Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
See thats's one thing that scares me. If I think and portray it's normal then so will my children. Do I want my kids having boyfriends or girlfriends? In an ideal situation HELL NO. End of.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
This is a beautiful post @Puchi_Kuchi
Knowledge of an illness helps in the prevention and cure though dont u agree?
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Please dont get me wrong I am not saying that we've lost deen completely. All I am saying is that certain things are becoming more and more common, quite common, so much so that it really isnt much to gasp at anymore when you hear of couples who get physical. It isnt an anomaly, it's one of those common things. I work in the hospitals and Ive seen so many girls come in for abortions! Unmarried!
There are certain strata where it is more prevalent, but I do believe that the only reason for that is that the others hide it better.
There was a time when divorce was unheard of in our society. Now when you hear of someone's engagement breaking, marriage breaking you shrug it off because you've heard of so many others. It's hurtful to hear but there are so many more instances now that you are able to take it in stride compared to how you would have reacted before.
The society is definitely changing (for the better or worse thats another discussion for another day) but the thing is, that certain responses to incidents that occur seem like they are coming from people who believe in a utopian ideal pakland and that simply isnt true
Just like you choose to generalize based on the select few you've interacted with, I will also generalize based on the many that I interact with, and have interacted with.
First your point of not blinking an eye when hearing about divorced. I am not exactly sure what kind of society level you belong to (upper, middle, lower etc), but where I come from, divorce was and still continues to be a very big issue, and not to be taken lightly. Any mention of it will garner a gasp, questioning, and numerous what ifs to be able to not come to that step. Let alone a discussion of a broken engagement or a rishta broken. These are not taken lightly where I come from, and I straddle two different societies (East and West).
As for the issue that you've raised, yes, pre-marital affairs (and by this i mean sexual relations) do exist in Pakistan, and outside of Pakistan among Pakistanis. But these instances are maybe 1 in a 100 people, if not more. That doesn't mean it's sooooo common that you come to accept it. It's not common, and it's not right either. Anyone indulging in such activities should consider it wrong, and anyone hearing about this should consider it wrong, and where I come from, it is considered wrong. But it is under no circumstances accepted, and anyone saying such a thing isn't riding on their high horse or is overly moralistic. What is wrong is wrong. There are many couples in my own particular family and friend's circle that have chosen to marry of their own accord. They have chosen their own partners, went through the proper channels, and then gotten married. But I can say with full confidence that beyond meeting in public with friends, nothing more has happened with them. And that is the norm. And yes, even now, even though the number of "love marriages" is increasing, the news of such a couple is still reacted with trepidation. Are we being overly prudish? No. We are being culturally relevant. But in the end, we do say, let's pray that they live a happy married life.
And I hate to bring up this point, but since you chose to mention your other thread in this thread, why in the world is your friend discussing such sensitive issue with you. What goes on between couples is not a matter of public discussion. My closest friend has yet to mention any intimate details of what she has done with her then fiance and now her husband, and we have discussed with each other in detail things about us to each other. No one in the world, not even men discuss how many times a day they've been boinking their significant other and how unsatisfied they might be. I am not being holier than thou, though you can choose to interpret my post that way, but what is right should be considered right and not waved off as being too "better than you".
In conclusion, no it isn't happening everrrrrrrrrrrywhere. It isn't common. You need to change your company.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
**I think to really know abt these things you need to have a finger on the pulse so to speak. And the pulse is the younger crowd aged 18-24. **To have a finger on the pulse you either need to gain their trust, or know someone who is part of that age group to know what really goes on. Unfortunately or fortunately, to be able to carry on like this in pakland you need to play a dual role. Society does condemn this , especially the older generations. And kids have got this dual role down to a T.
Doesnt mean that you need to be fooled.
I had to stop here and respond because I believe I fit to cite my honest opinion here per personal experience. I have this daily basis interaction with girls in college and man have they corrupted!!!! Its shameful for us to acknowledge, but most of them come to college only so that they can go with the "partners" they have arranged meetings with. A few of the girls have been reported to leave sitting in some unknown car by 8:30 and arriving back at 3:30. And this particular girl is a sophomore. Now obviously a saint would believe she and her whoever were playing a game of chess all that time. We struck that girl off. But such cases keep arising on almost every alternate day basis. There are girls who elope, who encourages them to that extent and whats the guarantee they would have withheld the advances of the one for whom they would elope even before getting married. And im not going to narrate the rest of 101 cases because, it will be futile.
