Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Absolutely the Jews were not able to kill Isa (as) by any means. no doubt about it. but how did you translate the green highlighted part. The word is 'SHUBIHA LAHUM' comes after 'They killed him not nor did they crucify him but (WA LAKIN)'.

Now there are two possibilities for SHUBIHA:
1) SHUBIHA relates to the very act of trying to kill. Jews were not able to kill him (Jesus(as)) nor did they crucify him BUT it appeared so to them.

2) SHUBIHA is against the very person in question i.e., Isa (as). Jews were not able to kill him (Jesus(as)) nor did they crucify him BUT he(as) was made to appear to them (like one killed or crucified).

Either the matter of killing of Jesus (as) was made dubious to jews OR
Jesus (as) was appeared to them as if they have killed him

There are no other possibilities. baqi aap ki marzi hai zabardasti jo chahein tarjuma kar lein. kisi tesrey ko kheinch key beech mein ley ayein to mein kiya kar sakta hoon

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Yes absolutely, I appreciate your thoughts and second them. :):biggthumb:

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

I would like to begin talking about 'Tawafi'

Thanks to psyah for pointing us to the root word ‘wafaa’ and many meanings as he tried to show us. If you look closely, basically, there are two meanings i.e., fully giving (that may be used in fulfilling an obligation, paying etc.) and fully taking. I am sorry to say but the dictionary that he referred to, added an additional word ‘up’ only to make the case of ascension of Jesus a valid and obvious one. There is no justification for this word here at all. Having said that I would say that my focus has been on the derivative ‘Tawaffi’ of a person by Allah (swt) in context to the verses on death or ascension of Jesus (as).

Here is a technical explanation that I got from one of our book. Its wording is highly technical and thick and I don’t think I can translate it well. So I am copying that statement as such.
“توفی باب تفعل کا مصدر ہے۔ سو قرآن کریم میں جہاں کہیں بھی اس کا کوی مشتق استعمال ہوا ہے جب اللہ تعالی یا ملاؑیکہ اس کا فاعل ہوں یا صیغہ مجہول ہو اور غایؑب مفعول اس کا انسان ہو تو سواےؑ قبضِ روح کے اور کوؑی معنی نہیں اور قبض روح بذریعہ موت ہے سواؑے اس مقام کے کہ جہاں لیل یا منام کا قرینہ موجود ہو تو وہاں قبض روح کو نیند ہی قرار دیا گیا ہےـ

So by default, if ‘Tawaffee’ is used for a person where Allah (swt) or angels are the ones doing the action then default meanings are “Qabz-e-Roh” and that is considered as death. Different meanings can only be taken if some additional information is available for instance, in the above verse, ‘Allah hu Yatawafa al-anfusa …’ is used with explicitly mentioning sleep and death. In the absence of such additional wording, default meaning will be taken and that is death. Quran is witness to this fact. Psyah asserted that ‘giving death’ is ‘poetic’ meaning. I would strongly disagree since ‘giving death’ is idiomatic translation (ba muhawara tarjama) not poetic. Quran has used this idiom many a times to denote death or taking soul which is considered to be death. Here are a few examples.

1) For our holy prophet (pbuh) in 10:46and 13:40
**
*010.046
*YUSUFALI:Whether We show thee (realised in thy life-time) some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy) (Before that),- in any case,to Us is their return: ultimately Allah is witness, to all that they do.
**PICKTHAL:Whether We let thee (O Muhammad) behold something of that which We promise themor (whether We) cause thee to die, still unto Us is their return, and Allah, moreover, is Witness over what they do.
SHAKIR:And if We show you something of what We threaten them with, or cause you to die, yet to Us is their return, and Allah is the bearer of witness to whatthey do.

013.040
**YUSUFALI:Whether We shall show thee (within thy life-time) part of what we promised themor take to ourselves thy soul (before it is all accomplished),- thy duty is to make (the Message) reach them: it is our part to call them to account.
**PICKTHAL:Whether We let thee see something of that which We have promised them, or make thee die (before its happening), thine is but conveyance (of the message). Ours the reckoning.

SHAKIR:And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you,while calling (them) to account is Our (business).

2) For Hazrat Yousaf (as)
012.101YUSUFALI:"O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."
PICKTHAL:O my Lord! Thou hast given me (something) of sovereignty and hast taught me(something) of the interpretation of events - Creator of the heavens and theearth! Thou art my Protecting Guardian in the world and the Hereafter. Makeme to die muslim (unto Thee), and join me to the righteous.
SHAKIR:My Lord! Thou hast given me of the kingdom and taught me of the interpretationof sayings: Originator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my guardian inthis world and the hereafter; make me die a muslim and join me with thegood.

