Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

Lifestyle Relationships
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So here’s a question. I have noticed that there are a number of people around who really like to act holier than thou and want others to believe so. There is no dearth of such people in Pakistan, so I guess it’s not surprising that there are a number on the forum as well. The question is, how many of you accept that there may be a lot going on in our very culture, in our social circles, perhaps even in our own lives that is not in strict accordance to either culturally accepted norms or Islam? How many of you know for a fact that a lot goes on behind closed doors and not so many closed doors in Pakland and therefore judgement and advice from a high moral ground while principally ideal and correct may not apply?

How many are aware of the prevalent “social depravity” found in almost any social strata of Pakistani peoples? I do realise that a bunch of you live abroad and therefore might be cut off from what goes on “under the hood” but surely you have a clear perspective of how Pakland has changed or is different from what we would like to believe?

This does stem from the incredulity I faced (:wave: @Sweet i.f.) when relating a particular tale about an acquaintance. As hard as it may be to believe, this all is quite common in Pakland.

The only reason you havent heard about it, is because you choose not to.

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Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

"quite common"?!? so you're saying that the majority indulge in zina/ haram relationships and there are but a few parheizgaar folks left in Pakistan?

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Im living in pakistan. Are u?

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And Im assuming any boyfriend girlfriend relationship is to be called haraam right? Since that's not allowed? I dont think you'd meet any guy or girl beyond 20 who isnt either in one/or has been in one/will be in one. The degree of physicality may vary. From holding hands, to hugs and kisses, to the works. But all that is haraam right? Even to be in a rship?

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^
I am. but I don't really understand, where did you get this idea from???
I won't say Pakistan is really the land of pure...sadly far from that...but still such practices being common is a far fetched idea IMHO.
Yes I did suffer the shock when i moved back from EU to Pak after almost a decade, but now I'm pretty clear about the ins and outs of this society, i think.

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Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

yup, live in Pakistan :)

and yes, i agree that the number of people taking part in pre-martial relations (to whatever degree) in increasing in pakistan. but i dont agree to it being that common, i still dont think we've lost our deen to that an extent just yet (we'll surely get there thanks to our modernisation drive!).

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Please dont get me wrong I am not saying that we've lost deen completely. All I am saying is that certain things are becoming more and more common, quite common, so much so that it really isnt much to gasp at anymore when you hear of couples who get physical. It isnt an anomaly, it's one of those common things. I work in the hospitals and Ive seen so many girls come in for abortions! Unmarried!

There are certain strata where it is more prevalent, but I do believe that the only reason for that is that the others hide it better.

There was a time when divorce was unheard of in our society. Now when you hear of someone's engagement breaking, marriage breaking you shrug it off because you've heard of so many others. It's hurtful to hear but there are so many more instances now that you are able to take it in stride compared to how you would have reacted before.

The society is definitely changing (for the better or worse thats another discussion for another day) but the thing is, that certain responses to incidents that occur seem like they are coming from people who believe in a utopian ideal pakland and that simply isnt true

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I think to really know abt these things you need to have a finger on the pulse so to speak.
And the pulse is the younger crowd aged 18-24. To have a finger on the pulse you either need to gain their trust, or know someone who is part of that age group to know what really goes on. Unfortunately or fortunately, to be able to carry on like this in pakland you need to play a dual role. Society does condemn this , especially the older generations. And kids have got this dual role down to a T.

Doesnt mean that you need to be fooled.

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Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

Well this world is full of strange things...

However Paksitan is no different to the rest of the world. Other cultures face the same troubles we do...

Speaking of my home area in the Northern half of Pakistan I was there a few Months back and I grew up there before I came to Britian.

In the villages things are changing but the old guard is still there and there are still many old school people around like myself who are not actually that old but yet we are very close to our old ways.

In the Cities things change faster but even there you will still find some people sticking to thier old ways...

In Britian too not all Desi folks have adopted the Western attitudes the OP describes.

Now heres the nub of the matter... those that are sticking to the high moral horses are they right to look down on the less noble deeds of thier brethren?

I used to think yes. I used to have that holier than thou attitude a lot, I sometimes still feel the twitch in my blood when you hear about dis-honourable things and just want to rage.

However patience really is a virtue and while we may all be cut from the same cloth... some of us are still rewfusing to be ironed out.

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Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

Very valid points Faris Ud Din. At the end of the day we really are responsible for our own actions and perhaps to a certain extent those of our loved ones. We can guide them and watch over them. I can understand how things might not change so much in the northern areas. it is to a major extent due the lack of corruption of morality as our culture dictates it to be. In cities, there is too much awareness of what goes on in the world, too much influence which makes it much more difficult to raise the younger generation with stronger values.

And the thing is, you cannot really tell if you managed to do it right, because you still might not know what theyre upto.

