religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

I do not think you understood what Jafri said.

First: Sceince cannot take place of religion and nor religion has any real conflict with science if used for benefit of mankind and is not in conflict with basic religious teachings.

Second: Science is knowledge acquired from observations or experimentations. It does not teach anyone self discipline as correctly said by Jafri.

Third: Your comment that you do not need fear of eternal burning to realize common human values is true but it is the surest way to achieve that goal. When no one is looking, it is easier to break wordly laws. Happens all the time. If someone follows religion from heart, with fear from God, that person will not break common humanity rules. Besides, it is not just fear of eternal burning, the hope to live in eternal happiness is also and yet better incentive.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Peace Nisha25

Thank you for your question and I trust in your sincere queries I shall try to answer in the best way and hope that Allah gives you sakina (peace). First of all we need to understand and acknowledge Who it is that Authors the Qur'an. The very Qur'an tells us how He is close to us and Knows us. We also acknowledge through the Qur'an that He keeps us alive and nourished. This is across the board. It does not matter whether a person is religious or not, atheist or not, Muslim or not. He keeps us all alive or sustained. You see, we can say "all religions lead to Him" but then by saying this are we also saying that atheists who do not believe in God, but who do have a life code a sort of psuedo religion, will that religion also lead to God?

The premise of Islam is that before being made in to this form we were asked if we wanted to be made into heaven dwellers. If we wanted it then we would have to agree to the test of this world. He would send us prophets whom we should emulate and obey. Every time has it's own prophet and this is the last era that we live in today, so we follow the last prophet (SAW)and the Last Testament - which is The Qur'an.

Previous religions may or may not have at one stage been authorised by God and much of those had been altered by the people. The pure message of monotheism had been corrupted through time with the inclusion of the concept of many gods. We are made in a way that our souls are nourished if we worship Him in the correct manner. When we try to worship in another way, it is like poison to our souls and that is the warning that God is telling us about. The mushrikun are as much human and Creatures of God as any Muslim, it is not them but their actions that are questioned.

Here are a few concepts I tried to put into an emphatic form based on beliefs:

I love you because we share our religion
If you share not my religion I love you because you share my blood
If you share not my blood, I love you because you share my race
If you share not my race, I love you because you share my humanity
If you share not my humanity, I love you because you share my species
If you share not my species, I love you because we are both mammals
If you are no mammal, I love you because we are both with life
If you are not alive, I love you because we are both Earthbound
If you are not Earthbound, I love you because we are both of Creations of God
If you are not a Creation of God, then I love you because you are closer to God than I
If you are none of these, then I love You because You must be God.

There is no room for hate in a Muslim towards things, but towards 'actions' and 'concepts' which God has allowed us to create that fall into the domain of evil ... it is those things that we hate.

The logical definition of why such things are "viewed so badly" is because they distract us from "Loving God". We end up loving something else, either a manufacture of our own creative minds, or we appoint the worship and Love we aught to show to God on to members of His Creation. They may be praiseworthy, but they should not be ultimately praised.

In one manner "we are all going to find our way to Him" because every life human and jinn will stand before Him in trial. However, there is only one way that sanctioned by Him and throughout time that way has been Islam, albeit today many manifestations of Islam have names given to them by people rather than Allah.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

sharaabee

For the record, I have never confused science for atheism, however it is atheists who confuse their beliefs for being based on science. Many atheists have a religion and the religion they follow tells them that there is no God. They may have good things that they do - but to me these are all useless if God is not in the equation.

The atheists would sooner follow neo-darwinian evolution (which I call pseudo science - never science) purely because there is a strong suggestion in it that God does not exist. This attachment to that particular strain of evolution (psuedo) science is unscientific because it is biased. They only agree with it because it supports their opposition to God. If it was done properly it would only support the existence of God. To me finding 'truth' is part of the formula of ethics and goodness and if we are nice and don't murder and don't rape, but we settle for the lie of no God then this is hypocritical to me.

In lieu of that most atheists often try to justify that neo-darwinian evolution is a solid science. Assuming that it was a solid science, we would then call upon the unethical elements of neo-darwinian evolution to show to the atheists that their belief of there being no God cannot possibly stem or be proven by evolution, because if we did that then we would also have to resort to showing them the fuller picture of evolution. I said this to an atheist who was pro-evolution and you know what he said to me. He said that humanity in its attempt to take care of the sick and elderly is part of our evolutionary cycle that is going backwards. He said and believed that if we were true to evolution we would dominate and/or get rid of the sick people. I however assert that evolution should exist in our actions and that we should try to get rid of sickness and disease not the people who it inflicts.