3) The sorcerers after believing inMoses (as) and his message

007.126
**YUSUFALI:"But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)!
**PICKTHAL:Thou takest vengeance on us only for as much as we believed the tokens of ourLord when they came unto us. Our Lord! Vouchsafe unto us steadfastness and make us die as men who have surrendered (unto Thee).
SHAKIR:And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the communications of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord: Pour out upon us patience and cause us to die in submission.

2) Another Example
010.104) **YUSUFALI:Say: "O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, (behold!) I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah! But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of theBelievers,
**PICKTHAL:Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! If ye are in doubt of my religion, then (knowthat) I worship not those whom ye worship instead of Allah, but I worship Allah Who causeth you to die, and I have been commanded to be of the believers.
SHAKIR:Say: O people! if you are in doubt as to my religion, then (know that) I do notserve those whom you serve besides Allah but I do serve Allah, Who will cause you to die, and I am commanded that I should be of the believers.

Other examples are 2:234, 2:240, 3:193, 4:97, 7:37, 22:5,47:27 and many others. Quran is replete with examples where derivatives of ‘Tawaffi’ has been used to denote death and nowhere as taking fully up with body.

As far as I know there are two examples where ‘tawaffi’ has been employed to mean other than death i.e.,
*[6: 60] It is he, who takes you by night
* Here sleep is implied but for this purpose a supporting word ‘Lail’ (night) is used.

[39:42] God takes the spirits at the time of the death of (the souls), and in their sleep those(of the ones) that have not died
In the same verse, two form of ‘Tawaffi’ has been mentioned for death and sleep and for both cases explicit wording is there for differentiation i.e., ‘Mautiha’ (their death) and ‘Manamiha’ (their sleep)
So whenever ‘tawaffi’ based words are used for a person where Allah or Malaika are ‘Fa-il’ without any supporting word or words that provide additional information, Death is the default meaning always.

So the verses where Tawafee of Jesus (as) is mentioned, there mustbe some supporting words like ‘heaven/sky’ or ‘up’ or ‘bodily’ or ‘alive’ etc to shift the meaning from the default one i.e., death. FYI, no supporting words have been used in either verse. If you say that ‘rafa’ has been mentioned then it should be clear that ‘rafa’ of a person by Allah towards Allah is always translated as exaltation of status as I mentioned numerous examples for this.

*Conclusion:
*
1) Default meaning of 'Tawaffi' for a person is death and it is an idiom not poetry
2) Only two forms of 'Tawaffi' is mentioned in the holy Quran i.e., Death and Sleep
3) There is no legit basis to assume that 'Tawaffi' means 'taking alive up with body'

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

**Another Example of 'Tawaffi', Funeral Prayer

**۔۔۔ و َمَن تَوَفَّیُتَہ’ مِنَّا فَتَوَفَّہ’ عَلَی الُایمان
Whoever from among us dies, let him die adhering to the faith

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

great posts brother kchughtai :). You're not leaving me to write anything :)

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Thanks. A very good example. I was unaware of this one.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

OH bhai, zabardasti kon karha hai? Mai ya aap log? For thousand+ years this ummat is going strong beliving in the truth. Do you think 1000s of scholars for the past 1000+ years are wrong and people like you are right all of a SUDDEN? No. This is not how the world works. Mirza Ghulam was an imposter. End of discussion for me. No need encourage this thread mods.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Following links may help in understanding the issue.

Please have a look

[http://www.khatm-e-nubuwwat.org/ahmadies/Shubhaat Kay Jawabaat/P/index.htm

Welcome to Dawat Section For Ahmedies](Welcome to Dawat Section For Ahmedies)

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

This thread is not on Ahmadiyyat or Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as). This thread is not about Khatm-e-Nabuwat either. It is solely about beliefs about death or ascension and 2nd coming of Isa ibn mariam (as). So guys if you have anything to say relevant to the thread, pls communicate your views in a civil way. You will not get anything by insulting or abusing. Pls try to learn from LKK and Psyah

As far as beliefs of 1000+ years and 1000s of scholars believing is Isa (as) alive up in heaven is concerned. Then how about millions of christians who have been considering Isa (as) a son of God and they have been following these beliefs for around 2000 years or so. So does the age of their belief and their number make their beliefs genuine and true.
Moreover, belief in the death of Isa (as) is not a new belief that poped up all of a sudden. Many scholars even closer to the time of holy prophet (pbuh) believed in this.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

It is relevant as the ulema have answered similar objections on this very belief in these links.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

The default meaning of the word is taken from is lexical meaning ... tawaffi = "to take in full" - Wafatun commonly is used to mean death, but it is indeed an idiomatic form for the word mawt, which means it's literal meaning can be applicable in certain circumstances ... other linked words wafa, istifa, etc are linked to this central meaning they are not linked to the meaning of death directly ... since tawaffi is the masdar it will be the central link between all other derived words, if another word is required then either tawaffi is not the masdar or the meaning given to tawaffi is not death lexically.

