Re: Religious Perversion by a Preacher pedophilie marriage
What evidence do you have that a man only marries a young woman (girl is not an appropriate word because according to the law of nature you become adult once you hit puberty) for purpose of fulfilling his lust? You are presenting arbitrary claims without any logical explanation and evidences. Remember that burden of proof lies on you and also proving your point from couple of cases does not make it true for all the cases and therefore logically it is not acceptable.
No, the burden of proof lies with the grown man who wants to stick his grown penis into a little girl.
The law of nature is for animals, not higher beings like humans. Humans are not fully developed as soon as they hit puberty. Girls are not like cats that as soon as they are physically able they start spitting out kittens. That's animalistic, just as is a grown man bedding a little girl.
No, the burden of proof lies with the grown man who wants to stick his grown penis into a little girl.
Read carefully what you said and my response.
Your Claim: Old men only marry young girls (I have already explained that it is a wrong word) to satisfy their sexual desires and to make them slaves
My Response: Provide an evidence and thus burden of proof lies on you since you claimed it
The law of nature is for animals, not higher beings like humans. Humans are not fully developed as soon as they hit puberty. Girls are not like cats that as soon as they are physically able they start spitting out kittens. That's animalistic, just as is a grown man bedding a little girl.
I note your poor reasoning and contradictory statements. We are discussing whether we become adult or not when we hit puberty by the law of nature. We are not discussing whether we are mature enough to have sexual intercourse once we hit puberty. How do you know that an animal who has hit puberty is able to engage in sexual activities and mature but not a human?
If girls are physically able to have sexual intercourse and can give birth then they are mature and your admitted this so what are you smoking?
The argument of physically maturity is not true in all the cases. People living in hot weather physically mature faster. In some cases even 30 year old women may find hard to have sexual intercourse with their husbands in regard to physical pain and maturity.
*In Islam a husband is forbidden to have sexual intercourse with his wife if it harms her (physically or physiologically) whether she is 10, 20 or 40 years old. *
Let me give you an advice: playing around with topics and words and failing to prove your previous claims will not help you!
Sorry, I'm not going to argue any more the immorality of pedophilia. It's disgusting.
Let me give you an advice: Do not air your perverse thoughts in public and keep your penis in your pocket. Let little girls grow up and marry another adult. Otherwise you may end up in jail.
A society without pursuit of education advancement is deviant , barbaric and retarded and automatically impoverished , dominated, and enslaved . Most of the prison population is filled with illiterates and ignorant with average to below average education.
Education gives a person a chance for a prosperous future in society not religion,
*Most importantly education benefits society itself over anything else. *
Whether the doctor is religious or atheist if she saved your life it was solely due to her having an education.
Peace HYPERBOLE
Welcome to GS ... It seems we are not going to be seeing things from the same angle. A prosperous future hey? Is it really a human need to be prosperous? Islam teaches us to seek knowledge. That may be in education, but education should never be seen as the all encompassing term for the seeking of knowledge. Many uneducated people have been very 'prosperous' in one way or another.
Once again if a ‘girl’ to your criteria has started to menstruate and knows about marriage and wants to marry she should not be disallowed that choice. That is all we are saying.
I think Muslims view this topic with a bit more innocence than you. It may be that there are some perverts out there. Those perverts will not seek marriage, because it makes the whole thing legal and acceptable. Perverts never marry their victims it wouldn’t make sense. Some people are strange and society rejects them, but if they follow the rules of society then they should not be called what they are not.
It may be true that much older men are not acceptable for the marriage of much younger women in our society today, but much younger women DO have sex and have children from their teenaged boyfriends most of whom DO NOT have the means to support their illegitimate children. It is better that those boys marry the girls first don’t you think? In my books there are two things of relevance in marriage. Both need to be consenting ‘physically mature’ sane people, the second is the man needs to accept as obligation the welfare and finances of his wife.
Women are never to be enslaved by their husbands no matter what age the women are.
Read what is going on in our society in the UK these days …
A society without pursuit of education advancement is deviant , barbaric and retarded and automatically impoverished , dominated, and enslaved . Most of the prison population is filled with illiterates and ignorant with average to below average education.
