Respect of Women

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Pranam Vinod Bhai.

Superb Reply Bhai. You Have Always Been A Great Aunt Catcher :p,A Hard Core Sales Guy,A Military Man And A Body Builder And You Are Full Of History. :k:

BTW:-You Mentioned Something About Bali Island,Indonesia.As Far As My Knowledge It’s A Muslim Republic.Then What This Hindu Culture There? Pls Explain.

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Irrelevant point. Yes, Manusmriti laid out the basis of the caste system, but it was based more on the work done by people and not the way it is followed today. As for the reason why caste system has not been abolished, it has more to do with the so-called lower castes getting huge benefits from reservations and not willing to let go of it.

For all the rhetoric, you have not been able to explain how Manusmriti is similar to the concept of Sharia in Islam, which was the original point of this debate.

I am not qualified to speak on other religions, so lets just stick to Hinduism here. Advaita Vedanta is the fundamental belief of Hinduism. Can you deny the concepts laid out there ?

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Can you tell me what aspect of Manusmriti (other than caste system) is even remotely followed by Hindus today ?

And also elaborate what the "experience sages and professors of Indian civilization and culture have professed" about Manusmriti ?

Going back to the original debate, I would like you to show how Manusmriti is followed by Hindus similar to Sharia being followed by Muslims ?

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^ Peace The Player

If there was ever a time if people were given sentence based on scriptural reference then that is enough to qualify ...

I did not want a debate to begin between two Hindus. One says deities are myths the other does not, one says there is a law system the says there is not.

I still haven't worked out what is bad or good in the Hindu faith and if coming out of the ongoing cycle of lives means that the person has had a series of good karma then ultimately there is a paradise like state.

Whether women are respected or not or to the degree of Muslim women or not is also not clear - one can read scripture on one hand but if the people no longer follow it then what does that mean? If scripture is not a set of rules or standards to follow then why quote them in the first place?

Respecting women as deities or depicting deities as women ... I'm not sure if this is respect of the women it would be disrespect of God ... Furthermore if there are no rules to follow then there is no consequence of not treating a woman kindly or with respect ... if it results in bad karma to disrespect a woman then it could just as easily result in good karma. Because we have to rely on what is "obvious" to determine what is good and bad ... unless of course scripture does have a bearing on what is good and bad.

I'm confused !!!

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So how many wives krishna had ?

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W.S B.M Bhai.

Bali Island is a part of Indonesia where Hindusim is the predominant religion and they follow the ancient vedic style caste system even today.

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You are calling the biggest dimension as irrelevant. Caste system has been followed in India and in other parts for centuries and this is yielded from Manusmriti .It is not followed in these modern times as it had been in the earier perids simply because India is a country that got ravaged by external incursions which became a great detrimental factor in fading such great eras like that of vedic times.Moreover India is a nation that has become a roost for diverse religions and cultures post vedic era and it has become impossible/difficult to employ the code and conduct of Manusmriti and other scripts. Simple.

Ofcourse Mansumriti is like Shariat because Manusmriti clearly underlines the social objectives and the various punishments need to be delivered for social rules and laws violations.

If you can not comment about other religions,how will you engage in a debate here?Why did you force our other members in to discussion here? I am asking you one simple question.If you are a follower of Advaita ,you should be able to answer my question that's if all god/goddess forms in this world are mythical.If you can single out goddess Durga and say that she is a a mythical form ,then according to you all other god /goddess forms should be mythical,given that you are a follower of Advaita .Why are you not able to comment on it?

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What? Arli bhai ur a body builder too :k:

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The manu smriti doesnt degrade women..... Something that has preset our order and Hindus can be proud of that.

The Manu Smriti awards women property rights.... It is followed by Hindus.... :)

It denouces dowry and says "that a father who gives dowry is selling his daughter"

provision for widow marriage....... It is followed and practised.

