Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
101

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

[quote]

We either believe in the second coming or not ... there are plenty of hadith that reached us at the same time as these verses regarding descent ... it is our responsibility to reconcile them with the holy Qur'an. It is not suitable for us to ignore them. Since the Qur'an does not conflict with them then we should accept them ... we have the chain of authentic scholarly teachings there may be some stray opinions, but the reason why the ummah believes that Isa (AS) will come again is because this was the belief of the early Muslims.

[/quote]

Yes, it is our responsibility to reconcile those hadiths with Quran not the other way around. First comes Quran. If Quran has given its clear verdict on some issue then no one has the right to give it a new meaning in the light of hadiths or other sources. We need to look at hadiths in the light of Quran and making sure that we are not going against the word of Allah. If Quran declares a person among dead then it is not appropriate to accept his coming again and give a unique meaning to him being dead.
As far as hadiths are concerned, I am not rejecting them but they need to be understood. There are no reliable hadiths that tell us that Isa (as) is alive up in the heavens or was ascended to heavens/skies or even that he (as) will descend from heaven/sky. The wording used for coming of messiah is not limited to physically descending. Quran is witness to this fact. I am referring to word ‘NAZAL’. Moreover, there is clear difference between the physical appearance of Isa (as) ibn mariam and the one who will come in his name. While explaining appearance of prophets during miraj, the holy prophet (pbuh) mentioned (فااحمر جعد ) red color with curly hair [Bukhari book bada ul Khalaq] and when referring to Messiah who will come in connection with dajjal, imam malik in his Mauta and then bukhari mentions ‘a person with best of wheatish color and straight hair’
As far as your assertion that Quran is not against someone dwelling up in the heavens and his coming back from there to this world. Here is one of the evidence against this very concept:
17:93)….’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.’
In response to demands of prophet (pbuh) going to heavens and coming back with a book. The demands are frivolous in character and Allah is above such frivolities. As for their demands pertaining to the holy prophet (pbuh) , they are incompatible with his limited powers as a human being and his mission as a prophet of Allah.
when we attribute ascent and descent to Isa (as), do we consider him more than just a human and a messenger of Allah

102

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

The concept of Jesus (as) living up in the heavens and his return actually supports the idea of him (as) being a deity. Here is how:

  1. At the time of danger, Allah helped the messengers keeping them in this world. Examples of Mosa (as), Yousaf (as), Ibrahim (as) and our holy prophet (pbuh) are before us. The uniqueness that is attributed to Isa (as) is that he (as) was taken to heavens when his life was in danger.
  2. As per Quran, as we become old, we get weaker but the rule that is applicable to all including all messengers is not applicable to Isa (as) as he is still young even after passage of 2000+ years. He is unique in this way. Pls refer to 36:68 i.e., “And him whom We grant long life — We revert him to a weak* condition of *creation. Will they not then understand?”
  3. He will descend from the heavens with angels. He is unique in this way. No other prophet came to the world in this way.
  4. No other prophet came to this world for the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] time. He is unique in this way.
  5. When Christians presented the argument of divinity of Jesus (as) as his birth was fatherless, example of Adam (as) was put forward to refute their claim of this extra-ordinary uniqueness. If his ascent and future descent is not contested and that was the belief of the holy prophet (pbuh) then Isa (as) is unique in this way.
103

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

Who says that this innahu refers to Qur'an? Please show me and is this difference of opinion one where there is no 'ijma'.

104

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace again

If I start a discussion here about how Hadith and Qur'an are reconciled it will distract us from the topic. My point will be that when I say reconcile Hadith with Qur'an I mean it to be to extract an understanding where both are valid. However, you have not said that, you are clearly happy to reject Hadith if your understanding based on Qur'an is conflicting with that Hadith. My position will hold the Hadith and the Qur'an higher than my own personal understanding but yours will not. My stance also acknowledges that many meanings are present, whereas you are less likely to consider those and from the thread it is clear you only choose to do that when it suits your understanding.

105

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

Call Isa (AS) unique in that aspect of his prophethood, yes ... But to say that this uniqueness qualifies him as That Unique ... Is wrong. I merely have to point out the various actions such as eating and sleeping done by Isa (AS) to qualify him as human. This notion is totally absurd and you know it. So I would like to ask you where it was copied from, because to be honest you would not come up with such a poor argument all by yourself.

