Respect of Women

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Its not abt you having a praablem or not
. Prove me the point that ur religion gives respect to women.I gave my propesctive and give me valid argument against that. Just blindly saing that you love ur religion wont help me in
understanding how it respects women.
and two chamchas agreed on your point..funny!!

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Peace chintu_bhopali

The proof that Islam gives respect to women is evident but in order to show that we have to agree the terms to the proof. Let's say that we compare 5 different topics of your choosing about women in 5 of the worlds major religions and ask the women which they would choose and then we have "proof" that Islam gives respect to women. That should be a good test don't you think? If so let's start another thread on this.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Peace Psyah,

Please talk practical.From where you are going to compare religions? I am not here to say my religion is best or islam is best. The question raised was islam treats women with respect and I
asked a question talking about having multiple wife,witnesses for rape,nikab system,death by stoning, and the world knows how taliban treated their women based on their islamic beliefs...so
based on all above how can one believe that islam treats women with respect?

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Peace chintu_bhopali and Unos

Moderators please may you split the posts that pertain to Islam respects women in to a separate thread ... JazakAllahu khair.

To answer your first question chintu_bhopali the reason for comparison is to put context in to the whole topic. Let's see what other religions or even secular political laws have instead of the alternative in Islam and see which has greater wisdom in it. That is all I'm asking for. It is interesting that you make a stab against Islam and want your own faith to remain aloof of similar criticism - if you are true you'll have no problem with my proposal.

The question of multiple wives - that is easy - Islam provides each woman that a man may have intimate relations with the right of "wife" - which means she inherits and her children get a place in the inheritence. There is no intimate relations for men to have with women outside marriage and hence the women cannot be abused for sexual reasons. So multiple marriages is a plus point for women. On the other hand any order that does not make it illegal to have extra marrital sex is making the world easier for men. Women are equal to mean in their rights in Islam and Islam paved the way for this mindset before any other order. Today in these Western societies we see the legacy of Islamic injunction for women's rights.

Islam is not a hypocritical religion. It can't be if it is ordained by God. That is the reason why although it "respects" women it does not respect evil people. Evil people can be both men and women and there are ways to determine evil people. There are dire consequences for evil people in Islam and it does what it can to make sure that the evil most people are sentenced to capital punishment. To determine the most evil people it does not take single claims on face value because the chance of the single claim being one based on personal vendettas could be high. That is the reason why four witnesses are required. It would be unjust to have a person who consented to sex only to be blamed for rape and which if determined was true then both the man and the woman would be sentenced. If however there is an accusation of rape on a person and that persons life could be ended as a result then due diligence needs to be given to determine the reality of the crime. The society in Islam does not allow free private interactions between man and woman and by so doing then the woman puts herself in to harms way such that if the man decides to do anything then her claim for rape will not have enough witnesses. So by having the requirement of witnesses prevents the potentially evil woman from scheming against a man and claiming rape thus ruining his life and potentially his dependets too. On the other hand society will not allow men to enter the houses of lone women.

Niqab in a similar way although is a version of clothing to fulfil the intent of hijab and there are differences of opinion on that, it serves to protect women not the reverse. If a woman is not known physically then it prevents the potential rapist from taking advantage - so niqab does serve as an effective way to protect women. If a woman wants to be subjected to criticism and lustful desires then it would be wrong to say Islam does not respect those women. Rather it would be those specific individuals who go out of their way demanding "attention" rather than "respect". Islam "respects" women by distinguishing between pious women and impious women.

Death by stoning can only be issued on the adulterer be it man or woman - in short - without the whole spectrum of nuiances and conditions - this is not a "disrespect" for the woman. First of all the sentence is on both man and woman so there is nothing distinguishing the treatment of the man from the woman here - so this has not even been thought through properly by you, but also the women who is stoned to death for being an adulteress is done to serve the interests and "respect" the married woman the one who has been cheated on.

The last point about how Taliban treat women - this is just criticism against Taliban if it is all true anyway. We have a tendency of viewing other cultures through our personal perspectives. We are talking about Islam so we need to deal with what is constituted as Islam - not how people who happen to be Muslim behave. I could raise the point that women in Islam are allowed to remarry, women in Hinduism for example are not and hence either live a life as a divorcee or have to jump in to flames of the body of their late husbands. Practices which are done less these days because the women who follow those religions do not find it "respectful" enough to follow.

Peace Unos

The marriage to Aisha (RA) in terms of how old she was is a contested issue many times on this forum. Besides if it was not for the "age" then there is nothing in the hadith that indicates or points to the idea that RasoolAllah (SAW) "disrespected" women. Try it replace the ages in the hadith for 21 and 24 and see for yourself that the hadith itself is not sufficient to prove or even demonstrate your point.