Virtual absence of multiple marriages by a man
i.e. a married man could only marryn again if his wife for 7 yrs did not have any heir, that also only with the permission of his present wife

And several passages which praise women....like "the house in which a single women;s tear is shed is doomed"

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Hi.. How are you Waleed Bhai? :slight_smile: :hug:

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Taken from the link:-

This one clearly shows how Manusmriti is Hindi Shariat…One can easily see the code and aonduct and also the punsihments…

http://hindurevolution.blogspot.com/2011/05/manu-smriti-and-women.html

Lets review some more shlokas from Manu Smriti and attempt to imbibe them in our society:
Importance of happy women
3.55. A father, brother, husband or brother-in-law should keep their daughter, sister, wife or sister-in-law happy and pleased through gentle words, respectful behavior, gifts etc. Those who desire prosperity should ensure that women in their family are always happy and do not face miseries.
3.57. A family where women remain unhappy due to misdeeds of their men is bound to be destroyed. And a family where women are always happy is bound to prosper forever.
3.58. A family- where women feel insulted or discriminated against and curse their menfolk- is destroyed in same manner as poison kills all those who eat it.
3.59. One desiring glory should ensure that he keeps women in the family by giving them respect and pleasing them with good ornaments, dresses, food. Women should always be revered under all circumstances.
3.62. A person who does not keep her wife happy causes misery for entire family. And if wife is happy, entire family appears as happiness incarnate.
*9.26. Women give birth to next generation. They enlighten the home. They bring fortune and bliss. Hence women are synonymous to Prosperity. *
This shloka forms the basis of women being called Ghar ki Laxmi or ‘Goddess of Fortune in Home‘ in India even till today.
9.28. Woman is the source of all kinds of happiness in all generations – be it from children, or from noble benevolent deeds or through conjugal bliss or through service of elders.
In other words, woman is the primary source of bliss in many forms – sometimes as mother, sometimes as daughter, sometimes as wife and sometimes as a partner in spiritual deeds. **It also means that participation of women is necessary for conduct of any religious or spiritual activity. **
9.96. Man and Woman are incomplete without each other. Hence the most ordinary religious duty would demand participation of both.
Thus, those who deny Vedas or Vedic rituals to women are anti-Hindu and anti-Humanity.

*4.180. A wise man should not indulge in fights and arguments with his family members including mother, daughter and wife. *
9.4. A father who does not marry his daughter to a deserving groom deserves condemnation. A husband who does not fulfill just demands of her wife deserves condemnation. A son who does not take care of her widow mother deserves condemnation.

Polygamy is a sin
9.101. Husband and Wife should remain together till death. They should not approach any other partner, nor commit adultery. This, in summary, is the Dharma or religion of all human beings.
Thus those societies which justify polygamy or sex-slavery or temporary marriage are bound to suffer miseries because they neglect the core tenet of Dharma.

Autonomy of Women
9.11. Women should be provided autonomy and leadership in managing the finances, maintaining hygiene, spiritual and religious activities, nutrition and overall management of home.
The shloka clearly puts aside false claims that women do not have right to conduct religious rituals of Vedas. On contrary, women should lead such rituals. Thus all those people who suggest that women do not have right to study or practice Vedas are against Manu and Vedas. Such bigoted people are the cause for misery of the nation. We should simply not tolerate such mindsets that demean women.
9.12. A woman who is kept constrained in a home by noble men (husband, father, son) is still insecure. Thus it is futile to restrict women. Security of women would come only through her own capabilities and mindset.
This shloka explains the futility to attempting to restrict a woman to home in name of providing her security. On contrary, to secure her, she should be given the right training so that she can defend herself and avoid getting misled by bad company. The prevailing notion of cornering women within a small home is against Manu’s ideology.