106

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

I do not see any point above as weak arguments.

I'm constantly reading this thread but not writing anything. I've had a long debate with psyah before if he remembers, and that thread is still there somewhere.

anyway, i really would like to get a response from anyone to mr. kchughtai's points

107

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr. Popat

1) The uniqueness of Isa (AS) is that he is born of no man, that he has his mission in two parts - all the prophets prayed to be given the chance to be ummatis of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... only Isa (AS)'s was accepted. The fact that he was protected by being taken at the time of the crucifixion is only to serve this end ...

The rest of the points I'll answer in a bit inshaAllah ...

P.S. In his second coming he will:

a) Kill the Dajjal
b) Supplicate against Yajuj and Majuj
c) Be a great military leader

108

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr. Popat

Now for other points:

[quote]

  1. As per Quran, as we become old, we get weaker but the rule that is applicable to all including all messengers is not applicable to Isa (as) as he is still young even after passage of 2000+ years. He is unique in this way. Pls refer to 36:68 i.e., “And him whom We grant long life — We revert him to a weak* condition of *creation. Will they not then understand.

  2. He will descend from the heavens with angels. He is unique in this way. No other prophet came to the world in this way.

  3. No other prophet came to this world for the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] time. He is unique in this way.

  4. When Christians presented the argument of divinity of Jesus (as) as his birth was fatherless, example of Adam (as) was put forward to refute their claim of this extra-ordinary uniqueness. If his ascent and future descent is not contested and that was the belief of the holy prophet (pbuh) then Isa (as) is unique in this way.
    [/quote]

  5. Ok for point number 2. Let's bring that verse - from Surah Yasin ...

***If We grant long life to any, We cause him to be reversed in nature: Will they not then understand?

***By the wisdom of the Qur'an, these words do not contradict my position about the belief of Isa (AS). For the following reasons:

a) kchughtai has interpreted what "we cause him to be reversed in nature" means ... I do not deny it, but literally these words do not take that meaning unless interpreted.

b) Based on the idea that the interpretation (of weakness and mentality) is the only correct understanding - even then the Arabic does not forbid exceptions ... there are many places in the Qur'an where absolutes have been written ... here is an example:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]

15:30

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together: Fasajada almala-ikatu kulluhum ajmaAAoon*a*

This type of grammatical construct means that there is emphasis over the quantity of the doers of the verb ... in this case ALL of the angels prostrated ... the next verse states 15:31 Except Iblis ...

Now ... in the verse provided by kchughtai there is no such grammatical restriction of "totality" in numbers when it describes that "people are reversed in long life" - you see as a result of forcing this idea of Isa (AS) not being taken up alive you are having us reduce other beliefs that we hold true ... which is that people become weak and feeble ... but not necessarily.

3) I said this before coming back from the heavens on the shoulders of two angels is not so unique that it qualifies for deity .. that is so absurd ... if you seriously believe that then you have no hope to work out whether Dajjal is true to his claims or not ... you will fall straight for his words ... when a man says "I'm God" you'll believe him ... The Deity does not come on the shoulders of angels - so High is He from all imperfection ...

4) Yes ... no other prophet came to Earth for the second time ... I've already explained that status of Isa (AS) above ... we consider Isa (AS) amongst the 5 highest ranked prophets.

5) The example of Adam (AS) was that he was made without both mother and father, but we should know that Huwa (AS) was made without mother and Isa (AS) without father ... In terms of going to heaven alive ... Idris (AS) and Muhammad (SAW) both qualify ... Idris (AS) after his death was given his life back and then went to Jannah, Muhammad (SAW) whilst alive went to Jannah and returned to his own people ... and Isa (AS) went to Jannah and shall be returned to "sheep of another pasture - Bible" - i.e. us the Ummah of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... the fact that Adam (AS) was more unique than Isa (AS) because he was first man and no other human was around at the time to say "Oh look he is unique" therefore the example of Adam (AS) was used ... in other words "uniqueness in human traits is not uniqueness to qualify as Deity" - The whole example you give strengthens my stance and weakens your own.