The statement of Zaynab (RA) is a slanderous statement and will not be entertained unless you bring evidence ... it seems you have been paying visits to the decievers websites. Even then ... even if we assume this accusation to be true - the hadith does not show "disrespect" to women by RasoolAllah (SAW) ... rather it shows that she was given more status and not less. If anyone was seen in lower light it would be Zayd (RA). So this reasoning is not cogent with the topic at hand. This issue has already been dealt with on this forum too and clarified before - to repeat the same thing over and over again by the deceivers shows that they have no desire to seek righteousness in their conduct and when issues are explained they bring them back again as if they were never explained.

Marriage of a Jewish woman is not "disrespect" it is "respect" - it made her the mother of the believers and to make such absurd claims is logically fallacious and deceptive.

The idea that Islam allows wife beating is stupid. The verses were revealed to limit wife beating that was prevelant then and present in every society it is habit of man to resort to beating and the Qur'an prescribes a very restrictive process that must be followed for the man in order to delay the point that a man is driven to beat his wife. The fact that there is no verse allowing or limiting a woman from beating her husband means that if a woman does so there is no clear consequence for her action. If a man beats his wife out of turn then that is a crime. Again a deceptive statement. The hadith is a beautiful one ... it cannot be understood by the decievers on first pass, they think that RasoolAllah (SAW) struck Aisha (RA) out of anger for her following him ... That is absurd. The reason why it is absurd is because of the statement that he RasoolAllah (SAW) made afterwards. First of all "pain" can be meant in the emotional sense and second the word for "strike" in Arabic is "daraba" a different word was used in this hadith which means "push" ... the reason for it to be on the chest is because of the heart and in the authentic interpretations of this hadith the act of the hand on the chest was to drive out the evil inspiration that affected Aisha (RA) and hence was his miracle that led him to make that statement. The pain (emotional or physical) was a side-effect of the act.

The marriage of RasoolAllah (SAW) to a number of wives has already been answered before. He is the Mercy to the Worlds and should he take hundred wives and half the worlds riches for himself it would be well below what he has given to us in return. But alas he took far less and furthermore his wives became the mother of the believers - it would rather problematic for a woman to marry her son! Even then after a prophet of God has touched her then any man touch her afterwards would be a "disrespect" for her because the other man would never compare.

Sex with captured women is a misnoma and a deception by the deceivers that has already been dealt with on this forum.

Women are given the option to be "supported" by another woman to help them in intense emotional circumstances. This recognises their physiological makeup and is not intended to "disrespect" them but rather give them an equal platform to operate. On the flip side in our societies we try to equate men and women and end up putting too much pressure on them out of our ignorance of equating the two.

Thus far I have merely touched on defending the accusations ... there are multitudes of hadith and verses that show the reverse of this - i.e. how Islam promotes women and respects them and when compared to other religions it out shines them all even the modern times are so far gone the other way women are subjected to more trauma for being expected to be operative in society and attractive at the same time.

The deceivers and enemies of truth throw the same old arguments time and again and when they are explained they remain silent for a while and then repeat them later on as if those issues are new and have never been explained. The problem with deceivers is that they will be put in their place but rely on people forgetting to resurrect the same old arguments that have passed their sell by dates. There are many forums on the internet that can answer the questions, why is it that the decievers do not research the issues carefully to show that they are not biased and want to find the truth?

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

This reminds me of the strict rule against falsely accusing a female of things like zina, if someone falsely accuses a female on purpose he gets a certain number of lashes, was it 80? I'm not sure exactly how much. It's meant to protect females from false accusations.

I remember a book by Amina Wadud in which she wrote that the fact that more witnesses needed are not to imply that females are considered less, but it was so they could draw more support from each other. Well something like that anyway, I can't exactly remember now, does anyone know what she exactly wrote?

The 4 witnesses needed to proove a rape aren't only meant to protect males from evil females, it's also meant to protect females from evil males, so the evil male can't lie that his wife is unfaithful only so he could divorce her when he wants a new wife or simply to enjoy mistreating her. If the evil male falsesly accuses his wife of being unfaithful, he needs 4 witnesses too. Same goes for the evil males who falsesly accuse their sisters or cousins or other females.