A society? What the hell are you talking about? Such things are determined on an individual basis...I happen to have a Master's degree...my neighbor barely a high school education...I'd be the first to vouch for the fact that my neighbor is perhaps a better citizen than I since he is much more involved with the local community, with respect to volunteering, etc.
All you are doing is making a case for classism. No thank you.
I only demand respect with respect to education when it comes to my particular field of study...otherwise I am no more or less ignorant than anyone else...pretensions to greatness aside.
Once again if a 'girl' to your criteria has started to menstruate and knows about marriage and wants to marry she should not be disallowed that choice. That is all we are saying.
So your only criteria is that she has reached puberty, knows what marriage is and wants to marry? That's ridiculous. I have a 10 year old niece that wants to be an astronaut, should we go ahead and send her to the moon?
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I think Muslims view this topic with a bit more innocence than you. It may be that there are some perverts out there. Those perverts will not seek marriage, because it makes the whole thing legal and acceptable. Perverts never marry their victims it wouldn't make sense. Some people are strange and society rejects them, but if they follow the rules of society then they should not be called what they are not.
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A grown man attracted to little girls is perverse - masking it in marriage doesn't change that- it just tries to legitimize a perverse act. Sory, but a grown man wanting to stick his grown penis in a little girl lacks any "innocence".
[quote]
It may be true that much older men are not acceptable for the marriage of much younger women in our society today, but much younger women DO have sex and have children from their teenaged boyfriends most of whom DO NOT have the means to support their illegitimate children. It is better that those boys marry the girls first don't you think? In my books there are two things of relevance in marriage. Both need to be consenting 'physically mature' sane people, the second is the man needs to accept as obligation the welfare and finances of his wife.
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I'll add a third - a grown man needs to have sex and marry grown women.
Sorry, I'm not going to argue any more the immorality of pedophilia. It's disgusting.
Let me give you an advice: Do not air your perverse thoughts in public and keep your penis in your pocket. Let little girls grow up and marry another adult. Otherwise you may end up in jail.
*I note you have nothing meaningful to say and your poor attempt to attack me does not prove your points a bit and neither supports your ridiculous claimed that you made before. You are only showing that you cannot debate intellectually! *
I asked this before and I ask it again
What is childhood or girl and who defines? Why do we call a person girl or boy when this girl or boy has reached adulthood by the law of nature? Why human laws in different countries are in conflict with each other in regard to deciding the age of adulthood for people.
No one here is trying to justify what some men do but what we are saying is that if an older man marries an younger women or vice versa then there is nothing wrong with it. The person is not paedophilia at least not according to the definition.
Funny, I would say the same thing about your posts. I wasn’t attacking you, I gave you a piece of advice - pedophilia is not accepted in most countries and your views can land you in trouble.
Your questions that you repeatedly ask are irrelevant. If you don’t know why the laws of nature are different for man than for animals, I can’t help you there. I’m sure there is something in a hadith somewhere that explains that men are higher beings and follow a different set of rules than animals. There is a reason children stay with their parents well into their teens - there is a lot more for a child to learn than there is for a kitten, dog or mouse.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) defines pedophilia as “a form of paraphilia](Paraphilia - Wikipedia) in which a person either has acted on intense sexual urges towards children, or has sexual urges towards and fantasies about children that cause distress or interpersonal difficulty.[5]](Pedophilia - Wikipedia) A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile”.
I don’t care if someone marries a child or just has sex with the child without an official “marriage” or permission of the parents - it’s still pedophilia.
**First of all, no one here is supporting paedophilia and neither encourages marrying young men/women to older men/women. We are only saying that if a person marries to young man/woman (not children), then it is morally acceptable according to the law of nature. The person you consider child is not a child anymore once he/she hits puberty regardless of age. Let me ask you this once again, do you think a 50 year old man marrying a 20 year old girl is ok? Why or why not?
**
no I do not support paedophilia, the definition says that a person is paedophilia if he/she engages in sexual activities with a child; it does not say that young women. According to the law of nature a person is considered adult once he/she hits puberty. This is the absolute law of the nature which you keep denying on baseless and ridiculous logic.