109

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mr.Popat – I, too have been following this debate with interest; admit it, that just like me, you are not neutral but a silent partisan with biased, emotional allegiance towards your own candidate (Mr. kchughtai).

In my biased opinion Brother ** psyah has answered every issue or point raised by **Mr. kchughtai **and I’ll understand if you think otherwise. I admire brother **psyah’s patience/endurance to address/refute and answer all the points raised by mr. kchughtai.

110

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Tafsir Jamiul Bayan by tabari reports that in this verse, according to some, 'INNA HU' pertains to Quran
Tafsir mualam ut tanzil also reports on the same lines. hazrat Hasan (ra) is reported to be one of those who have this opinion.

Also among the contemporary scholars,
Asad, Abdul-haleem, Amatul Rahman Omar, Hamid S. Aziz, Shabbir Ahmed have explicitly said Quran in their translations

others like Shakir, Pickthal, Ahmed Ali etc. have used terms like 'It is knowledge/sign of the Hour' , 'It is because knowledge of the Hour' etc.

111

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

(57. And when the son of Maryam is quoted as an example, behold, your people cry aloud thereat.) (58. And say: "Are our gods better or is he’’ They quoted not the above example except for argument. Nay! But they are a quarrelsome people.) (59. He was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.) (60. And if it were Our will, We would have made angels to replace you on the earth.) (61. And he shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour. Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me! This is the straight path.) (62. And let not Shaytan hinder you. Verily, he (Shaytan) to you is a plain enemy.) (63. And when `Isa came with clear proofs, he said: "I have come to you with Al-Hikmah, and in order to make clear to you some of that in which you differ. Therefore have Taqwa of Allah and obey me.‘’) (64. "Verily, Allah! He is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is the straight path.‘’) (65. But the sects from among themselves differed. So woe to those who do wrong from the torment of a painful Day!)

Ibn Kathir http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2077&Itemid=99#1Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:](QTafsir Tafsir Ibn Kathir Mobile)And when the example of the son of Maryam is given, your people laugh at it!
And they say, “Are our deities better or he?” They did not say this to you except to unjustly argue; in fact they are a quarrelsome people.
He is purely a bondman (of Ours), whom We have favoured upon, and We made him an extraordinary example for the Descendants of Israel.
And if We willed, We could have established angels on the earth instead of you.
And indeed Eisa is a sign of the Last Day*, therefore do not ever doubt in the Last Day, and obey Me**; this is the Straight Path. ( The advent of Prophet Eisa to earth for the second time. ** By obeying the Noble Messenger.)
*And do not ever let the devil stop you; he is indeed your open enemy.
And when Eisa came to them with clear signs, he said, “I have come to you with wisdom, and to explain to you some of the matters regarding which you dispute; therefore fear Allah, and obey me.”
**

Yusuf Ali:**
When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!](QTafsir Tafsir Ibn Kathir Mobile)And they say, “Are our gods best, or he?” This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.
He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.
(Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.
When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.
**
Pickthal:**](QTafsir Tafsir Ibn Kathir Mobile)And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! the folk laugh outAnd say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk.
He is nothing but a slave on whom We bestowed favour, and We made him a pattern for the Children of Israel.
And had We willed We could have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth.
And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.And let not Satan turn you aside. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.When Jesus came with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), he said: I have come unto you with wisdom, and to make plain some of that concerning which ye differ. So keep your duty to Allah, and obey me.

You wrote this

I trust this is correct …

Tabari may have reported that … what was his personal opinion on this matter? Otherwise look to the whole context it flows better when you consider that it means Isa (AS) … and even if we assume it means Qur’an by taking this meaning it does not negate the second coming, however by taking it to mean Isa (AS) it gives support for the second coming. With this support and many ahadith to back up the second coming it should be no wonder which of the two has gathered consensus from the scholars … there is 'ijma on this matter you have merely quoted a difference of opinion of some people but the vast majority assert that it means Isa (AS).

