Respect of Women

Society Religion & Philosophy
141

Re: Respect of Women

Peace calypsodc

Welcome the GS ... that was gonna be my next question ... you beat me to it. However I see manusmriti has acquired legislative status and is more of a philosophical ode. It sees to hold religious significance but may not scripture in the same sense as Veda.

142

Re: Respect of Women

The more on `women were treated nice inm ancient Iindia’

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Women_in_Hinduism.htm

In ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti’’ means "power’’ and "strength.‘’ All male power comes from the feminine. Literary evidence suggests that kings and towns were destroyed because a single woman was wronged by the state. For example, Valmiki’s Ramayana teaches us that Ravana and his entire clan was wiped out because he abducted Sita. Veda Vyasa’s Mahabharatha teaches us that all the Kauravas were killed because they humiliated Draupadi in public. **Elango Adigal’s Sillapathigaram teaches us Madurai, the capital of the Pandyas was burnt because Pandyan Nedunchezhiyan mistakenly killed her husband on theft charges. **
In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men. One text mentions a female rishi Visvara. Some Vedic hymns, are attributed to women such as Apala, the daughter of Atri, Ghosa, the daughter of Kaksivant or Indrani, the wife of Indra. Apparently in early Vedic times women also received the sacred thread and could study the Vedas. The Haritasmrti mentions a class of women called brahmavadinis who remained unmarried and spent their lives in study and ritual. Panini’s distinction between arcarya (a lady teacher) and acaryani (a teacher’s wife), and upadhyaya (a woman preceptor) and upadhyayani ( a preceptor’s wife) indicates that women at that time could not only be students but also teachers of sacred lore. He mentions the names of several noteworthy women scholars of the past such as Kathi, Kalapi, and Bahvici. **The Upanishads refer to several women philosophers, who disputed with their male colleagues such as Vacaknavi, who challenged Yajnavalkya. The Rig Veda also refers to women engaged in warfare. One queen Bispala is mentioned, and even as late a witness as Megasthenes (fifth century B.C. E.) mentions heavily armed women guards protecting Chandragupta’s palace. **
Louis Jaccoliot, the celebrated French author of the Bible in India: Hindoo Origin of Hebrew and Christian Revelation said: “India of the Vedas entertained a respect for women amounting to worship; a fact which we seem little to suspect in Europe when we accuse the extreme East of having denied the dignity of woman, and of having only made her an instrument of pleasure and of passive obedience.” He also said: “What! here is a civilization, which you cannot deny to be older than your own, which places the woman on a level with the man and gives her an equal place in the family and in society.”

143

Re: Respect of Women

Manusmriti has detailed out each and every obligations and duties ,the people should perform and follow in their daily life.It has become a text for code of conduct for people and it is the Shariat of Hindus.

Manusmriti has even talked about Tax system which isone of the core systems of any governing machinary,that too centuries ago.Tell me which text in the world as old as Manusmriti talks abt it. Is it not followed in India now?Again various code of conducts touching daily lifes,Traetment of elders,parents all have bene detailed out on Manusmriti and we have been following it for centuries.

Another simpleexample is the Brahmin dominance as priests in India.This has been specially laid out in Manusmriti.

As regards to punishments,I have already told you about the prevalent socio/political situation. India is home of the Hindus( Atleast we consider like that) and it’s 80+ population belongs to Hindusim but Hindus do not enjoy any special religious benifits here.Now my answer is quite clear top you now,I hope.

My question is very simple and I do not know why you are not able to comprehend it. If you are believer of Advaita,why can’t you just say that all the gods/goddesses in this world are simple myths..If you can pick one example of Goddess Durga then why can’t you do the same with other religions**(ISLAM and Christianity in particular)** Or is your Advaita thought just confined within India’s International boundaries alone? Pls explain…

144

Re: Respect of Women

http://www.hindujagaran.org/DigitalLibrary/WhyOpposeManuCriticismsonManuSmritiAnsweredEng.pdf

Pls read page -9-10 :slight_smile:

Manusmriti as followed:-

  1. Vedic Samhitas and Brahmanical scriptures describe Manu’s words as efficacious and benificent as medicine.

  2. Valmiki,the author of Ramayana alludes to Mnau as an authority in the field of religious scriptures.

3)Ram who is worshipped as God by the Hindus quotes Manu’s verses to prove that his conduct has been in consonance with the directions given in the religious scriptures. Ram believed his actions were like a true ruler.