Protection of Women
9.6. Even a weak husband should attempt to protect his wife.
9.5 Women should keep themselves away from vices. Because when women lose character, the entire society is destroyed.
5.149. A woman should always ensure that she is protected. It is duty of father, husband and son to protect her.
Please note that this protection does not imply restriction as clear from verse 9.12 cited in previous section. But a society that does not protect its womenfolk from attacks of perverts writes its own destiny of doom.
It is because of this inspiration that many a brave warriors laid their lives to protect the dignity of their women when butchers from West and Central Asia invaded our nation. The sacrifices of Alha-Udal and valor of Maharana Pratap brings a gush of glory in our blood.
Its a shame that despite such a chivalrous foundation of our culture, we have women either oppressed in backyard of homes or commoditized as sensual-items instigating lust. When we ourselves have turned invaders instead of protectors of dignity of women, who can help us!

Marriage of Women
9.89. It is better to keep the daughter unmarried than force her to marry an undeserving person.
*9.90-91. A woman can choose her own husband after attaining maturity. If her parents are unable to choose a deserving groom, she can herself choose her husband. *
Thus the concept of parents deciding the groom for their daughter is against Manu. A mature daughter has full rights to choose her husband. Parents act as facilitators for the marriage and not final decision makers, as wrongly practiced in many societies.

Property Rights of Women
9.130. A daughter is equivalent to a son. In her presence, how can any one snatch away her right over the property.
*9.131. **A daughter alone has the right over personal property of her mother. ***
Thus, as per Manu, while daughter has equal share as her brothers over property of her father, she has exclusive rights over property of her mother. The reason for this special treatment of women is to ensure that women are never at mercy of anyone. After all happy dignified women form the foundation of a happy society!
9.212-213. If a person has no kins or wife, then his wealth be distributed equally among his brothers and sisters. If the elder brother refuses to give due share to other brothers and sisters, he is punishable by law.
To further ensure safety of women, Manu recommended harsh punishments for those who rob away wealth of a woman, even if they are her relatives.
*8.28-29. If a woman is alone because she has no children, or no men to provide for her security in her family, or is widow, or whose husband has gone abroad, or who is unwell, then it is duty of the government to ensure her safety and security. If her wealth is robbed by her relatives or friends, then the government should provide strict punishment to the culprits and have her wealth returned back. *

Prohibition of Dowry
3.52. Those relatives who rob away or thrive on wealth, property, vehicles or dresses of a woman or her family are wiliest of people.
**Thus any kind of dowry is a strict NO NO as per Manu Smriti. No one should dare attempt to take away the property of a woman. **
The next shloka takes this concept further and states that even slightest exchange of tangible items amounts to sale/purchase and hence against principles of noble marriage. In fact Manu Smriti suggests that a marriage along with dowry is marriage of ‘Devils’ or Asuri Vivah.

Strict Punishment for harming Women
8.323. Those who abduct women should be given death sentence.
9.232. Those who kill women, children or scholarly virtuous people should be given strictest punishment.
8.352. Those who rape or molest women or incite them into adultery should be given harshest punishment that creates fear among others to even think of such a crime.
Interestingly, a judge of sessions court suggested today that castration seems the best punishment to prevent alarming increase in rape cases. Refer http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Castrate-child-rapists-Delhi-judge-suggests/articleshow/8130553.cms
8. 275. One should be punished if he puts false allegations or demeans mother, wife or daughter.
8.389. Those who abandon their mother, father, wife or children without any reasonable reason should face severe punishments.

Ladies First
The concept of Ladies First seems to originate from Manu Smriti.
*2.138. **A man in a vehicle should give way to the following – aged person, diseased person, one carrying burden, groom, king, student and a woman. ***
3.114. One should feed the following even before feeding the guests – newly married women, girls, and pregnant women.

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Ans me :)

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I have mentioned in my earlier post that caste system is the only aspect of Manusmriti thats been followed albeit incorrectly. Did you even read my post ?

Can you give me some examples ? Pls specify which laws of Manusmriti are being followed today, and punishment given according to them.

I am commenting on Hinduism which I know about - not other polytheistic religions that you mentioned. I have already mentioned that as per Advaita Vedanta, Goddess Durga (and all other deities) are part of the one Brahman. What about that is so difficult for you to understand ?

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OK...although that was not what the debate was about.