As for others who write “it is a knowledge of the hour” they have merely translated the word innahu as it is … without trying to bring the dhameer hu in to any form of interpretation. Looking at Shakir’s translation http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/translations/shakir/043.htm
To me the “it” here refers to either the description of Isa (AS) or the fact that people will mock at the Qur’an, rather than taking the meaning of the Qur’an itself … in fact the “it” can take a number of meanings none of which negate the other … so innahu could actually mean a plethora of things without negating the commonly understood meaning of Isa (AS).

As I said before to reconcile the Hadith and Qur’an does not mean placing my understanding of Qur’an higher than the hadith, but to look at hadith and look at Qur’an and arrive at an understanding that satisfies both … if I can’t then I still don’t reject the hadith, but I look for a basis for an exception to the rule and so on … So far from what I have seen you do not reconcile at all.

112

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

.

113

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

A few pending things. It is better to post it here as you are drumming that I reject hadith

Regarding 5:117, hadith is mentioned in Bukhari kitab-ut-tafseer. Pls note that:

  1. As I mentioned earlier, the holy prophet (pbuh) used exactly the same wording as is attributed to Isa (as) in 5:117 and actually said that I will say what a pious man (jesus(as)) said. The holy prophet (pbuh) referred to the saying of Isa (as) as ‘FA AQULU KAMA QALA…” i.e., ‘I will say AS Jesus (as) said…”. So same meaning should be used for both prophets.
  2. In this hadith, the holy prophet (pbuh) clears himself from the responsibility of the acts of those people (in his (pbuh) absence) who were being taken to hell by stating the words of Jesus (as) mentioned in the holy Quran.
  3. Mentioning of this hadith in kitab-ut-tafseer under the subject verse says it all. No deliberations or new meanings by any Allama acceptable when we have it from the higher authority.

[quote]

Isa (AS) mademention of the fact that he (AS) is not worthy of worship by stating hisinability to know to the ghaib from what Allah (SWT) had not revealed to him(AS).
It has nothingto do with an alleged obliviousness to what happened on the Earth after he (AS)left.

[/quote]

You are stretchingyour imagination quite a bit. Let us take another look:
He did not say that‘I am not worthy of worship’. Instead he said ‘How could have I said that whichI have no right….I said nothing to them except to which you commanded me.Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord’. So he didn’t say even close to that ‘Iam not worthy of worship since I don’t know about ‘ghaib’. Why would he have toexplain this to Allah in support of his not being a deity? That’s weird.

114

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

I am not finished with what I have to say in response. so pls hold your replies for now.

115

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

116

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Its not a matter of being biased or having emotional allegiance towards whoever. Though, my point of view is shared with kchughtai, but that by no means mean that i just read his posts and neglect psyah's or anyone elses posts who repond to kchughtai.

Theres no point of me writing same thing over and over that brother kchughtai has written it before.. and i've read brother psyah's replies to them but sad to say, he just speculates. His answers are not satisfying. Most of the time , he does not reply with Quranic references to refute our points, but rather starts questioning about interpretations etc.

I can start posting on this thread, if you too decide to contribute.. or else it will be taken as me and kchughtai attacking psyah's views. If not, then i'd rather stay quiet.

117

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are saying here. What is there a need of arabic grammar here? and what is there a need of 15:31 here? You say theres no restriction of totality in the above verse from surah Yasin ?
Lets analyse the verse once more.

***If We grant long life to any, We cause him to be reversed in nature: Will they not then understand?

If he grants long life to anyone , He cause him to be reversed in nature. Meaning, whoever reaches a certain age, say 70, 80 years of age, Allah reverse their condition. Reverse as in a condition of a child. In that verse, Allah says whoever he grants long life.. theres no mention of 'except Isa AS' or anything like that.

[QUOTE]
3) I said this before coming back from the heavens on the shoulders of two angels is not so unique that it qualifies for deity .. that is so absurd ... if you seriously believe that then you have no hope to work out whether Dajjal is true to his claims or not ... you will fall straight for his words ... when a man says "I'm God" you'll believe him ... The Deity does not come on the shoulders of angels - so High is He from all imperfection ...
[/QUOTE]

Isa(AS) has the power to come down from the heavens on the shoulders of angels. There has never been an instance where Allah literally sent down a prophet to earth on the shoulders of 2 angels. This whole belief is very absurd. Killing of dajjal is a totally different concept so i will not touch upon that.

