At one point, he replied to Dr Atta that just like in a regular car, the battery recharges from the running engine.
Dr Atta did no say anything. But actually in a regular car, the engine is run on petrol/diesel.
Thus it is petrol/diesel which recharges the battery. Secondly, the amount of input given by battery to run the regular engine is small because it is only used to run the spark plugs.
But what he is saying is that battery itself starts the engine cycle through electrolysis, and then the battery gets recharged from engine. This is what makes it a perpetual motion machine. And this is why it is impossible.
In separating molecules the energy is used, but when they are combined does it dissipate less energy or more energy? Take a case of nuclear bomb, it takes few neutrons for fission reaction, then the rays it emits produces again three neutrons and creates a chain reaction. The explosion of nuclear device creates a temperature equal to the temperature at surface of the sun. Do you know what is critical mass? One Kg of u-235 can produce so much energy that it can destroy whole city. More over these rays energizes any material including human body and start decomposing body at atomic level. Hydrogen bomb is even more powerful than atom bomb. Another example is nuclear power plant. Do you know how much reactors take energy to create electrical power which can light a number of cities? You claimed to be a mechanical engineer, have ever studied nuclear engineering? What that poor fellow said make some sense. He demonstrated his invention to a number of people. None has so far said anything. Your Attaur-Rehman is an arrogant SOB. He should have come down and try this car by himself then should comment. Stupid.
Why are you jumping up and down? Guy belongs to rural Sindh though this poor guy said that he is Pakistani first than Sindhi, is already creating a pain in the nucleus for some, forgetting that in this group is also an urdu speaking software engineer.
In ancient Greece once all the scholars and people were arguing on number of teeth in mouth of horse, everyone have its claims backed up by the theory and the argument was turning into a heated debate when a young man proposed a simple and practical solution, i.e. let us count the teeth in a mouth of horse.... this solution instead of calming them ignited debaters uniting them against the solution provider and ultimately killing him for providing such simple solution
We are doing the same here... like i said, the guy is open and he is claiming that his invention works, whereas all of us here and other places are not looking into if the thing is working or not, they are all busy in theory...
We are only 'analyzing' the claim using the knowledge we have, not all of us can reach out to the guy and make experiments to validate his claims. There are many possible test cases which can validate his claim, simply take a car, empty its fuel tank (barring a 0.1-0.2 liter) install this kit and drive around to see how long it drives. Simple.
We are only 'analyzing' the claim using the knowledge we have, not all of us can reach out to the guy and make experiments to validate his claims. There are many possible test cases which can validate his claim, simply take a car, empty its fuel tank (barring a 0.1-0.2 liter) install this kit and drive around to see how long it drives. Simple.
Actually Hamid Mir and Talat should have given him their own cars. That would have been more credible.
...Guy belongs to rural Sindh though this poor guy said that he is Pakistani first than Sindhi, is already creating a pain in the nucleus for some, forgetting that in this group is also an urdu speaking software engineer.
Now what is it supposed to be? You objected to my post for giving it a Zardari-IK turn, and now here you simply cannot help bring in the ethnic card. Now in a while you will start sobbing about PPP's sacrifies...
For God sake don't pollute this thread IK Vs Zardari. Keep this discussions scientific rather than political.
tsk tsk tsk. Did YOU keep the discussion scientific in your own post no. 41?
You called Atta ur Rahman MY doctor. And started this Urdu-Sindhi thing there.
sachaydino:
[quote] Guy belongs to rural Sindh though this poor guy said that he is Pakistani first than Sindhi,** is already creating a pain in the nucleus for some, forgetting that in this group is also an urdu speaking software engineer**
[/quote]
Are you saying that this really is perpetual motion machine?
In fact you seem to be saying that it creates MORE ENERGY than it gets from its original source (battery).
If this is what you say then it is against the Law of Conservation of Energy, which says “the total amount ofenergy in an isolated system remains constant over time”.
Not even Agha Waqar say that he is creating more energy than the input from battery. In Capital Talk July 31, he said at one point: “hum itni energy generate kar paate hein jitni gaarri ko chalne ke liye darkaar hoti he”.
Why is Attaur Rahman MINE?
A lot of people have “come down and tried” this car. But running the car does not prove anything. In Capital Talk July 31, Dr Atta said that this car should be scrutinized in detail by people working on fuel cell technology from Pak’s top universities.
Now that is how it should be proved or disproved.
Just him running the car means nothing. Everyone has already seen the demonstration on TV.
My first reaction was that the guy is full of it. I am still doubtful that he's got anything unique or that all his tall claims will stand.
However, I thought Dr. Atta's arguments were kinda weak. Wouldn't the combustion of the fuel also release energy, which was not supplied by the battery but was inherent in the fuel?
My understanding is that the tube he used to store Hydrogen had enough gas in it for the demonstration. However, I doubt that continuous electrolysis would provide enough fuel to sustain longer drives.