4)The Mahabarata ,proclaims at several places that the Manusmriti is a tried and tested constitution of life,and alludes to it’s writer as the greatest preceptor and jurist.

5)Puanas commend on him.

6)Acharya Yaska quotes Manu’s dictum in his Nirkuta in the discussion on equal rights for sons and daughters and thus regard him as authentic.

7)Kautilya quotes Mnau as the authority(Arthasastra).

8)Brihaspiti,a writer of one of the smritis regards the Mnausmriti as the most authentic document and proclaims other smritis controverting Manusmriti as unacceptable.

9)Mentioning of King Dharsen of Valabhi kingdom isto be specially noted. He declared the Manusmriti as the authentic creed.

10)Again Dara Shikoh the brother of Aurangazeb ,Guru Goving Singh are mentioned…

145

Re: Respect of Women

http://www.hindujagaran.org/DigitalLibrary/WhyOpposeManuCriticismsonManuSmritiAnsweredEng.pdf

Page number 12 and 13 will end all your doubts as to who followed the Mnau rulings… :slight_smile:

The effect can be traced to South East Asia aswell. :slight_smile:

So let’s not debate here saying that Mnausmriti is a forgotten one that was just confined among only a setof people. Indeed it had wide speread like a big ocean and it is now. :slight_smile:

146

Re: Respect of Women

Peace Arlietter

If the whole town was destroyed over a single woman - does that include the women of that town? Does the love for a specific woman by a specific person translate necessarily to respect of women per se by all? BTW … Ravana was a demon wasn’t he? I mean he was not human.

So King Pandyan was killed and his city razed because he mistakenly accused someone of theft and killed him … what does that have to do with the wife of the accused? Surely every married man who has been killed wrongfully - wouldn’t the revenge for that be a result of his murder not the result of leaving his wife as a widow? This is stretching the respect reference for women. The revenge was for wrongful killing not for leaving a woman as a widow. And then the excess that this goes to - imagine how many women would be out of house and home for having their town ransacked … on account of a mistake.

These examples show excess in revenge and how wrathful a leader can be for his property or what belongs to him - such as a woman who he loved. Do similar examples exist where kings have defended the honour of women who they did not love … or who were simply mothers of one of their servants?

How were women from the enemies treated? Surely this would show unreserved and unbiased respect for women.

147

Re: Respect of Women

In Ramayana,after Ravana's death and Rama's victory ,Ravana's brother was asked to assume the leadership of the country and he was suggested to marry Ravana's wife.This is said to be was for averting Ravana's wife's death by suicide.

In Mahabarata,after the great war Pandava's victory, all the women and other aged persons were spared.But again the lives of women and children were often spared by the various warring factions in those earas.

148

Re: Respect of Women

http://www.yousigma.com/religionandphilosophy/yuddhakanda-chapter111.html

You can visit this site you will know how Rama held his enemy even after his death and Ravavna’s subjects were let go free.

149

Re: Respect of Women

Peace Arlietter

I am just asking the questions that one would ask ... no doubt there are signs of parallel morals and virtue that are shared in Hindu lore and Islamic history. Good responses as long as they are concrete and authentic ... but I'll take your word for it.

150

Re: Respect of Women

The Vedas which are the divine authority of Hindus gives rights to women. Whether they were implemented or not is the fault of the followers and not the religion. This happens in all religions where followers disregard holy words for their convenience.

