Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace aramis

There are Arabs who disregard Mahdi entirely despite there being many references in the hadith. Some Arabs also misinterpret the Qur'an and many can't tell you what some verses mean ... Scholars are different ... I would sooner trust the opinion of a Pakistani scholar who has studied Ilm-ul-Rijal and Arabic grammar than a layman Arab. Also, having knowledge of Arabic doesn't mean they necessarily believe everything. Some of the most qualified scholars of Arabic are non-Muslims - orientalists.

In fact I believe Raymond Davis knows more sub-continent languages than many of the people who are from that region ... does it make him more patriotic to that land? Ok that might be a poor analogy ... but think along those sort of lines.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace brahmachari99

In addition to what I said above ... Since it makes no real sense to you that Isa (AS) is honoured and not Muhammad (SAW) then why do you interpret the word mutawaffeeka to mean spiritual raising? For sure to be spiritually raised does not mean saved from death but still beaten to a pulp. It has to take the meaning of being protected from dishonour ... i.e. he was honoured ... however as you rightly say all the prophets were more or less dishonoured and Isa (AS) is probably the most maligned. To this day Jews accuse his mother and Christians dishonour him by workshipping him. So how can mutawaffeka mean anything other than physically raised?

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

certainly, believing in prophets send by Allah is important and jews wereunder the wrath of Allah since they killed/or tried to kill prophets, rejectedtheir truth and so and so forth. The jews , in general rejected Jesus(as) withsome exceptions. They level serious allegation against the mother of theprophet and tried to kill him. Your saying that 'whether he died or not is notcrucial' is quite strange. Everyone dies. Same is the case with prophets. Butthe point here is not mere death but the attempt by the Jews to give anaccursed death to the claimant of prophethood. I made a mistake in writing thetranslation of the verse 4:159 so here is goes again
"And there is none among thePeople of the Book but will (continue to) believe in it (the common belief ofJesus killed at the hands of the jews) before his (pertains to each person ofpeople of the book) death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall bea witness against them"
People of the book believe in andcontinue in it till their end comes and after their death, on the judgment dayreality will become evident to them. They are indeed bound to believe in thesupposed crucifixion of jesus (as). If Jews do not do so, truth of Jesus (as)becomes established and their whole position becomes indefensible. if Christians do not believe in it, the towerof Christianity that is founded on the death of Jesus on cross, crashes. Jesus (as) will not come to this world againto tell them about their false beliefs but he would be a witness over them inthe hereafter.

No my friend, it not that simplelogic to prove that Jesus(as) is still alive. There are many verses in the holy Quran that talks about death of Jesusdirectly or indirectly and this is the only verse where the proponents ofliving jesus (as) can get some leverage because of use of third person i.e., (Mautihi)his death and on it/him (Bihi) etc. I will summarize the verses on this issuesoon in my next posts.

Jesus (as) was sentto bani Israel as per Quran so those who disbelieve are disbelievers amongjews.

I am not that well versed in Arabicbut here are a few things for you:
1) Theattempt to make the (Arabic) words (will believe in it before his death) mean"will believe in him (Jesus) before his (Jesus) death" is simplyridiculous. The context spurns the idea, as does the second reading of theexpression (his death) viz. (their death) reported by Ubayy (Jarir vi 13)
2) ‘Noneof the people of the book’ may take singular pronoun since none -> ‘not oneof them’
3) Inanother thread on the same issue, here is what you said. This was also quote bycricketplaya in the ‘hadiths on finality of prophet (pbuh)..’

“…The Qur'an states itselfthat the crucifixion was made to appear that he (Isa (AS)) was killed. Also,when it refers to 'his death' in another verse it couldmean both his - the Jew or Christian or it could mean Isa (AS). The verse isnot categorical about which. “

I hope you remember. There youadmitted that this verse could be interpreted in either way.
Thanks to Mughal1 for the link thatlists so many different translations of this verse at one place. And you cansee that many of translations among ‘the generally accepted’ category say that
‘None of the people of the book butwill believe in him (jesus) before his death ….
What does it mean? It clearly statesthat each one of the people of the book will believe in Jesus. This is theversion of translation I proved wrong on the basis that there are other versesthat say that both Jews and Christians will remain till the Judgment day and sotheir differences. So this version is out of the picture.