[QUOTE]
4) Yes ... no other prophet came to Earth for the second time ... I've already explained that status of Isa (AS) above ... we consider Isa (AS) amongst the 5 highest ranked prophets.

5) The example of Adam (AS) was that he was made without both mother and father, but we should know that Huwa (AS) was made without mother and Isa (AS) without father ... In terms of going to heaven alive ... Idris (AS) and Muhammad (SAW) both qualify ... Idris (AS) after his death was given his life back and then went to Jannah, Muhammad (SAW) whilst alive went to Jannah and returned to his own people ... and Isa (AS) went to Jannah and shall be returned to "sheep of another pasture - Bible" - i.e. us the Ummah of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... the fact that Adam (AS) was more unique than Isa (AS) because he was first man and no other human was around at the time to say "Oh look he is unique" therefore the example of Adam (AS) was used ... in other words "uniqueness in human traits is not uniqueness to qualify as Deity" - The whole example you give strengthens my stance and weakens your own.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to talk about meraaj or Hazrat Idris(AS). Ok, so they both went to heavens and came back.. fair enough.. whats the matter with Jesus(AS)? He is in heavens alive with Moses, Yahya and other prophets whose spirits are in heaven but their bodies remained on earth.. and he saw Muhammad PBUH being born in front of Him, getting in His youth , getting revelations, and finally saw him dying. He was just up there watching it all ? When Prophet Muhammad PBUH was getting revelations from Allah, was Gabriel also going to Jesus (AS) and giving him the same revelations and teaching him Islam ? If He was not, then how will he ever know what Quran is ? how will He ever know Muhammadi shariya?
If and when he returns, will Gabriel come again with the same teachings that were given to Muhammad PBUH 1450 years ago ?

Yes, uniqueness in human traits does not qualify as diety, but Allah also says he does not go against his sunnah. If whatever has happened earlier in history and its written in Quran, then for sure it can happen again. Adam was born without father and mother, therefore Jesus was born in similar way, both written in Quran. But if you give a certain prophet or a person such high rank and give him the kind of tasks that has never been done before by anyone (without being a prophet ,as you say ) then sir, you are giving that person a rank next to God. I see no reason why people wont take him as God.

Note : im trying to stick to the topic as much as i can. Though, i do have many questions about what you said above.. i.e : topic of meraaj, when u said Muhammad PBUH qualified for going to heaven (bodily ).. then you said Adam was the first man on earth etc.. I had questions regarding that but i wont try derailing the topic in hand.

118

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr. Popat

Erm ... We are talking about Arabic grammar here and the ayah in question does not restrict other possibilities ... now how on Earth would you know what I'm talking about if you have not studied Arabic and you keep using the translation to assert that same point that I responded to?

:)

You say because something has never been done before (i.e. prophet descend on shoulders of two angels) then it is absurd ... why? Is it absurd because it has never been done before? Or because Allah (SWT) cannot do that or because it is a made up story? I can tell it is not made up ... it is present in scriptures of Islam and Christians an event which is categorical - the second coming.

Then you ask me absurd questions like "how will he ever know Muhammadi shariah?" - Does it matter to me to rationalise the sequence of events ... I could easily come up with 3 ways it is possible but will you accept them? No ... you will say that it is speculation ... however my point for speculating is not to show that it will happen that way ... but to show that it is not impossible like you assert it to be.

Your reasoning about a person being given unique gifts that have never before been given to anyone is like deification is such a false accusation and a position that neither you nor kchughtai have thought through ... nor the person who wrote those responses for you ...
Reason being at the time of Adam (AS) he was unique, no other like him yet he was not accused of being like God ... It is feeble mindedness to make such a claim ... Allah (SWT) is not contained in a body and given favours by another ... the claim you are making is ridiculous.

This thread is already derailed ... but don't worry I'll continue answering inshaAllah

119

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Ok .. please continue

120

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

i am sad ! I wrote such an extensive reply and when i clicked 'post quick reply' it asked for my username and password again, i typed it and then it just gave me a blank screen ! bad luck !
i'll post again tmr hopefully when i get time.