If our society is so chaste to begin with. Until we untie this blind fold from our eyes and start to identify it is present and possesses a threat to the society, we aint helping much really.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
I agree with the gist of your post, yet it's unclear what you're protesting. Is it why people are "incredulous" upon hearing of instances of 'moral deprivation' amongst Pakistani youth? While it's true some people are in denial, others are genuinely not in touch with what Pakistani kids do for fun nowadays. For those born and raised outside of the motherland, the image/identity/notion of Pakistan is informed by romantic nostalgia for a country our parents left in their teens/early 20's - which is not to say pre-marital sex didn't occur when our parents were growing up, just that it wasn't as ubiquitous or flaunted. Our own memories include childhood visits before the proliferation of the dish and cell phone, times arguably more innocent, a pace much slower, so to speak. So yeah, things have changed drastically since the first members of the millennial generation came of age. But how does incredulity alone necessarily imply arrogance or judgment - if anything it betrays misplaced naivety/ignorance/insulated earnestness.
Also, does emotional/mental immunization to things out of one's comfort zone amount to progress/maturity/enlightenment? To expound the point you're making about preaching from high horses and moral grounds, you'll recall your disapproval of my perceived lack of rage over nudity vs murder/ my refusal to equate the two/ that I apparently didn't feel as strongly about the former as you did (presumably because I wasn't calling for 'extreme measures'). What would you call gauging one's moral conscience by how violently one is willing to punish an offense? If we determine this (calls for violent repercussions of personal vices) not to be hubris/self-righteous piety, wouldn't astonishment expressed over unmarried women having abortions in Pakistani clinics be a welcome sign of a moral conscience that's alive and kicking? (Something I sorely lack when it comes to nekkid women).
Food for thought.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Peace mirage
I think it is more dangerous than that … I fear that the moment we take off the blind folds people will “like” what they see and start to emulate it. I fear that we have not done enough to protect society from considering it wrong enough to allow it to be opened up to them. Rather I think we have made society crave it more and even if people are not doing it, they long to do so in their heads … before taking the shutters off we need to mend the minds that we have poisoned.
“I hope by the undertone in what I say … you can see that I don’t deny it exists … but if I am put on a podium for sure I will deny it”
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Peace mirage
I asked the same question but the other way round ... I also gave a solution to it. For those who see it and cannot avoid it should do something about it.
Are we saying that accepting something is the same as saying it is acceptable? If not then those who see it should do something about it ... and it is better to do something about it in quiet ... if we make a fuss about it then it can become a form of "encouragement" for others who are only thinking about doing it to start doing it.
It may be that more conservatives are engaged in evil than the less conservatives I don't know perhaps you know better, but there is sure a lot of wisdom in keeping evil supressed from public knowledge so long as at the same time when we see it we act and do something to stop it. If we just talk about it are we talking about it merely to remove the taboo (i.e. make the problem seem acceptable) or to correct the problem itself?
Peace, Psyah,
I totally get what you mean, and I agree completely, from the religious point of view. Obviously, in all matters, religion comes first. I would NEVER tolerate any dear or near one of mine crossing the boundaries set by religion and indulge into any such abhor-some activity. But do I react the same when its about Ribba, Shirk, Disobedience to parents and the other Gunah-e-Kabeera's? Do we, really? BECAUSE, there are a few things our society accepts and assimilates, and a few it doesnt. Is it a fair approach then? I would call it hypocrisy and doule standards and would definitely voice against. The sooner we wake up from this slumber of belief that what we think* or feel* is right, the rest is not our problem, the better. It definitely IS our problem because, MY CHILDREN will live in the same society AND I dont want them to do stuff I see the girls doing today. But to eliminate this evil, we need to identify atleast. And it disgusts me like anything when I read such naive remarks here that its only 1/100 here. HELL NO. If you ask me, honestly, its about 50-70%. The ratio in married women might be less because of the lack of opportunities and their compromise with their married life. And again, much goes under the hood even then.
Now what am I doing in my own place? Alhamdolillah, Im much satisfied claiming I am doing something, if not much. My students do listen to me, they have this respect for me and I do put it into their ears off and on that they should guard their honour and their family's. I think if even 2 or 4 out of 100 actually listen to me, and step backward, my life is worth it.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
in response to your last post, Psyah, honestly, thats why lately I have been very much in the favour of girls and boys to have married in their teens. Period. And I came to this conclusion after witnessing all this miserable ethical deterioration we are so badly suffering from. It might put an end to un married adultery at least. At least. I wish a few of our ulemah arrange a gathering on this and tell people the Last Prophet Sal Allah o Aleh Wassalam actually favoured marriages in early age.
And please dont start off that this si conservative. Our teens know their stuff, and they are better at it than us, already. There is no harm if they are given a legitimate source.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
in response to your last post, Psyah, honestly, thats why lately I have been very much in the favour of girls and boys to have married in their teens. Period. And I came to this conclusion after witnessing all this miserable ethical deterioration we are so badly suffering from. It might put an end to un married adultery at least. At least. I wish a few of our ulemah arrange a gathering on this and tell people the Last Prophet Sal Allah o Aleh Wassalam actually favoured marriages in early age.
And please dont start off that this si conservative. Our teens know their stuff, and they are better at it than us, already. There is no harm if they are given a legitimate source.
How weird is it that I came to the same conclusion? That kids need to be married off early and thats the reason Islam gives for it too. That early marriages should take place if control of nafs becomes difficult and there is the danger of sinning. Im in favor of boys marrying by 24-25 and females as early as 19-20. Later for females if you can shelter them
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
^ now wait till someone comes and calls me mullah or taliban or anything may please them 
:halo:
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
There needs to be a rolling eyes smiley. gives cake to mirage and sits back to wait for the bashing crowd
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
lol please grab some popcorn for yourself too, or this 
will do.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Peace mirage and Demesne
You two are such mullas ... I can't believe it ... :)
In the defence of those "nawjawan" who go out partying and free mixing ... to be honest is wrong because they are doing what they parents would disapprove of ... however, I think it is wrong for us to conclude they are going out to "sex deviation cult parties" at the same time. They may just all sit together on couches and have a couple of soft drinks or chai and hurl abuse at each other like friends for all I know ... the problem is we make assumptions about our youth ... yes they do misbehave ... but I think the majority of the time their activities are basically "westernised" ... and trust me it's harder than you think to get "someone in bed" in the West ... I would like to think it is harder still in Pakistan ... I think our youth want others to "think" they are doing all and sundry ... but in reality it might not be as bad ...
Again I'm not saying it is not happening ... but we can't say for sure until we see the act itself ... now that is what Islamic courts would require if anyone wants to issue lashes for punishment!!!
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
at the end of the day ...two wrongs don't make a right..prevalent as it might be, we need to at least know that it's completely wrong. While we should guard everybody's secrets and observe pardah and not talk about it, it's absolutely wrong...no matter the multitude of people doing it.
And I would also go for the innocent until proven guilty rule.
Brushing under the carpet won't help but neither keeping all the dust proudly sitting on our furniture either. :)
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
** Peace mirage and Demesne
You two are such mullas ... I can't believe it ... :)
**
yay! we be mullahs
peace psyah!
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
yay! we be mullahs
peace psyah!
I thought I would save others the trouble ...