It has already been established that tawaffi is used for sleep so why dwell on terms that can take multiple meanings?

Other places in the Qur'an clarify he Isa (AS) was not killed nor crucified ... and since Allah (SWT) instigates death even when people are being killed then to say - "we caused him to die" is a refutation that is redundant ... and since we cannot apply redundancy on the Qur'an since it is the Word of God we can only render the refutation of being killed as one of being saved ... saved completely ... not even touching the crucifix ... taken away in full - i.e. no harm came to him (AS).

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Sorry to come in the middle of the debate, but i was wondering about the event of Shab e meraaj. Prophet Muhammad PBUH have met Hazrat Mosa(AS) in the same heaven where He(SAW) met Jesus(AS). Though, what I really like to point your attention at is that Hazrat Muhammad PBUH have spoken to Moses(AS) many times, and it was Moses(AS) who advised Prophet Muhammad PBUH to go back to Allah to reduce the number of prayers which are farz on Muslims. It was 50 first, 25, then 5.. each time Muhammad PBUH was returning, Moses(AS) spoke to Muhammad PBUH.

My question is, do you think Moses(AS) is alive too in heavens? The possibility of Moses(AS) being alive is more, since He(AS) literally spoke to Muhammad PBUH, whereas, Muhammad PBUH only saw Jesus(AS).

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Heres the hadith:

[QUOTE]
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik said: Abu Dharr narrated that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The roof of my house was split open when I was in Makkah, and Jibreel (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came down and split open my chest and washed it with Zamzam water. Then he brought a golden vessel filled with wisdom and faith and poured it into my chest, then he sealed it. Then he took me by the hand and ascended with me into the lowest heaven. When I reached the lowest heaven Jibreel said to the gatekeeper, ‘Open up!’ He said, ‘Who is this?’ He said, ‘Jibreel.’ He said, ‘Is there anyone with you?’ He said, ‘Yes, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is with me.’ He said, ‘Has his mission begun?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ And when it was opened we went up into the lowest heaven… Then Allaah enjoined upon my ummah fifty prayers*,* *and I came back until I passed by Moosa who said, ‘What has Allaah enjoined upon your ummah?’ I said, ‘He has enjoined fifty prayers.’ He said, ‘Go back to your Lord, for your ummah will not be able to bear that.’ So I went back and He reduced it. Then I came back to Moosa and said, ‘He has reduced it.’ He said, ‘Go back to your Lord, for your ummah will not be able to bear that.’ So I went back and He reduced it further. Then I came back to Moosa and said, ‘He has reduced it further.’ He said, ‘Go back to your Lord, for your ummah will not be able to bear that.’ So I went back and He said, ‘(The prayers) are five but (the reward) is fifty. The Sentence that comes from Me cannot be changed [cf. Qaaf 50:29].’ Then I went back to Moosa and he said, ‘Go back to your Lord.’ But I said, ‘I feel shy before my Lord.’…” *

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 342; Muslim, 163
[/QUOTE]

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

^^ this hadith can also be provided to those who say that Meraaj was physical. If its physical, then we have no choice but to believe that Moses(AS) is alive as well, as there was no one else who spoke to Muhammad PBUH but Moses(AS). Now, if you say it was spiritual journey, then the question arises, that if Muhammad PBUH wasnt shown heaven when he was alive, then how could Jesus(AS)?
Please do reflect upon this thought genuinely.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

for the sake of knowledge Jesus – A Humble Prophet of God

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr Popat

Yes ... Musa (AS) is alive like all the prophets (AS) ... the difference between all the prophets except Isa (AS) is that they have tasted death and he Isa (AS) has not ...

Do not view death as if it is a permanent state ... those humans who die their souls move into barzakh, yet they are said to be localised in the vicinity of the grave, while their bodies remain on the Earth and become part of the Earth in time, the bodies of prophets do not however decay. Also, when it comes to the mi'raj although we believe it took place - it however was not a time bound event and cannot be presented in a chronology. The event was one where this reality was made to coincide with another. The proof of this is that Muhammad (SAW) saw a future event actually happening before him ... which was the scenes of hellfire ...