These are all important issues which can scar people for life, destroy their lives for nothing when they haven't done the things they are being falsely accused of. That's why in true Islam you need a lot of evidence to prove them lest innocent lives won't be destroyed. The strict rules were never meant to trouble females but to protect them. Of course they only work if people live in true Islamic society and really abide by Islamic principles which doesn't happen anywhere in the world today, hence the misuse we often see of these laws and that is sad, it gives non-Muslims a wrong view of true Islam.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

even if i have some issues with sharia law, i do love the fact that iran had done the "eye for an eye" ruling for the Ameneh Bahrami case where she had acid thrown on her by her rejected suitor. If he really loved her he wouldn't have disfigured her entire face by throwing acid on it just b/c she didn't love him.

the eye for an eye seems very appropriate in this case even if it is a highly unusual judgment for iran, I'm glad(not sure if that's the word i want to use) the criminal court ordered Majid Movahedi to be blinded in both eyes from drops of acid in response to a plea from his victim, Ameneh Bahrami. It seems very fair, the pain she felt he will feel too, she won't get her beauty back or her sight but atleast she got some kind of justice

in a nonsharia court he would probably just get a few yrs in prison

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

psyah bhai i respect your knowledge on islam but since you've never really tried to learn about hinduism from a learned hindu, i would prefer you to not talk about religions you don't know much about or have no interest in learning about. this is something you probably learned from the zakir naik site and boy does that man know nothing about other religions. i see zakir naik's site to be on the same level as the "jihadwatch.org" type of sites. just trying to defame and promote false info on other religions just to make one's own religion seem superior is not the way to go for zakir naik

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Peace Nisha25

As you are well aware I do not talk about other religions, and if I do it is to bring home a certain point. The reason for my mentioning Hinduism was well calculated to demonstrate it is easy to hurl derogatory comments about a religion if one so chooses and secondly why should we always be defending Islam ... why are we always made to go on the defensive ... obviously the Hindu religion has not achieved one end and that is ... it has been unable to achieve a coherent approach so the people who follow it according to my experience hide this fact, they pose as democratic, scientific, rational thinking people some of whom are out to make a few stabs at Islam, but want other religions namely their own to be "saved" from the same level of scrutiny. Why is that? Is it because they are afraid that it will uproot something? No ... I didn't get what I said from Zakir Naik, but he may have said it too.

I do have an interest in learning about other religions ... unforunately there is no one qualified enough to speak to me about Hinduism therefore it remains mysterious to the people who follow it and untouchable to the those who wish to cross-examine it. There is nothing wrong with scrutiny as long as it is being done with sincerity - alas that is how you are regarding, Islam and the Qur'an surely. There is nothing in Islam I am ashamed of talking about, how about the Hindus with their religion or Christians with theirs? Surely this is yet another thing I love about Islam.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

it's sad, maybe that's why i have such a big issue with all these religions and even atheist viewpoints. all you needed to do was explain your interpretation of those islamic concepts that chintu was weak in knowing about but what you're doing in this post is very different. just like with other religions, even within islam, there are a couple things that are subject to interpretation and even islamic scholars disagree on, am i wrong? for instance, the concept of misyar(sunni)/muttah(shia), whether or not it is permitted is still debatable right? i didn't see anything about it in the Quran, or maybe i might have missed it.

is it just for this mudslinging contest that this thread was started. "oh now we can say ignorant stuff about hinduism, buddhism, judaism, christianity." your last paragraph is showing ignorance again and its another tactic of showing islam as superior while having no knowledge on other religions....see why that last paragraph is messed up

why is there a fear of learning about other religions? if a person is strong in their basic beliefs there wouldn't be any fear of educating oneself on other belief/atheist systems.

maybe you could start a thread on "questions about islam" in which nonmuslims could ask their queries on islam so their views would be clarified.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Peace Nisha25

There is no mudslinging in my post. I have simply said it again that in the attempt to safeguard Hinduism from the SAME level of scrutiny that you wish Islam to be put is by arguing that Muslims aught to be this good and aught to be that good. It is true that Islam promotes forgiveness and patience, but it is not passive and it permits counter-stikes that are no more than what has been done.