There are various interpretations in Hinduism, and Arlietter's interpretation seems to be very different from mine. He is right - there is a certain section of society that uses Manusmriti as a basis for casteism and caste based discrimination. However, thats probably the only aspect of Manusmriti thats even remotely in practice.

Unfortunately the debate has gone off on a tangent. If you are really interested, I would recommend reading up on Hinduism. There is enough material available online.

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16,108 - as per Hindu mythology

I am sure Arlietter can give you historical proof for it :chai:

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All the examples you have given are of the Indian civil law like Widow Remarriage Act of 1856, anti-dowry act of 1961, Hindu Marriage Act (1951 amendment banning polygamy) etc.

Can you show me specifically where Hindus follow Manusmriti (where either Civil Law is not there or in place of Civil Law) ?

[QUOTE]
Going back to the original debate, I would like you to show how Manusmriti is followed by Hindus *similar to Sharia being followed by Muslims *?
[/QUOTE]

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From the look of it The Player is coming with a common sense approach (which could be dangerous is the sense lacked wisdom) and Arlietter is coming with a textual approach which is similar to the approach Muslims use in our discussions.

I think one thing has not really been done and that is the classification of Hindu scripture by topic - which is what is done in our scriptures. It was done that way in order to extrude rulings from them - so that ALL narrations about a given topic were in one place. I don't that has been done with Hindu scripture.

What I mean is that it may be just as easy to show that multiple marriages are allowed just as much monogamous marriages depends on the scripture you take or part of it - if classification was there then it would be possible to arrive at the correct answers - of course you would also have to apply consensus of scholarly opinion.

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psyah - the text (Manusmriti) that Arlietter is quoting is often quoted by critics of Hinduism but seldom followed by Hindus. The origins of the text are debated, and unlike scriptures like The Geeta, Ramayana and even Vedas its never used. I have asked Arlietter to substantiate the usage/applicability of the text - lets see what he comes up with.

There are multiple Hindu scriptures and they deal with topics based on the context. For example The Geeta, which is the most revered of Hindu texts, deals with issues like duty, righteousness etc. in the form of a conversation between Krishna & Arjuna. The Ramayana on the other hand talks about human relationships through the form of a story. However, none of these books ever take on the shape of laws. At the risk of repeating myself, Hindu scriptures talk about ideal behavior in different contexts and then lets the reader/follower decide how to implement it in his/her daily life. This is in sharp contrast to Islam which goes into specifics of issues.

I am coming at this debate from a practical approach i.e. what Hindus do. What might have been done thousands of years ago is not relevant to this discussion. Hinduism (unlike Islam) has evolved over time to stay relevant in the current context. Whats allowed that to happen is the flexibility in the religion. If there were hard and fast rules laid down, do you think that would ever have happened ?

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Arleitter,

Do you have any evidence as to the divine authority of manusmriti?
Who authored the text ? Who was it revealed to ? It definately was not Manu cos historical opinion generally dates composition of the text we have today any time between 200 BCE and 200 CE. So it definately was not Manu since he was the first man created by Brahma. Muslims belive that Sharia is based on Koran (pls correct me if I am wrong). So Manusmriti is not a religious book IMO. Do U have any evidence of it being used as a rule of law by Hindu kings or promoted by Hindu pontiffs. If U do can U pls provide the link/reference ? I think it is better to liken it an ancient constitution of a particular empire like the Indian constitution is today.

Even if U belive in smritis, I remember reading that the smriti for Kaliyug was parashara smiti and not Manusmriti.

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Psyah or any one,

Do you have any historical/scholarly reference or link (not form the Koran) about the condition of women in Pagan society of pre-islamic Arabia? Any reference from the religious texts of Pagans that did not value women ? Most muslims I speak to talk about how Islam stopped female infanticide. While this is admirable, it was a widespread problem in many parts of the world at that time including China.

OTOH the first wife of your prophet was a business-women was she not? She freely chose to marry him even though he was younger. This points to a society where women were emancipated for that time period and sort of contradicts the statement that the women before Islam had no rights. Can you please point me in the right direction ? Thanks.