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Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

Demesne, I'm actually part of that group...Though I myself don't fall in this age bracket anymore, all my classmates and group of friends do belong to this group. I do come across things I find strange n don't really approve of, but Alhamdulillah never heard of anything like this being sooo common. There are a few rumours we get to hear about a few individuals every now n then but those are far from being common.
I understand, you work in hospitals and might not be totally wrong...BUT I think you are applying your observations to a much bigger picture.:)
Since we are on an open forum, statements like yours might lead to some really base less assumptions.

Sorry, I don't really like to argue :) just wanted to get the facts straight.

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I think role models are an important thing too. I grew up in the 80s a time in which Pakistani culture was facing drastic changes.

80's Pakistan was a hotspot for young men but there was a lot of oppurtunity too becuase both in Pakistan and outside there was so much work and the nation had lots to offer.

The army back than as now was a major institution and I kind of followed the footsteps of my elders. Thing is I found myself in a bit of a unique time lapse becuase my friends outside the Army went abroad and changed much quicker. In my late teens I grew up with Old 60s Pakistani films played in the barracks I got to learn a lot of things from elder troopers and we all had a strong comraderie despite the age gaps becuase we all had simmilar values.

While my friends were aquinted with Disco dancing and Saturday night fever, I was very much in the far flung hostile areas in places as scattered as Quetta, Dir, Chitral, Kashmir with the occasional posting to Karachi being the only get away and chance to mingle with new people. I think Islamabad was still a new town rather than city back then and things were not as advanced as today.

But the whole time my role models were totally different to my friends and so was the way we percieved the world. Rock music was seen by my friends as an excuse to have a whale of a time... but since I was aquinted more with lyrics than the tune I used to decipher it as different meanings.
Likewise films which portrayed things they saw as exciting I would see as villanous becase in older films the bad guys were always the dirty ones and the good guys did pardah... how times change.

But suprisingly my Wife was born and raised in the UK and she never experienced any of the old school stuff but to her it still had the romantic appeal... I suppose her fammily was very religous and as she was a girl they had more control of her movements... had she been a man perhaps she would not have lived such a sheltered life.

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Re: Saddle up your high horses, Here comes Trouble

hmmm I guess I could agree with you if I factor in the villages and the far flung cities. I think in the major cities however, it is pretty prevalent. :) Is that a better assumption?

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^
LOL...I guess I'll leave you at that. :) Isloo IS a village when compared to Lahore, afterall :D

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haha please ignore any thread i make if its title is "pakistan is full of sick people" . my exposure is generally hospitals and clinics. :P i see a lot of that too :)

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Yeah I suppose its a generalisation as well though becuase some villages are more stringent than others in how they practice thier traditions.

I remember back home when I went to one village that was divided from my home village by a river... the lads were playing in Western clothes but across the river the folks were playing in old shalwar kameez and both did so out of choice and personal preferances rather than the geological divide which was what I had assumed...

Even in some cities you will find quarters where people of different cultural and ethnic beliefs will be living aside to religious differences.

For example Rawalpindi has several notable places of vice but at the same time like Karachi you will also find sufi mohollas if you know where to look.

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check ur inbox :P

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Abdullah ibn Masud, said: "the Prophet (saw) said 'Islam began as something strange, and it will revert to being strange as it was in the beginning, so good tidings to the strangers.' Some asked, 'Who are the strangers?' He said, 'The ones who break away from their people (literally, 'tribes') for the sake of Islam.'" (Sahih Muslim, Ibn Majah)

Yes, Haraam will become the norm. Does that mean we stop thinking that haraam is haraam and make is 'halal' and 'normal'? Islam will be become strange and people who denounce the haraam 'norms' will become the wierd and strange ones who don't fit into the society.

Does this mean we stick to our grounds and base our ethics and morals on what the prophet SAW wanted us to? Or we follow the ways of society and it's norms?

Even if we do a haraam act, we should still 'think' it is haraam. Who are we to change the haraam into the halal. For example, if you drink alchohol you should know that you are committing a haraam act and not argue it to be 'normal' or halal to justify your actions.

Same with having a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Even if everyone and his dog is doing this in pakistan, india, china or whatever country it may be the 'norm' but norm does not equal to halal. If someone speaks against it, it doesn't mean they are a hypocrite, goody two shoes or on their high horse just because they don't want to be desensitized to these actions. Again ponder over this

Abdullah ibn Masud, said: "the Prophet (saw) said 'Islam began as something strange, and it will revert to being strange as it was in the beginning, so good tidings to the strangers.' Some asked, 'Who are the strangers?' He said, 'The ones who break away from their people (literally, 'tribes') for the sake of Islam.'" (Sahih Muslim, Ibn Majah).

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disagree

there is a huge population of lower and lower middle class where no such thing/concept exists

merely because they dont have the time/resources/knowledge to know all this bf/gf business

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completely agree, my problem with society is that we have no accept it - you can see how openly we talk about bf/gf and their physical relationships

that scares mean the most is if we keep on going down this path and our sons and daughters will be out age, we would have reached the point of no return

if we are at this stage, our sons and daughters will be 10 steps ahead - and we wont be able to do anything then, and sadder part is infront of Allah swt we and our parents will be held responsible for all the mess