I loved the part where you said that those who are not exposed is because they hide it better. People can choose to live in denial if they want to, may suit themselves.
Its not something we should be proud of BUT i think we should have ghairat enough to acknowledge and take appropriate action so that it can be eliminated BECAUSE Zina is a Zina after all, whatever excuses you may give for it, its a test of your nafs and only the parhezgar will pass the test.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
All these things have been under the hood since early 60s in Pakistan. The only difference now is that more and more ppl are beggining to **accept **that the youth (some not all) have become culturally and Islamically quite a deviant crowd. But I still think mainly it depends on the social circle you move in.
There are the elites who openly now discuss their rampant misadvenntures and take pride in them...there are others who still do it but keep it a very hush hush business. But while studying in medical school and attending my rotations in the hospital (Govt hospital in lahore) I came to realise that people deviate but don't go to the extremes. As in they would have a bf/gf (haram obviously but wouldn't have gone till the extreme of being physical).
And surprisingly D during my rotation in O&G I came across only 2 unmarried women looking for abortion out of unwanted pregnancy. Most of my friends happily married now AH had their crushes, flings, sneakouts etc but none of them crossed the line as I know. The only time this male friend of mine who approached me asking about some other friend of another uni (say LUMS/LSE) for emergency contraception, I snubbed him right there and then.
Drinking is a complete no-no as well. Though everybody almost experiments with sheesha, smoking.
So I guess it does depend on the social circle and the uni/college ppl go to and the level of frankness people have to share such things. But all in all I still think out of parents' respect, a *maximum *majority of kids still think twice before going to the extremes.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
The question is, how many of you accept that there may be a lot going on in our very culture, in our social circles, perhaps even in our own lives that is not in strict accordance to either culturally accepted norms or Islam?
Peace Demesne
If by accepting it will there be a risk of the taboo being deconstructed and making it seem acceptable ... or by not accepting it will there be a risk in it festering if it does exist?
Sometimes it is better to be "hear no evil, see no evil" if when exposed to such things we are too weak to take action ... because according to the hadith we need "stop wrong and evil happening if we see it, speak out against it, or hate it in the heart, which is the weakest state" but if we fear that we might become lured by it, fail to speak out or even start to engage in it ... then surely it is better to stay away from the risk of being exposed to it.
Perhaps when people don't accept something it is not because they are being arrogant, but because they fear they will find something that they don't like if they look ... and I don't think we should criticise them for that ... It is out of their sense of ghairat they do that ...
For people like yourself ... who can see things happening ... keep them a secret and help the people who you find, need the help and direction and help them ... sometimes being responsible for knowing too much is a big burden. Think of the those priests who are told by the people who confess their sins ... "O father forgive me for I have sinned, I have killed someone" and then the priests need to decide whether they should tell the police or not ... or encourage the confessor to give themselves in to the police to be put on trial and sentenced. For the truly repentant is the one who wants to be purified and asks to be given penalty ... If it is the case that a person you know has sinned and is happy with it, and you aim to do nothing about it ... then it is better to keep it to yourself or else that very thing could become a fitnah for the society and add to the ruin rather than cleaning it up.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Hornyness is part of being human and it has nothing to do with traditions or religion , though just teaches you a way to channelize it in a positive way . So yea don't over estimate traditions and religion if one's mind is evil and Pakistan is no exception .
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Honestly Dem I knew all this was coming for you since you dared. Now, many holy people here would be having gf/bf themselves and so would their friends, but see you need to change your company because you dared to talk about it. All is well as far as its under the hood :k:
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Firstly, I think the 'holier than thou' attitude comes from the changing approaches we have towards stuff like this. The younger generation don't like being preached to - even when they know what the other person is saying is right. There is something about this manner which comes across as a little smug to them and then winds them up. That is not to say that the other person is wrong, if something is haram then it's haram, you can't pick and choose.
In terms of things such as sex before marriage etc etc happening more and more commonly, I wonder if we are afraid of becoming desensitized to these issues and becoming used to them. Certainly in the society I live in, although the muslim community is still quite close-knit - dating, zina, drinking is still something which comes up in hushed voices - the difference is our reactions, we are less surprised, and i think perhaps find it a little harder to prevent these things from or even understand the origins of them.