If you look at my counters to what either Unos or chintu_bhopali have unleashed you will see that mine are far less severe. My gripe is that they are being deceptive and I have no reason to entertain them, but I am ... the reason for bringing other religions in to this is to prepare a level playing field. Why should I allow careless remarks to be made about Islam? If a person has a serious question he will ask it in a serious way after doing the level best of his research. I'm sorry if you don't like this but my way to filtering the deceivers from those who are genuine in their questions is by getting them to subject their beliefs on a level playing ground at least then we are both forced to give due consideration to one another. Otherwise the opposite number holds all the cards to taunt and ridicule without fear that the same "can potentially" be done to them. Not that I will. Rather if you look carefully again I only made the suggestion of the failing of Hinduism. It is not something that I have said in accusation - to prove Hinduism is misunderstood (i.e. a good way of life) then please send a Hindu who is capable of at least representing his religion until then I will not speak to the people who are only interested in one sided conversations resorting to abuse upon failing to match up to the Islamic standards. No Muslim is perfect ... but sure enough without bias I say ... that the Muslims on this forum never stoop to the lows that some Hindus have stooped to here ... and before you claim this is an insult on Hinduism it is not ... it is a direct complaint on the so called representatives of Hindus on this forum - who claim they don't represent it ... and they say this to avoid criticism ... to have thought they don't even have the decency to admit who they are and what they truly believe. If a Muslim did that he would be designated weak in faith.

So if I am mudslinging I am not taking down the religion ... I am doing so on those individuals ... and I there is certain point where people just get too much of a wolf in sheeps clothing ... as if they have not been seen!

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

psyah bhai it wasnt just your post i was referring to when i mentioned "mudslinging", i didn't think you would take it so personally when i said that. anyways, can't lkk or any of the mods just move chintu's questions and your answers to them to another thread and then can't we get back to the topic

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Respect of Women

:salam2:

Orignal thread is splited. You are welcome here to discuss respect of Women. Please stay on topic, have a peaceful discussion and don’t write such comments which insult others as well as not to pass such comments which provoke others to fights.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

This incident took place 7 years ago, but I don't believe the punishment has been carried out yet.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Sure, what aspect of Hinduism do you want to talk about ?

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Re: Respect of Women

There is no need for anyone of us to be defensive about our religions. Women were treated as objects and commodities in many cultures and that was also true in Arab culture. Islam did not bring an overnight change but made people realize that gender, color, nationality do not make anyone better than anyone else.

Plus you have to understand that within 23 years, Islam changed the Arab culture from burying their infant daughters to looking at their daughters as the doorway to paradise, and making parents proud of having daughters. That alone in my opinion was a huge mind shift and Islam should get the credit of that

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Sorry, you do make a valid point but I lost all interest after reading her name. Amina Wadud is a femi-nazi who twists Islam to suit her ideology.

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Re: Respect of Women

Peace sister Nisha25

I don't really take things personally, but passions run high sometimes when fairness in discourse is in question. This is all we have. I mean when a person feels so strongly to bring down an aspect of a given religion then they should do so when they have something better to offer. If they have nothing better to offer then it is best to remain silent. You'll notice whenever I talk about another religion I don't do it to ridicule them, but rather to show comparison to Islam.

There was once a Hindu acquaintance I was talking to about jihad and he felt it so important to state that Islam was a religion of war and made war a holy act and tried to justify his stance using references for jihad. You know as well as I do people who do this are not looking for betterment of humanity he had no intention to invite us to his way just to dismantle the stronghold that our belief has on us. Well in response I told him that the Baghwad-Gita was set in a setting just about jihad and how Krsn advised Arjn to fight despite his worries about the Pandav being family the fact that they represented evil was the reason to fight - and in that context it was good.

My point was if people were more concerned with their own scriptures then would easily see the similarities in them with our scriptures and 99 times out of 100 the things we are criticised about are already present in previous scripture for example, hijab does not originate in the final version of Islam it came to the People of the Book, same with ritual slaughter of animals, same with stoning to death for adultery and war and other things that Muslims are criticised for are actually more severe and appear initially in previous scriptures. People have on the whole abandoned some of those practices thinking they are wiser than God! I can demonstrate why they are not ...

Anyhow ... if a person must criticise Islam at least he should make sure that that specific criticism is exclusive to Islam and not present in other religions or for that matter in his own religion and that includes atheists or those who follow secular laws.

Rather you will find much of the "praiseworthy" things you find today originate in Islam and had never before appeared in previous scripture. This is a testable point.

I hope and pray that people discuss things here for betterment and if they feel up to it let them show us how by not doing such and such for example hijab or heavy sentences on adulterers it is better for humanity.

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Peace The Player

Well since the topic is about respect for women please can you show references in Hindu scriptures how respect for women is realised?

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Under the main heading of respect for women, would you pls shed some light on the concept of 'Niyog' and 'Sati' in hinduism

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Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim

Well, one could agree or disagree with her, but calling her a femi-nazi? AFAIK she never made people kill each other and neither is she a rascist. It's unfair to call her a femi-nazi imo.

I don't agree with all of her actions and opinions, but that book certainly was excellent. That and 'Believing Women in Islam' by Asma Barlas made a lot of impression on me about interpretation of the Quran and one day I'm going to buy both. Insha Allah.