Other translations with 'in him' and 'before his(Jesus(as)) death' give rise to questions as:
1) When Islam has come, why is it important to exclusively believe in Jesus (as) with no mention of Islam and prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
2) Why is important to believe in jesus (as) while he is alive. Do you think that as soon as he dies, qiamat will come and they will not have any chance to believe.

In short, this verse is inconclusive from the point of view of life of Jesus (as). Moving on..

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mutawafeka means 'I will cause you to die' while 'rafa a illalah' means raising of status before God. rafa has been used after mutawafeeka so it means raising status in the after life. Jews wanted to condemn him as a false prophet but Allah raised him in status. false prophet don't get such a treatment.

You guys usually translate mutawafeeka as 'gather thee', 'take thee' etc.
'Tawafi and its forms have been used about 25 times in Quran. 23 times, it only meant death or 'Qabz-e-rooh' but for two verses for Isa (as), new meaning were drafted. why?

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai,

Same question goes to you, why you are drating new meaning of 'mutawafeeka'? I explained 'Mutawafeeka' and 'Mout' both used in Holy Qur'an in which terms. Have you read post #35?

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

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^ Aoa Popat, it is good to see you here.
[/QUOTE]

Assalam o Alaikum Chughtai bro. Thanks a lot. Very good to see you around too :)

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Here are some verses for you to check about the meaning of the word "yatawaffa", "yatawaffi", "tuwaffi". Please see the verses : 4:15, 3:193, 32:11, 4:97, 40:76 16:28, 16:32, 2:234, 2:240, 6:61, 7:37, 7:126.

These are the verses in which Allah used that word. Please enlighten me in which one of these verses would you translate that word as " take as whole, give as whole"

You said it very innocently and quoted 39:42, without thinking twice about what it implies. Allah says, He takes the souls at the time of their death and during their sleep. Point to be noted here is.. in both of these conditions ( when Allah takes away souls ), the body itself remains on Earth. It is the soul that departs. I understand, that ure trying to differentiate the two terms but it is also the truth that the body remains on Earth. These are the only 2 ways Allah said in Quran that He takes the soul. There is no other mention of taking someone as a whole because in the other verse in Quran, it says every soul shall taste death.

It is not wise to translate one word as 'taken bodily', whereas the same word is used in many verses i quoted above, and in none of the verse, you take it as 'taken bodily'.

Will you change the meaning of that term in that 'only' verse, just to prove your point ?

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

any arab scholars who believe is ESA'S death? not abt mehdi ok, such discussions are sinful i think ...look how long posts are being posted by a particular group.. they translate quran as THEY wish and disregard hadith. so whats the use!!

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Tawafi

Dictionary (Al-Munjad):
Tawafa hu Allah hu – giving death by Allah
Tuwafiya fulan – That person died.
Mutawafi – dead person.
(Sahah Johri)
Tuwafa hullah hu aye Qabza roh ha hu

Whenever Allah is the subject (Fa-il) and a person is object (Mafuol bihi) then tuwafi always means death or ‘taking soul’

Ibn Abbas (Bukhari)

  1. قال ابن عباس متوفیک ای ممیتک

Hazrat Abdullah bin abbas (ra) has stated that
Mutawafeeq means Mumeetuka i.e., I will give you death
(Sahih Bukhari , kitab-ut-tafsir)

Hadith:
2. ibn abbas state, Holy prophet (pbuh) said “on the day of judgment, some people from my ummah will be taken to hell then I will say. ‘These are my companions’. Answer will be ‘you don’t know what they have been doing after you’. At that moment I (holy prophet(pbuh) will say what a pious person (Isa (as)) said that ‘I was watcher over them when I was among them. When you gave me ‘Tawafi’ (death) then you have been watcher over them.....’ (bukhari kitab-ut-tafsir vol 3)

Holy prophet (pbuh) used ‘falama tawafaitani..’ for himself, for his death. Same term that was attributed to Isa (as) in 5:117

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

**Arab Scholar:
**Imam Malik said Hazrat Jesus had died. (Majma Biharul Anwar, Vol. I, p. 286)

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Popat,

First of all, what is written in Qur'an, Hadith are 100% true and if you or anyone else find an error while explaining it by me that could be possible. I share what I know in hope you peoples correct me if i'm wrong. I'm not here trying to prove anything nor willing to win this debate, just sharing my limited knowledge for the sake of learning as purpose of this thread is to gain more knowlegde. Brother Kchughtai know why we opened this thread.