Why are my questions irrelevant? You provide no logical reasoning and explanation! I asked you about animals above and you completely ignored my questions. If we do not want to decide a person’s adulthood by puberty, then how do we decide it and why all the countries do not agree on one specific age? Mind you these are not irrelevant questions! Why this law of nature only applies to animals not humans? Remember that we are discussing whether a person becomes adult once he/she hits puberty, not if that person is mature enough to engage in sexual intercourse. I have already given an answer to this above which was ignored completely.
*I agree and again it only proves my point not yours.
again, what you care or not care does not prove your arguments. This is your personal belief, it may not hold for all the cases!
In the US children can't join the military until they are 18. They can't drink until they are 21. They can't be tried as an adult until they are 16. They can't drive until they are 16. They can't buy cigarettes until they are 18. They can't go to an R rated movie until they are 17. They can't vote until they are 18. They can't donate blood until they are 17. They can't work until they are 15. These are all laws because children can not make responsible decisions. Yet you say they can make the life long commitment of marriage when they are only 10. So no, humans obviuosly do not become adults when they hit puberty. If they did then these age limitations would not exist - the law would just say when you hit puberty you can smoke, drink, vote, drive, work and join the military.
There is a learning curve for humans that animals don't have. Kittens can be weaned from their mother at 6 weeks and be fully functioning cats. Just because a little girl has started her menstrual cycle does not make her an adult capable of making huge decisions like getting married.
Humans are not animals. Just because you type it repeatedly, in bold and in red type, does not make it true. There are many "laws of nature" that work in the animal kingdom and don't translate to humans.
You are 100% wrong on your intepretation of pedophilia. That is your take on it, not the prevailing view. It is based on age - not whether or not a girl has gone through puberty.
So your only criteria is that she has reached puberty, knows what marriage is and wants to marry? That's ridiculous. I have a 10 year old niece that wants to be an astronaut, should we go ahead and send her to the moon?
A grown man attracted to little girls is perverse - masking it in marriage doesn't change that- it just tries to legitimize a perverse act. Sory, but a grown man wanting to stick his grown penis in a little girl lacks any "innocence".
I'll add a third - a grown man needs to have sex and marry grown women.
Peace Seminole
I don't know ... does your 10 year old niece know what being an astronaut is, wants to be an astronaut and has reached the age of puberty? ... Umm why does this sound irrelevant? Perhaps because wanting to be an astronaut is an insufficient analogy with getting married. One requires a qualification through training and education, the other does not.
A grown woman is one who has reached the age of puberty. All the laws of 'purda' in Islam apply at this age.
In the US children can't join the military until they are 18. They can't drink until they are 21. They can't be tried as an adult until they are 16. They can't drive until they are 16. They can't buy cigarettes until they are 18. They can't go to an R rated movie until they are 17. They can't vote until they are 18. They can't donate blood until they are 17. They can't work until they are 15. These are all laws because children can not make responsible decisions. Yet you say they can make the life long commitment of marriage when they are only 10. So no, humans obviuosly do not become adults when they hit puberty. If they did then these age limitations would not exist - the law would just say when you hit puberty you can smoke, drink, vote, drive, work and join the military.
There is a learning curve for humans that animals don't have. Kittens can be weaned from their mother at 6 weeks and be fully functioning cats. Just because a little girl has started her menstrual cycle does not make her an adult capable of making huge decisions like getting married.
Humans are not animals. Just because you type it repeatedly, in bold and in red type, does not make it true. There are many "laws of nature" that work in the animal kingdom and don't translate to humans.
You are 100% wrong on your intepretation of pedophilia. That is your take on it, not the prevailing view. It is based on age - not whether or not a girl has gone through puberty.
Peace again Seminole
Military until 18 - why not 17 like donate blood?
Drink at 21 - in some states I hear 18?
Drive until 16 - why not 15 like age for work?
Your numbers are superfluous ... Children to your standards drive motorcycles, and work for a living at the ages of 14 and may be earlier in some countries. What makes the US the standard for age of consent? What about Spain?