But it is also a question of individual mentality also, everyone has a different idea of how they approach this issue. I have always believed that you should keep 'purdah' when seeing sins being committed, and it does help - rather than openly denouncing it and making matters worse.
In this day and age it does happen, I think we all know that. The issue is just how you choose handle the information and whether you are the type of just ignore it and lead your own life quietly.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
she is absolutely right on her part. It’s happening. I know. All am saying is that where people dare talk openly about it, it would seem to be happening in every household but in conservative places where even such talk is taboo (yes there are ALOT of people in Pak like this) it would seem to be a very very unlikely ‘haw-haye’ thing. So yes the kind of people we interact with does matter.
When I was in A levels and at one of the best schools in Lahore, there was alot more random talk about such scapegoat incidents. But when I went to a Govt college, people were so hush-hush about a lot of stuff ! So I have been on both sides and I know what Demi is talking aout and also what others are.
*
**The real problem for me is that acceptance and knowing that everybody is doing it can create havoc if one starts becoming immune to it until it becomes a complete norm!
***And you know it is becoming a norm when people start thinking you are an alien for you didnt have a relationship before getting married and agreed to marry a person you barely know just because your parents wished so.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
^ You know what Enig, the conservative most who consider it a taboo have it even more. And I am saying this on the basis of very very close observation. Again, referring to the last para of your post, I wonder what if you are next, because in your nativity, you just pointed at something which is again a norm, BUT you know where it will lead to... If some people on here want to live in their make believe world, let them be. It hurts like hell to see your society bleeding with practices like these, but is the denial any better?
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
the problem is, we always like to maintain an ideal version of things, even we aint perfect ourselves. Honestly, if you have/had been in a relationship, you have no right to point fingers at others, nor to be a saint in front of your children when you will have them. Just imagine, when you couldnt control your nafs,will your next generation be saintlike? Charity begins at home. You have to be perfect before looking for it in the people or society.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
I had to stop here and respond because I believe **I fit to cite my honest opinion here per personal experience. I have this daily basis interaction with girls in college and man have they corrupted!!!! **Its shameful for us to acknowledge, but most of them come to college only so that they can go with the "partners" they have arranged meetings with. A few of the girls have been reported to leave sitting in some unknown car by 8:30 and arriving back at 3:30. And this particular girl is a sophomore. Now obviously a saint would believe she and her whoever were playing a game of chess all that time. We struck that girl off. But such cases keep arising on almost every alternate day basis. There are girls who elope, who encourages them to that extent and whats the guarantee they would have withheld the advances of the one for whom they would elope even before getting married. And im not going to narrate the rest of 101 cases because, it will be futile.
I loved the part where you said that those who are not exposed is because they hide it better. People can choose to live in denial if they want to, may suit themselves.
Its not something we should be proud of BUT i think we should have ghairat enough to acknowledge and take appropriate action so that it can be eliminated BECAUSE Zina is a Zina after all, whatever excuses you may give for it, its a test of your nafs and only the parhezgar will pass the test.
Thank you mirage for having the courage to state what you have seen so that it doesnt seem as though Im the only one who is talking abt this stuff and that it isnt common.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
^ You know what Enig, the conservative most who consider it a taboo have it even more. And I am saying this on the basis of very very close observation. Again, referring to the last para of your post, I wonder what if you are next, because in your nativity, you just pointed at something which is again a norm, BUT you know where it will lead to... If some people on here want to live in their make believe world, let them be. It hurts like hell to see your society bleeding with practices like these, but is the denial any better?
Peace mirage
I asked the same question but the other way round ... I also gave a solution to it. For those who see it and cannot avoid it should do something about it.
Are we saying that accepting something is the same as saying it is acceptable? If not then those who see it should do something about it ... and it is better to do something about it in quiet ... if we make a fuss about it then it can become a form of "encouragement" for others who are only thinking about doing it to start doing it.
It may be that more conservatives are engaged in evil than the less conservatives I don't know perhaps you know better, but there is sure a lot of wisdom in keeping evil supressed from public knowledge so long as at the same time when we see it we act and do something to stop it. If we just talk about it are we talking about it merely to remove the taboo (i.e. make the problem seem acceptable) or to correct the problem itself?