About your question I need sometime to reply and i hope you or anyone else won't mind it b'coz we are not here to win anything but to seek more knowledge.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Wafaa
• The term wafaa and its derivations can have a myriad of meanings as we will
come to see below. It and its derivations bring the meaning of:
و

  1. To be complete/ perfect/ full [waafi]
  2. To live up [to a promise, an agreement, a vow or the like]/ redeem / fulfil /
    carry out/ keep/ meet/ fulfil/ discharge [an obligation, engagement]/ to pay
    [a debt] [wafaa]
  3. To sleep/ die [tawafee/ wafaat] and to take up fully, hence the term ‘take
    up fully’ [Mutawaffi] was used for Isa [as].
    وافي
    /وفى
    وفاء
    /توفي
    متوف

http://www.idealmuslimah.com/courses/tafseer-word-meanings/2194-wafaa-mutawaffi-at-tawaffee-wafaat-

Please read the full page on this …

I feel some people here are being disingenuous when it comes to the term tawaffee, there are a myriad of meanings of this term.

In English if someone has died we often say “he has passed on by” which people understand to mean “he has died” however literally it means “he came and went away again on his journey”

It is the poetic version of this word that is used in the Qur’an which in this case should not be reinterpreted as a result of it being taken poetically, but it should be taken literally … and there are a number of reasons why …

First of all the verse has come as refutation to him being either harmed or killed … so since the topic is about death then the refutation is about preservation of death …

Second reason is that we all die once … should Isa (AS) come again then he cannot have died and then be born again that is indeed reincarnation a belief outside Islam.

Third reason is that there are other verses and words in the context that refer to the raising … and the raising cannot be meant as a form of elevation of dignity and honour as earlier discussed.

Fourth reason is that it is confirmed by many older scholars and by hadith and is today the majority opinion.

Fifth reason is that earlier scriptures are laced in conflicting stories and some were canonised taking the form of the current Bible, based on the opinion of the then Roman ruler …

Other reasons are that to believe otherwise creates contextual problems and many hadith have to be relegated to allegory to account for the deficiency in the assumption that “tawaffee” in this context means “death” … of Isa (AS).

With regards to the hadith by Ibn Abbas … yes I don’t have a problem in saying that “mutawaffeeka” means “I will give you death”, but the hadith does not say that this was said in response to this verse … and then it also does not indicate if this was the predominant opinion of the day. And even then the words used by Ibn Abbas trusting the face value of the hadith reference and translation is “we will bring death to you” is a future statement so it cannot be demonstrated that “death” was brought to Isa (AS) anywhere in these verses.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Popat:

The Chapter 39 verse 42 states "God** takes the spirits at the time of the death of (the souls), and in their sleep those (of the ones) that have not died. He withholds (the spirits of) those for whom He has decreed death, and the rest He sends back (to their bodies to live on) for a term appointed by Him. Surely in that are signs (important lessons) for people who reflect and are mindful.**

Its Tafsir (explanation) is as follow:

This verse draws our attention to a number of important facts, including the following:

It is not the human spirit but the human soul that dies. The soul (nafs) is, in one respect, the human being itself and, therefore, encompasses the spirit; and in another respect, it is the center or mechanism of worldly life. As for the spirit, it is the source of both bodily and spiritual life. It has an existence independent of the body, and it continues to live after death.

The human soul has various dimensions. These dimensions are mentioned by the scholars as the human spirit, the animal spirit, and the vegetable spirit. The human spirit also has dimensions which are described as the spirit that believes in and worships God (the spirits of the believers) and the spirit common to all people, which thinks, learns, loves, etc.

Death and sleep are identical in that during both, God takes the spirit. However, at death, God does not return the spirit to the body, thus causing the soul to die; while during sleep, He takes the spirit, but returns it if He has not ordained death for the soul. So, at death, the spirit leaves the body completely; but during sleep, it does not leave it completely and, therefore, continues its relation with the body. If the body still has some degree of animal life during sleep, it is because there is still a relation, however weak it is, between the body and the spirit during sleep.