Education of women:

Rig ved 10.85.7
Parents should gift their daughter intellectuality with power of knowledge when she leaves for husband’s home. They should give her a dowry of knowledge.
Rig ved 1.164.41
O men and women! A scholarly woman who has practiced or teaches one, two or four Vedas or four Vedas and four upavedas, along with grammar, etymology etc and spreads knowledge to whole world and removes ignorance of people is source of happiness for entire world. A woman who studies and teaches all parts of Vedas brings progress to all human beings
Atharva 14.1.6
When girls ignore external objects and develops foresight and vibrant attitude through power of knowledge, she becomes provider of wealths of skies and earth. Then she should marry an eligible husband.
Atharva 7.46.3
Protector of children, having definite knowledge, worth thousands of prayers and impressing all directions, O women, you accept prosperity. O wife of desrving husband, teach your husband to enhance wealth.
Atharva 7.48.2
Scholarly, respectful, thoughtful, happy wife protects and enhances wealth and bring happiness in home.
Atharva 1.14.3
O groom! This bride is protector of your entire family. May she dwell in your home for a period and sow seeds of intellect.

Women and politics:

Yajur 20.9
There are equal rights for men and women to get appointed as ruler
Yajur 16.44
There should me a women army. Let the women be encouraged to participate in war.
Yajur ved 10.26
The wife of ruler should give education of politics to the others. Likewise the king do justice for the people, the queen should also justify her role.

Atharva 12.3.52
Women should take part in the legislative chambers and put their views on forefront.

Women and property rights:

Rig 3.31.1
The right is equal in the fathers property for both son and daughter

About polygamy:

Rig Veda 10.101.11
A man with two wives is pressed from both sides and weeps like a horse that neighs when pressed from both sides by spokes while driving a chariot.
*Atharva Veda 3.18.2 *
May a woman never face threat of another co-wife

General stanzas pertaining to women:

Atharva 12.1.25

Oh motherland! Give us that aura which is present in girls
Atharva 12.2.31

Ensure that these women never weep out of sorrow. Keep them free from all diseases and give them ornaments and jewels to wear.
Atharva 14.2.71

Hey wife! I am knowledgeable and you are also knowledgeable. If I am Samveda then you are Rigveda.
Rig 10.159
A women speaks after waking up in morning, “My destiny is as glorious as the rising sun. I am the flag of my home and society. I am also their head. I can give impressive discourses. My sons conquer enemies. My daughter illuminates the whole world. I myself am winner of enemies. My husband has infinite glory. I have made those sacrifices which make a king successful. I have also been successful. I have destroyed my enemies.”

151

Re: Respect of Women

Arls Bhai..

Great Replies. But What Make You Think That Hindus Uphold These Values In These Modern Times?

(I Have Graet Respect for You Since You Are Man With All The Virtues of Life But Joyful).I Have Seen In Karnataka That Hindus (Blindly) Do Not Regards These Values .

Hope You May recall Our Discusion Regarding ......................

152

Re: Respect of Women

Thanks Vinod Bhai. What About Their Penal System?I Want To Know. :D

153

Re: Respect of Women

Sorry to interrupt your discussion. I do not understand what U r asking him. Are U trying to say that the Hindus of Karnataka do not follow Values or that Hindus of Karnataka do not follow Manusmriti?

154

Re: Respect of Women

The rigidity of catse system where intermarriage and intermingling of “upper caste” and “lower castes” in your community may have come after Manusmriti was written otherwise how do you account for and explain these verses of Manusmriti. Manusmriti still seems to talk about varnas and not caste. There is a sea of difference between Varna and caste(jati). What do you say?