It is true the majority of people do not really qualify for marriage at such a young age as 10, but some do and those that do should be allowed to do so, to prevent out of wedlock sex. You make it seem that Muslims are trying to marry younger women as a norm that for some reason you will always get much older men marrying much younger women if allowed to do so. This is nonesense. Muslims are just as likely to seek women of a similar calibre to themselves. In Islam we are told of the limits. Muhammad (SAW) married widows and women many years older than himself too. So to come up with a sweeping statement like 10 years marriage is pedophilia needs revision, perhaps 10 years marriage for most females is not realistic any way not to Islam's standards not to the age of menstruation and not to the norms of today either, so why are going on about it???
I don't know ... does your 10 year old niece know what being an astronaut is, wants to be an astronaut and has reached the age of puberty? ... Umm why does this sound irrelevant? Perhaps because wanting to be an astronaut is an insufficient analogy with getting married. One requires a qualification through training and education, the other does not. A grown woman is one who has reached the age of puberty. All the laws of 'purda' in Islam apply at this age.
Yes, she knows what an astronaut is, yes she wants to be an astronaut and yes, she has reached puberty. The training an astronaut needs is no less important than the training and development a child needs to become a wife and mother. So it is very relevant analogy.
I will say it again - a grown woman is NOT one who has reached the age of puberty. If she were than I said above, there are all kinds of things she should be able to do but can't legally because she is NOT an adult.
BTW, just as marrying little girls is custom, so is purdah. Purdah isn't law, it's culture. But that's another story....
In the US children can't join the military until they are 18. They can't drink until they are 21. They can't be tried as an adult until they are 16. They can't drive until they are 16. They can't buy cigarettes until they are 18. They can't go to an R rated movie until they are 17. They can't vote until they are 18. They can't donate blood until they are 17. They can't work until they are 15. These are all laws because children can not make responsible decisions. Yet you say they can make the life long commitment of marriage when they are only 10. So no, humans obviuosly do not become adults when they hit puberty. If they did then these age limitations would not exist - the law would just say when you hit puberty you can smoke, drink, vote, drive, work and join the military.
First, thank you for proving my point that countries are in conflict with each other on deciding an adulthood age for people and even for different matters. Answer brother psyah's questions; you completely ignored them, not that it surprised! Second of all, when did USA's law become universal and should be applied to everyone? Who is USA to decide? A God? Did USA create the nature? Why do keep ignroing my questions and babbling about same nonsensical logic? Who decides this age? Even my help of colouring my arguments red is not helping you rather your responses are getting poorer and poorer.
There is a learning curve for humans that animals don't have. Kittens can be weaned from their mother at 6 weeks and be fully functioning cats. Just because a little girl has started her menstrual cycle does not make her an adult capable of making huge decisions like getting married.
Your analogy of comparing cats to humans is completely wrong b/c mind you cats do not live 60-70 years. So according to their life span, what happens between them is completely fine and cannot be compared to humans. This does not mean that puberty law only applies to them and not us. Have you done enough study on cats that they are mature enough to give births when they hit puberty? I have million times asked this before and i'm asking the same question again: why does this law of nature only applies to animals and not humans? Who came up this? Why is this law of nature to begin with? If it is only for animals then it is meaningless for humans. So then why do people get this feeling of physical changes and maturity? Shouldn't it only happen when they reach this certain age you are talking about? Why before? Why teens pregnancies if they only become adult when they reach this certain age?
Humans are not animals. Just because you type it repeatedly, in bold and in red type, does not make it true. There are many "laws of nature" that work in the animal kingdom and don't translate to humans.
Unlike you, I have provided logical reasonings and explanations to support my point. Unlike you, I have refuted your claims 100 times. Unlike you, I have not ignored your questions and asserted baseless claims. Please give examples of these laws which only work on animals and not humans!
You are 100% wrong on your intepretation of pedophilia. That is your take on it, not the prevailing view. It is based on age - not whether or not a girl has gone through puberty.
I'm sorry did I miss this? Who said it is based on age and who decides this age? What is this age 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 25, 30, 40? You have not proved anything and continuously ignored my questions how does that make my interpretation wrong. I'm not even interpreting it, simply going with the definition.
I will say it again - a grown woman is NOT one who has reached the age of puberty. If she were than I said above, there are all kinds of things she should be able to do but can't legally because she is NOT an adult.