However, I thought Dr. Atta's arguments were kinda weak. Wouldn't the combustion of the fuel also release energy, which was not supplied by the battery but was inherent in the fuel?
In other words, we get more energy out of this closed loop system then we give it initially through battery. If this is true in a closed loop system then the Law of Conservation of Energy has just been broken.
Congratulations. He deserves a nobel prize for this remarkable feat.
If there is more energy being created in the cycle then it ceases to be a closed loop system. The system is no longer in equilibrium, and excess energy must be taken out of the system in the exact amount that it was created; if this is to be a self-sufficient closed loop system.
How is he taking out this excess energy? And if he is not taking it out then why is everything not exploding due to this excess energy?
What are you trying to say? No one is saying that hydrogen can not be used to run an engine. Main problem is the manner in which is creating hydrogen (using a 12V battery).
The article you quoted also says that there are differences between a hydrogen engine and gasoline engine. But he is claiming to use the same gasoline engine for combustion of hydrogen. Didn't he say that water kit is used in an engine just like a CNG kit?
I am not an engineer or scientist but i believe in (somewhat) efficient markets.
If this claim was true, there would be a long line of investors outside his door. Mir Shakil ur Rahman should invest and make billions, if such a technology exists.
What are you trying to say? No one is saying that hydrogen can not be used to run an engine. Main problem is the manner in which is creating hydrogen (using a 12V battery).
The article you quoted also says that there are differences between a hydrogen engine and gasoline engine. But he is claiming to use the same gasoline engine for combustion of hydrogen. Didn't he say that water kit is used in an engine just like a CNG kit?
That's what I was trying to point out. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. For you to use Hydrogen, you'd have to modify the engine as per wikipedia, while this guy says he made no such modifications.
You seem overly agressive in this thread for some reason? What's up? Let's just discuss based on our understanding. I said I was doubtful of his claims.
We are only 'analyzing' the claim using the knowledge we have, not all of us can reach out to the guy and make experiments to validate his claims. There are many possible test cases which can validate his claim*, simply take a car, empty its fuel tank (barring a 0.1-0.2 liter) install this kit and drive around to see how long it drives.* Simple.
That is true. I don't understand why he has not converted another car for demonstration.
This raises the question. What is so special about this particular car, if water kit can be installed in every car just like a CNG kit?!
Every engineer and scientist has been riding in this car and yet not a single one of them has raised this basic question.
I saw Dr Pervaiz Rasheed (Chairman PCSIR). Hamid Mir asked him if this is a fraud. He said it doesn't look like it because he has seen demonstration himself and did not find anything wrong in the car. But quite conveniently, he did not reply to objections raised by Dr Atta, and instead said that things like this should be encouraged, blah blah.
He also said that PCSIR has offered any hardware he wants for further experiments, but interestingly did not offer any help in clarifying the physics of the system.
You seem overly agressive in this thread for some reason? What's up? Let's just discuss based on our understanding. I said I was doubtful of his claims.
I don't think I am overly aggressive. I have been discussing it only based on science.
I might have looked like aggressive to you because I thought that you quoted that thing to prove your previous point about getting more energy out of system.
Sorry about that.
In other words, we get more energy out of this closed loop system then we give it initially through battery. If this is true in a closed loop system then the Law of Conservation of Energy has just been broken.
Congratulations. He deserves a nobel prize for this remarkable feat.
If there is more energy being created in the cycle then it ceases to be a closed loop system. The system is no longer in equilibrium, and excess energy must be taken out of the system in the exact amount that it was created; if this is to be a self-sufficient closed loop system.
How is he taking out this excess energy? And if he is not taking it out then why is everything not exploding due to this excess energy?
I did study thermodynamics but that was some time ago. Didn't like it a whole lot and therefore didn't pay any more attention than was needed to clear the course.
What I was trying to say was that the chemical energy of hydrogen is not supplied by the battery. It is inherent in hydrogen. This is the energy that is being converted to mechanical energy through combustion in the engine.
Let's forget this guy. If we separate and then store hydrogen in a tank, as is done in hydrogen powered vehicles, we can use it to power a vehicle right? Would you say that we had to supply more energy to produce this hydrogn than we can get by comubsting it in the engine? I'm just throwing ideas out there.
Let's forget this guy. If we separate and then store hydrogen in a tank, as is done in hydrogen powered vehicles, we can use it to power a vehicle right? Would you say that we had to supply more energy to produce this hydrogn than we can get by comubsting it in the engine? I'm just throwing ideas out there.
Of course we can get more energy than the initial energy we used to start the process. Little energy is required to start a fire, for example, than the energy produced when the whole forest starts burning.
But all such are open loop systems. It won't be a closed loop system like the one Agha Waqar is demonstrating.
In order for the system to run without intervention (that is, adding or removing energy), it has to be closed loop.
It has been long since I studied thermodynamics as well. So I have to brush up my knowledge about it as well.
…please carry on 