*2.28: The body is made fit to be called Brahmin only through study of scriptures, discipline, noble selfless deeds, study of duties, science and meditation, charity and goal oriented actions. *

2.238: One should acquire knowledge even from a person born in a low family. Similarly, **one should accept a noble woman as wife even if her family is otherwise not up to mark**

2.126: Even if he is a Brahmin otherwise, a person who does not politely respond to a greeting is actually a Shudra

2.168: *A Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya who puts efforts in other areas except understanding and following the Vedic precepts becomes a Shudra and his future generations also suffer from ignorance of Vedas. *

3.109 *one who eats by glorifying his Gotra or Family is considered an eater of his own vomit* Meaning:The*very act of glorifying their lineage or gotra to demand special privileges makes them deserving of condemnation]*

3.112: If a Shudra or Vaishya comes as a guest, the family should feed him with due respect*[why would this verse exist if “lower castes” could not intermingle with the “upper castes” ?]*

4.141: Never deny respect and/or rights to a person who is handicapped, uneducated, aged, not handsome, not wealthy or coming from a lower family. **These are NOT the parameters to judge a person.**

9.335: If a Shudra serves the educated ones, is polite, devoid of ego and stays in respectful company of knowledgeable ones, he/ she is considered as having a noble birth and stature

10.4: Brahmin, Kashtriya and Vaishya take second birth after education. **Shudra is he who could not complete education and is fourth Varna.**

So the above verses imply that Shudra was another word for and uneducated persons
*As for intermarriages across castes, what do you say about the existence of Anuloma and Pratiloma type of marriages *

155

Re: Respect of Women

By saying that it is the Sharia of Hindus, you imply that its being followed as rigorously as Muslims follow Sharia. Can you substantiate that claim on how and where its being followed (except for the remnants of the caste system that still exist) ?

Brahmin dominance as priests has been carried out since before Manusmriti. The examples about treatment of elders, parents etc are laid out in Bhagwad Geeta and Ramayana and that is what most Hindus follow. Why do you find Geeta/Ramayana in most Hindu temples/place of worship in house and not Manusmriti ?

What are you going to say next - that Chanakya's Arthashastra is also a Hindu scripture ?

Advaita Vedanta only talks about Hinduism, not any other religion. So my using Advaita Vedanta to rubbish other religions would be an arguement as ridiculous as the one you are trying to make with your Manusmriti examples.

I have already told you that Advaita philosophy believes that all Hindu deities come from the one supreme being. Islam and Christianity are already monotheistic religions so they also believe in One God.

156

Re: Respect of Women

Regarding how Manusmriti is followed,I have already posted in my earlier posts.You can just scroll up and read all of them.

Your second question is filled with ignorance and absured reasoning. Manusmriti is older than Ramayana and Mahabharata . You can find the quites from Manusmriti in both Ramayanan and Mahabharata. If you can not have a simple knowledge of this thing, what’s the point in bringing in such discussions? Again you can scroll up and see my quotes from Ramayanan and Mahabarata on Manusmriti. I can debate to the effect that since Manusmriti was written before these epics and these epics do tell about the virtues of life ,Manusmriti has played the profound effect on these sacred texts and the due credit should go to Manusmriti rather than Ramayana and Mahabharata( My Mother Goddess forgive me for that!).I would say Brahmins have been given special stature in Mansumsriti ,as the sole genesis for performing religious offerings,and it is mentioned in both Ramayanana and Mahabharata,which came after Manusmriti, and and even after centrueies and milliniums the same status continues today. So another profounding aspect and effect of Manusmriti in Hindu life.

Ohh yes Arthasastra is just a mythial one and would have come from Advaita… According to your theory of creating legends from vacuum. :smack:

Again you are trying to fish in a mud water. If Advaita believes in one supreme being and all the gods and goddesses have come from that ,how it differentaites other religions from the same theory?I am asking you one smple question.Do you have guts to say that all the gods and goddesses affiliated to all other religions**(Including Islam and Christianity)** in the world are simply mythical,according to your Advaita theory? Pls answer me Yes or No. How does you Advaita theory(the magic of creating Goddess Durga from vacuum and all other religios gods ,as they are,as if your school of thought is blind and deaf to them)is confined only to Hinduism. When I am talking about my religion I have the utomost belief and confidence that my deity The HINGOL MA (Balochistan),THE MOTHER GODDESS KALI , is the mother of this universe and it’s subjects, let alone Hinduism and it’s scriptures.