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
It's on the rise, but for sure it's not the norm. Like Murgi said it's like 1 out of a 100. Also, the communities where this is most predominant is the upper class, which we all know is really not that big in Pakistan. But even within the 'upper class' where most of my family in Pakistan falls it's not common AT ALL. We had our first divorce on my mother's side of the family in 40+ years, none on my father's side. And this divorce was discussed for over one year, because it was so heartbreaking. There is no premarital sex(except of one fishy situation), even when people have found their own partners.
Even when I look further than my family, and look at family friends, it still cannot be said it's 'common' in the typical Pakistani household.
My SO was born/ raised/ and lived there for 23 years. He did see all the dating in colleges, the inappropriate clothing on girls, the hugging/kissing between opposite gender, and of course the premarital sex. Actually let me be specific (EVERYONE of his friends was involved in either sleeping around with their girlfriends or they would be getting hookers). Does that make these things norms? Or even common IN ALL OF PAKISTAN?
*NO. Period. *
I think there are a group of people in Pakistan who are highly influenced by Western media, and for some reason that's the group which is also all over Pakistani media and Pak limelight. But within this mess somehow the true culture and the real norms of Pakistan get completely forgotten.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Thank you mirage for having the courage to state what you have seen so that it doesnt seem as though Im the only one who is talking abt this stuff and that it isnt common.
By saying something is "common" may be understood by some people as something is "acceptable" ... on the other hand if we recognise that a problem is becoming more common with a mind to correct it ... then we should correct it, by keeping the taboo in tact. I feel we can become more concerned with breaking "taboos" than we are at resolving problems. My understanding is that the "taboo" itself is not a factor that creates the problem, but it does supress it ... alongside the taboo we need to guide people to the wisdom in "avoiding" such things.
For years we have been bombarded with love songs and relationship dramas ... I would not be surprised if zina is widespread in Pak. But I try to express the topic in a way where the taboo is preserved.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
My SO was born/ raised/ and lived there for 23 years. He did see all the dating in colleges, the inappropriate clothing on girls, the hugging/kissing between opposite gender, and of course the premarital sex. Actually let me be specific (EVERYONE of his friends was involved in either sleeping around with their girlfriends or they would be getting hookers). Does that make these things norms? Or even common IN ALL OF PAKISTAN?
I second that. Just because every other person seems to be sleeping around/drinking/etc etc - doesn't mean we all are.
I've often come across people who come from Pakistan (usually the newly-arrived ones obv) who are surprised when they meet me as they think we've all lost our morals and are opening making out with black guys in the streets etc etc. Dramatic I know, but I do think people do also have pre-conceived notions about what they think we are up to. I consider myself a practising muslim, i'm very close to my family and I think I have quite islamic values.
BUT it also doesn't mean I live in dream land and assume everything is happy-happy joy-joy - I know many Pakistani girls and boys who sleep around and disregard their islamic values - but it doesn't mean that I will automatically follow.
I also don't mean to say that it's not happening more commonly though, cos it's definitely a different issue that it was say 50, 20 or even 10 years ago.
Perhaps it also could be that people's attitudes have adapted, and maybe it's not the case that it's happening more commonly but that people are talking about it a bit more openly that they used to in previous years?
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
Those in Pakland would understand me when I say that there is a rape of the Hijaab taking place in colleges and universities and even otherwise. Where a hijaab is donned simply to conceal identity when being whisked away in unknown cars.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
I'm still shocked that there are some Muslims who drink and have intimate relationships in Pakistan.
I think I'm sheltered or something since it always amazes me when I hear stories from people who live there.
Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble
** ^ You know what Enig, the conservative most who consider it a taboo have it even more. And I am saying this on the basis of very very close observation.** Again, referring to the last para of your post, I wonder what if you are next, because in your nativity, you just pointed at something which is again a norm, BUT you know where it will lead to... If some people on here want to live in their make believe world, let them be. It hurts like hell to see your society bleeding with practices like these, but is the denial any better?
Those in Pakland would understand me when I say that there is a rape of the Hijaab taking place in colleges and universities and even otherwise. Where a hijaab is donned simply to conceal identity when being whisked away in unknown cars.