I'm keep asking you who decides whether she is adult or not? Why a specific age? What is this age? Why conflicts among countries on deciding this age?
No, US law isn’t universal. But it highlights the higher though process in civlized countire that children are not mature enough for some responsibitlities. There is no on good definition of when a child is mature, experienced and wise enough to get married. And I don’t know how you come up with one standard - but it is not when they reach puberty.
Humans live approximately 5 times as long as cats, so if we extrapolate that, humans would start having babies at 2 1/2 years old. So even taking into consideration the much longer life span of humans, it is obvious cats are ready for adulthood/birthing much sooner than humans.
Do you really not see any differences between animals and humans? While your views on grown men having sex with children are animalistic, men are not mere animals. God requires much more of us. Animals don’t get married. They don’t face Mecca when praying. They have sex in front of others. They aren’t required to have just one mate. They don’t have food that is forbidden. They don’t have to cover up in front of the opposite sex. They can have sex with their siblings.
In the modern world, humans use toilets, wear clothes, have educational systems, insitutions and laws to protect children. Animals are not thinking, spiritual beings placed by God on this earth to rule over it. Funny how you want to compare us to animals only when it suits your argument. If animals can have sex with multiple partners, why can’t man?
Because, unlike animals, humans must mature, gain knowledge and experience before making life long decisions. Just because a little girl (yes GIRL) has a baby doesn’t means he was ready for it. If purberty indicates full adulthood, why doesn’t society let them drive, drink and enter the military? Oh, that’s right. Because they are kids.
**I have given you several. You have provided NO logical reasonings other than puberty indicates adulthood. I have answered that illogical argument by declaring that puberty indicates the physical ability to have sex and bear children. That’s all. It does not indicate that a little girl is ready to commit to a husband and bear children.
Society decides the age as they do all other laws. Parents should have a say so in any gray areas. And you are NOT going along with the defintion. I will post it again:
a form of paraphilia](Paraphilia - Wikipedia) in which a person either has acted on intense sexual urges towards children, or has sexual urges towards and fantasies about children that cause distress or interpersonal difficulty.* A person with this attraction is called a pedophile".*
Modern society does not consider the onset of puberty as the end of childhood. You do, and that’s where you are wrong.
Re: Religious Perversion by a Preacher pedophilie marriage
Peace Seminole
I agree with your post #31
"There will always be exceptions, but a girl who has not experienced more than 10 years on this earth is not ready to commit herself to a life long relationship with an older man who DOES have experience and knowledge - hopefully enough that he will choose an adult to spend the rest of his life with. "
Islam is drawing upon the exceptions, most girls do not go into puberty at age 10, most are later than this, some are earlier. Islam is not making the exception the norm. Islam is not going to convict people of crimes when all they are doing is caring for people in a legal manner. Again the age of consent is not the norm in any social or religious circle. You yourself have admitted there will always be exceptions.
"There will always be exceptions, but a girl who has not experienced more than 10 years on this earth is not ready to commit herself to a life long relationship with an older man who DOES have experience and knowledge - hopefully enough that he will choose an adult to spend the rest of his life with. "
Islam is drawing upon the exceptions, most girls do not go into puberty at age 10, most are later than this, some are earlier. Islam is not making the exception the norm. Islam is not going to convict people of crimes when all they are doing is caring for people in a legal manner. Again the age of consent is not the norm in any social or religious circle. You yourself have admitted there will always be exceptions.
My "exception" argument was not at what age a girl hits puberty. My point is that the physical readiness for bearing children could have nothing to do with her mental and emotional readiness. Just because a girl hits puberty doesn't mean she is ready to marry. So how does Islam or any other system determine these exceptions (little girls who are experienced, educated, stable, emotionally, physically spitirually ready) to marry?
And what does it mean "caring for people in a legal manner"? If an old man wants to care for a little girl, the proper way to care for her is to adopt her until she is ready to make her own decisions.
All this aside, whether a little girl is ready to marry or not, is almost secondary in my mind to "why would a grown man want to marry a little girl"? Shouldn't a marriage be a partnership? How can an inexperienced girl be a partner? Her personality, likes, disklikes, etc haven't even been established. "What does the man get out of it"?