157

Re: Respect of Women

Arleitter,

U never did answer my previous queries,

The original version in Sanskrit known as Valmiki Ramayana dates to approximately the 5th to 4th century B.C.

The earliest known references to the Mahabharata and its core Bharata date back to the Ashtadhyayi (sutra 6.2.38) of Pāṇini (fl. 4th century BCE), and in the Ashvalayana Grhyasutra (3.4.4). This may suggest that the core 24,000 verses, known as the Bharata, as well as an early version of the extended Mahabharata, were composed by the 4th century BCE.

A range of historical opinion generally dates composition of the Manusmriti text any time between 200 BCE and 200 CE.

(Source:Wikipedia)

So how can Mahabharata and Ramayana which were composed earlier contain references to a work which was written 2 -4 centuries later?

Dr Surendra Kumar has written a detailed translation of Manu Smriti in Hindi (published by Aarsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi) that analyzes each shloka on various parameters to weed out those verses that are obviously interpolated.
He has deduced that of the 2685 shlokas of Manu Smriti, at least 1471 shlokas are adulterated. He has classified the adulterations as :

  • out of subject
  • out of context
  • contradictory
  • repetition
  • difference in usage and style
  • blatant contradiction with Vedas

Dr Surendra Kumar is not the only person to point out adulterations in Manu Smriti. Even many a western indologists like Macdonnell, Keith, Buhler etc have expressed the same.

So Manusmriti may have tried to draw inspiration from Ramayana and Mahabharat and not the otherway around as U r suggesting.

Do you have a link or reference that says that Manusmriti predates the epics ? Please provide it.

158

Re: Respect of Women

I have already given the links before.You can just scroll up and see . :slight_smile: .It was as an answer to both you and The Player,to avoid repitition. Thanks.

159

Re: Respect of Women

Psyah,

I do not mean to offend but can you please explain to me the concept of Sharia ?
As per what I have read, Sharia is the code of conduct or religious law of Islam. Most Muslims believe Sharia is derived from two primary sources of Islamic law: *the precepts set forth in the *Qur’an](Quran - Wikipedia), and the *example set by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad](Muhammad - Wikipedia) in the *Sunnah](Sunnah - Wikipedia).

so who first authored the Sharia ? Was it your prophet ?

Further more,

Sharia has been defined as:

  • “Muslim or Islamic law, both civil and criminal justice as well as regulating individual conduct both personal and moral. The custom-based body of law based on the Quran and the religion of Islam. Because, by definition, Muslim states are theocracies, religious texts are law, the latter distinguished by Islam and Muslims in their application, as Sharia or Sharia law.”[19]](Sharia - Wikipedia)
  • “a discussion on the duties of Muslims,” —Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb[20]](Sharia - Wikipedia)
  • “a long, diverse, complicated intellectual tradition,” rather than a “well-defined set of specific rules and regulations that can be easily applied to life situations,” —Hunt Janin and Andre Kahlmeyer[21]](Sharia - Wikipedia)
  • “a shared opinion of the [Islamic] community, based on a literature that is extensive, but not necessarily coherent or authorized by any single body,” —Knut S. Vikor[22]](Sharia - Wikipedia)

Source:Wikipedia

So who has the authority to decide if a law is Sharia or not ? If I understand this , may be then I can compare this with the authority and validity of smritis in Hinduism.

Thanks

160

Re: Respect of Women

None of your examples give the exclusive applicability of Manusmriti to Hindu life today, the way Sharia is applied by Muslims. You need to try better…

Totally incorrect !! calypsodc has already responded to you, so I would refer you to his post.

Not sure what your point is here :chai:

As per Advaita, all female deities (including Kali) and male deities are the embodiment of Brahman. Advaita does not comment on Islam or Christianity, so I am not sure what you want me to say there.

Its pretty obvious you are blowing hot air, Arlietter. I would recommend you go read up on Hinduism (whichever way you follow it) instead of spouting incorrect nonsense and misleading non-Hindus on this forum about the religion.