Death is when the spirit leaves the body completely and begins another kind of life, which is called the intermediate life (of the grave) between this world and the Hereafter. The conditions of this life are determined by the person’s belief and deeds in the world. The spirit still has a relation with its body through the part of it that does not rot under the soil.

The Chapter 3 verse 55 (as i quoted above) states: "(It was part of His countering their scheme) when God said: “Jesus, (as your mission has ended,) I will take you back (to Myself) and raise you up to Myself, and will purify you of (the groundless slanders of) those who disbelieve, and set your followers above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then, to Me you will all return, and I will judge between you concerning all that on which you were used to differ.”

Like his coming into the world, Jesus a.s. departure from the world was unusual. He did not die as other people do, but God took back his spirit and body, which took on the form of, or changed into, an “astral” body. This can be analogous with the Ascension of the Prophet Muhammad :saw2: . However, while, Jesus a.s., having completed his mission, remained where he ascended, the Prophet Muhammad :saw2: , returned to the world to complete his mission.

The Divine will that Jesus a.s. followers will be above the unbelievers until the Day of Judgment has two meanings:

  • The people of pure monotheism, including primarily the community of Muhammad :saw2: , will generally be above the unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. (Such rules are general, having certain exceptions, but an exception does not nullify the rule.)

  • Those who believe and follow Jesus a.s., even with some errors and deviations, will generally be above the Jews who reject him.

As for the verses you quoted above, one arabic word have many meanings and when one word is used in sentence or paragraph then its meaning changed as per the sentence or paragraph. Hence, we cannot translate the same one word with one meaning when its used in many sentence or paragraph.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

*Some verses from the holy Quran in support of death of Jesus (as)
*

I would like to quote some more verses from the holy Quran that supports death of Jesus (as). Please take a look:
**
3:144) “And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.”
**
This verse clearly states that all the messengers before the holy prophet (pbuh) have passed away. No exceptions mentioned. Even modes of passing away are mentioned i.e., natural death or getting killed. Although these modes of passing away are mentioned for the holy prophet (pbuh) but bracketing the holy prophet (pbuh) with rest of the prophets and mentioning that prophets before him have passed away without mentioning any exception. Then same modes of passing away apply to all the prophets. Isa (as) is no exception.

**5: 75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
**Isa (as) and his mother (as) both used to eat food. Their eating food has been mentioned together and as a matter of the past (Maazi istamrari is used means they don’t do that any more). Mariam (as) doesn’t eat any more since she has died so similar is the case with her son Isa (as). Also consider the following verse:

**21:8) And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live forever.
**Food is essential for our bodies to survive. Since Mary (as) and Isa(as) both used to eat in past. So they are dead not living

** 16:20,21) And those on whom they call beside Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised.
**All those who were considered Gods at the time of the holy prophet (pbuh) are dead, not living. Isa (as) is also one of them

*10:28) And remember the day when We shall gather them all together, then shall We say to those who ascribed partners to God, “Stand back in your places, you and your ‘partners’”. Then We shall separate them widely, one from another, and their ‘partners’ will say: ‘It was not us that you worshipped.
10:29) ‘So Allah is now sufficient as a Witness between us and you. We were certainly unaware of your worship.’
*

It is clear from the above verses that on the judgment day, that all the ‘Gods’ other than Allah will stand witness against their worshipers and will show their obliviousness of this fact. Certainly hazrat Isa (as) will one of them. So how could he deny this knowledge if he himself had visited this world for the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] time.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

:jazak: Brother Kchughtai,

:insh: will look into details.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

aoa, psyah,

[QUOTE]

I feel some people here are being disingenuous when it comes to the term tawaffee, there are a myriad of meanings of this term.

[/QUOTE]
I assure you that we are not being disingenuous.
I may comment on your points of tawafee later. In short, my concentration was on a specific part of it that is tawafee used for a person not a thing and subject (Fa-il) being Allah.