The mi'raj cannot be used as a basis for arguing the state of being of prophets since the whole journey betrays the normal laws that we experience today. Based on our normality Isa (AS) has been taken and will return at a later point in time. It is a theory that I have that since all of the prophets had talked about Muhammad (SAW) and that he would come ... as it is written in the respective scriptures also at some point they have an experience ... to us it appears that though all the events took place throughout history, however I believe there was convergence at the point of the Isra where Muhammad (SAW) led the jammat of all the prophets - to my understanding in a phase which was abstract of our chronology - so all the prophets were there while they were alive and after the event returned to their own times.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mi'raaj took place, theres no doubt in that. The question I asked is relevant to the topic of Isa(AS). You say that all have tasted death but Isa(AS) has not is not making sense to me. I showed you the hadith where Muhammad pbuh has talked to Moses(AS). Keep in mind however, that in the same journey, Muhammad PBUH have seen Hazrat Yahya, Hazrat noah(as), Moses and along with all of them seen Jesus(AS) too.

I'm not sure if you're taking the event of miraaj as if Muhammad pbuh have gone to barzakh. He(SAW) actually went to heavens. How is it possible that every other prophet you say died and were present there at the time of miraaj, and there was jesus (AS) too. If he(AS) was alive, he shouldnt have been there. Moses(AS) spoke to Muhammad PBUH, why do you not consider him as physically alive?

Muhammad PBUH spoke to Moses >> you say He(AS) tasted death.. and still was able to talk to Muhammad PBUH
Muhammad PBUH saw Jesus (AS) >> he was there amongst all the dead prophets (physically), though, there spirits were there, but Jesus was there physically amongst all the spirits ?

Am I missing something?

Meraaj journey was not physical ( im not getting into that ) , because when kuffars asked muhammad pbuh to provide them a book from heavens , his reply was that im nothing but just a human being like you. Allah revealed the book to Him, He(saw) did not go to heavens to get it. Miraaj does not betray the normal laws that we experience. It was all spiritual.[53:12]** "***The heart *of the Prophet *was not untrue* to that which he saw". Seeing of a heart is different than seeing with eyes itself.May ahadith i can provide in this as well. Heaven is not a physical place, nor is Allah located in one specific direction. Allah says in Quran : [6:104] "Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware."
It is He who reaches to you, you do not reach him , when you are alive. BUt, then again, im not gettin into that debate.

My question is pretty simple to understand. If you believe Muhammad PBUH spoke to Moses(AS) various times at the time or miraaj, how was the conversation took place? was it Moses(as)'s physical body that he spoke to or was it His spirit? Keep in mind, Muhammad PBUH went to heavens and not barzakh. If Muhammad PBUH was present physically there ( as you believe ), then Moses must have been to.

This was the verse, which we talked about long time ago.

[3:145] And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful

You said, instead of "all" it meant "many". So, by this definition, and keepin my question above in mind, What is your belief on Mosa(AS). Dead or alive ?

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Very nice and Subhanallah!!! the way you guyz share yours knowledge.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr Popat

I'm not making the barzakh the same as Mi'raj ... However I'm also not assuming that it is not possible for Isa (AS) to be in Jannah and at the same time not possible for other prophets to be in Jannah ... the whole event of Isra and Mi'raj cannot be used as a basis for arguing who is or who is not alive ... Remember we also believe Muhammad (SAW) was seen by all the prophets and he for sure was very much alive during the Mi'raj ...

Again you misunderstood my explanation you keep thinking in terms of a single timeline ... however I believe the event of Isra an mi'raj took place outside our framework of time ... therefore a prophet from the past during his life can meet with another from his own future as if they lived in the same time, but in fact a new domain is Created for them to be able to interact as if they live in the same time ... it has nothing to do with our understanding of normality.

The red highlighted text above is hence exactly where we differ ... mi'raj does indeed betray the normality we understand and I'm sure you have read the full texts of how it appeared after the journey that nothing had changed. You can say it was all a vision that took place like a dream would, but I say no ... it was an actual event that took place but outside our frame of reference it was not something that was imaginary.

The references above are out of context as well and much of the words that you use regarding Allah (SWT) are also out of context we are not talking about Allah (SWT) if you want to talk about Him then lets start with 'Aqeedah At-Tahawiyya otherwise let's stick to the topic which is whether Isa (AS) is or is not still alive and whether death has or has not come to him.

I've already said that the Mi'raj is not a basis for us to discuss the natural order of things because in order to do so we would need to know precisely the nature of the event and we do not ... we can only arrive at understandings which are or not consistent with science. The idea of people being taken out of their frame of reference and placed in another is now scientifically theoretically possible. You really need to understand me when I say "outside the frame of reference" when you choose to continue this conversation.

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Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Watch this video of Shaykh Mumtaz ul Haq from London - I practically grew up listening to sermons from this man … he knows me and knows my father very well. Listen from 13:30 - 19:00 minutes.

And also 45:00 minutes to the end …