[quote]

In English if someone has died we often say "he has passed on by" which people understand to mean "he has died" however literally it means "he came and went away again on his journey"

[/quote]
first of all, we are not talking here about english. secondly, the term used for death is 'pass away' and not 'pass on by'. That is new to me wrt death. so please try not to cloud things. we already have lot of clutter here.

[quote]

First of all the verse has come as refutation to him being either harmed or killed ... so since the topic is about death then the refutation is about preservation of death ...

[/quote]

Imam al-Zamakhshari (Persian 11[SUP]th[/SUP] century scholar) said in his tafseer regarding “INI MUTAWAFEEKA..’. He wrote ‘INI MUMEETAKA HATAF ANFAK..’ i.e., I will give you natural death. ‘‘MA QATALUHU’ and ‘MA SALABAHU’ explains ‘MUTAWAFEEKA’. All three terms points to three forms of death. He was not killed neither crucified (death due to crucifixion) so Allah will give him a natural death. Being tortured only doesn’t fit well here.
Pls consider following verse to understand the meaning of 'SALABUHU' :

5:33) The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land is only this that they be slain or crucified ....

So among the forms of punishment are slaying and crucifixion. Certainly, here 'YUSALABU' refers to death due to crucifixion and not just putting the convict on the cross.

[quote]

Second reason is that we all die once ... should Isa (AS) come again then he cannot have died and then be born again that is indeed reincarnation a belief outside Islam.

[/quote]

This is not what we believe in. We don’t believe in any form of re-incarnation. When a person is called Hatim tai, it doesn’t mean that actual Hatim Tai is re-incarnated. It only means that he is good in philanthropy similarly as Hatim was. Similarly, if a person is called Rustam or Hercules, it means he is strong because physical strength was Hercules’ and Rustam’s main attribute. So coming of Isa (as) means a person from within Ummah of the holy prophet(pbuh), who will be raised in later days. As the holy prophet (pbuh) was compared to Moses (as) in Quran and in Old Testament prophecies, similarly a messiah similar (not same) to Jesus (as) will come in later days. I will talk about this aspect sometime.

[quote]

Third reason is that there are other verses and words in the context that refer to the raising ... and the raising cannot be meant as a form of elevation of dignity and honour as earlier discussed.

[/quote]

Pls show me the verses you are referring to. Although I have commented on this point earlier but here are some verses where ‘Rafa’ is used for elevation/exaltation of honor.

2:253) These Messengers have We exalted, some of them above others: among them there are those to whom Allah spoke; and some of them He exalted by degrees of rank

6:83) And that is Our argument which We gave to Abraham against his people. We exalt in degrees of rank whomso We please. Thy Lord is indeed Wise, All-Knowing.

6:165) And He it is Who has made you successors of others on the earth and has exalted some of you over the others in degrees of rank, that He may try you by that which He has given you.

7:177) And if We had pleased, We could have exalted him thereby; but he inclined to the earth and followed his evil inclination. ..

(above verse about Balam baura. If taken as per your translation, it would be: We wanted to take him up to the heavens but he inclined towards the earth. )

19:57) And We exalted him to a lofty station. ( Do you believe hazrat Idris (as) was also taken bodily to heavens?)

35:11) Whoso desires honour, then let him know that all honour belongs to Allah. Unto Him ascend good words, and righteous work does He exalt.

So ‘rafa’ of a person by Allah means raising in honor before Allah.

[quote]

Other reasons are that to believe otherwise creates contextual problems andmany hadith have to be relegated to allegory to account for the deficiency inthe assumption that "tawaffee" in this context means"death" ... of Isa (AS).

[/quote]

Actually, that is the main problem. If hadiths mention a certain fact then even those can be used to interpret clear verses from the holy Quran. This is not our way. For us, Quran is THE main source. If something is stated here unambiguously then hadiths and other sources should be interpreted in the light of the understanding we got from Quran not otherwise.
Allegoric words occur in prophecies. There are many examples but the relevant example would be the case of first coming of Isa (as) . Jews are still waiting for his first coming. They are waiting for the one who will re-establish kingdom of David(AS). They thought that as per their scripture, Elijah (a previous prophet) will descend from heavens to harbinger the coming of messiah as it was believed Elijah was taken to heavens in a chariot.
.... Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"-Malachi 4:5

Prophet Elijah was to come who was considered to be taken up to heavens. Here is how Jesus (as) explained:

"In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn't recognized, and was badly mistreated by many... Then the disciples realized he was speaking of John the Baptist."-Matthew 17:10-13(LIVING BIBLE-CATHOLIC EDITION) (this account can also be found in: Mark9:11-13)

Clearly, Jesus (as) taught that this was a true prophecy. Jesus (as) agreed that Elijah indeed "must return before the Messiah comes." But then, to the surprise to everyone there, Jesus claimed that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of this prophecy. So Elijah name was attributed to Yahya (as) [John the baptist]. If actually an older prophet was to come then prophethood claim by Jesus (as) can be questioned. That is what Jews did.

[quote]

With regards to the hadith by Ibn Abbas ... yes I don't have a problem in saying that "mutawaffeeka" means "I will give you death",but the hadith does not say that this was said in response to this verse ...and then it also does not indicate if this was the predominant opinion of the day. And even then the words used by Ibn Abbas trusting the face value of the hadith reference and translation is "we will bring death to you" is a future statement so it cannot be demonstrated that "death" was brought to Isa (AS) anywhere in these verses.

[/quote]

BTW, if you accept the term ‘MUTAWAFEEQA’ as future death then there are problems for you since the next word is ‘RAFIOOQA’.So ‘Rafa’ comes after death and it demolishes the concept of ascension of living Jesus (as).

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai,

In the verses 121-178 of Chapter 3, the battle of Badr showed how Allah SWT helps and upholds the virtuous, and how patience, perseverance, and discipline find their reward, but in the execrcise of the higher virtues and in contempt of pain and death. Moreover, You used word ‘All Messengers’, I unable to see which word in this verse says ‘All Messenger’. Could you please write that word.

The verse 5:75 was related to some previous verses where this verse answered that she (Hazrat maryam a.s.) never claimed that she was mother of God, or that her son was God. She was a pious, virtuous woman. Both eat foods as any other human being, while Allah does not eat.

**

**

Aray bhai yeh kidhar ka connection kahan mila rahy ho :smack:

I unable to understand how these verses related to Hazrat Isa a.s., Could you please explain in detail. Thanks.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption.And they did not kill him, for certain.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

I wanted to say more but held back as it appeared that the thread is dead. Anyways, I will be back soon
[QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

As far as your following quote is concerned,

[QUOTE]

In the verses 121-178 of Chapter 3, the battle of Badr showed how Allah SWT helps and upholds the virtuous, and how patience, perseverance, and discipline find their reward, but in the execrcise of the higher virtues and in contempt of pain and death. Moreover, You used word 'All Messengers', I unable to see which word in this verse says 'All Messenger'. Could you please write that word.

[/QUOTE]

I couldn't get what is the relevance of underlined part here.
As far as the verse 3:144 is concerned, there is a general declaration that messengers before the holy prophet (pbuh) have passed away. pls note that no exception has been mentioned. If Isa(as) is the only exception then it must have been stated here. and btw, what does translate to many prophets or some prophets. Same wording for Isa (as) has been employed in verse 5:75. if all prophets before Isa (as) has passed away then same is the case with prophet muhammad (pbuh).

[QUOTE]

Aray bhai yeh kidhar ka connection kahan mila rahy ho

[/QUOTE]

Janab, aap thanday dimagh say sochein to sahi. yeh 'connection' sahi hai. What you said about mary (as) is right. Yes that is the point but as I stated earlier, eating is a trait of living creatures. It has been mentioned in past tense. why? Quran is not an ordinary book, it is a book of Allah and each and every word stated here has deep meanings whether we are able to understand that or not. Allah has stated clearly that

021.007
YUSUFALI: Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.

021.008
YUSUFALI: Nor did We give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they exempt from death.

so all the messengers were men, had mortal bodies that needed food to survive. Since (as I mentioned before) Jesus (as) and Mary (as) 'used to' eat food. The way it has been mentioned clearly tells us that they used to eat. they don't do that any more and they can't survive without eating food. So the straightforward conclusion is that both of them are dead.

Re: Return of Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai,

I read your comments and was working on it. I'm not in hurry to post reply without understanding. Moreover Like I said the purpose of this thread is to seek more knowledge not to win a debate so take your time :)