Atheism is one such religion that has made the stupid more stupid. Science is not to blame, even that pseduo-science we call evolution is not to blame. Even though I may think atheists are stupid because they criticise theisitic religious people for being religious, they in fact are worse because they themselves follow a religion which may be just as insecure in its foundations as other religions and are prone to the same biases towards to their own 'religion' as well. I don't criticise a religious person for being religious because that would be hypocrisy since I too am religious. Why the atheists don't pose this to themselves is beyond me. (Atheists are religious because they have faith that God does not exist, and a set of practices that humans should follow)

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

psyah, no matter how much you try to sugar coat the issue, I just can't get myself to see it that way. it reminds me vaguely of the caste system and the pure muslims/pure muslim practices as how the 'pure' brahmins are made to be and the impure nonmuslims/idolators and their impure practices are at the way way bottom.

I lose that human side when I get myself to swallow that way of thinking and accept those verses as "truth". i just will not see it in such a discriminatory way and i refuse to think that God only likes to be worshiped in a particular way by particular pure people and that's the only way to become one with God. God's just God, i can't imagine God being so discriminatory that he/she/it would send such a sacrificing soul like mother theresa to the fiery pits of hell just b/c she didn't submit to Allah before she died.

I don't need an Intro to Islam from you, I've already learned about islam from other muslims that were highly knowledgeable on islam. i just wanted to see how you rationalize those verses that talk in such a horrible way about nonmuslims. i wish your comments were a bit more to the point as well. thank you

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Peace Nisha25

I've already answered these concerns and it appears to me you are unable to see what it is I am saying. Islam deems an act evil and those who do evil are evildoers, it does not matter what we think. We can't say everyone is saved because that will defeat the purpose of being good or of belonging to a particular faith. It would mean in the West I could be Christian, at work an atheist and in the East something other. These dogmas are very different. Also the biggest logical flaw in accepting every religion is that by accepting Islam you are saying that it is true that "we are not supposed to worship other gods" by accepting another religion you are saying it is true that "we are worshippers of Christ or Krishna for examples". These cannot be both true at the same time, impossible. We cannot possibly say that we accept all religions as true because at least one of them might say it is the only truth, in which case you as a person who says every religion is true has to accept the what Islam says as true. If Islam says being a mushrik is wrong then you can't possibly say Islam is wrong for saying that because you initial claim is that "all religions are true or lead to God". Fallacy upon fallacy.
We should ask ourselves that do our reservations of the Qur'an saying things about certain people that can't accept because they are wrong or because there are therein bitter truths to those words that biases stop us accepting.

Lastly, I can't say anything to move your heart to truth unless God does this and you allow it to happen. All I can do is pray for it to happen. So May Allah (SWT) guide you and me and all of us. Ameen.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

how exactly is it a religion of peace then if it shows nonmuslims/idolators as evil doers and nonmuslim practices as acts of evil?

never said all religions are true for me. i said all religions have bits in them that are beautiful but all have flaws or issues i don't like and will not accept as "truth" including islam for me.

why would i use islam or islamic verses/ways of thinking in viewing God? so basically i don't see being mushrik as being wrong. all i was saying was that God has different names and Allah is one of those names.

why does the quran even need to mention nonmuslims as evil doers?? there are so many verses that are constantly making nonmuslims idolators out to be these impure, hateful creatures that are trying to lead the pure muslim away from the 'right' path. it's like how gossip is, talking constantly about the bad in others.

why doesn't the quran just talk about how a muslim can be good rather than bring up the nonmuslim and say all these hurtful horrible things about nonmuslims

there's so much brahmanical arrogance shining through in this statement of yours brother psyah, it's sad that you don't see it. it isn't a very integrating thought, it doesn't bring humanity together, it's very segregating and yet you're expecting me to accept it and allow this discriminatory "truth" into my heart b/c somehow you're speaking for God now all of a sudden.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

this is from diwana's post, so it's a direct copy/paste so nothing is taken out of context or misinterpreted here.
I can't think in such an arrogant way about other human beings. apologies. a muslim isn't even supposed to wish a nonmuslim on their festivals b/c they would be promoting unislamic practices. I don't detest islam, I don't hate it but i definitely refuse to see it the way these show nonmsulims including idolators to be.

Pickthall :He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may hate it.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who hath sent His Apostle with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may hate (it).

Hilali-Khan: It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

Shakir: He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Sher Ali : HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters may resent it.

Khalifa: He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

Arberry: It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may uplift it above every religion, though the unbelievers be averse.

Palmer: He it is who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over every other religion, averse although idolaters may be!

Rodwell: He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.

Sale : It is he who hath sent his apostle with the direction, and true religion: That he may cause it to appear superior to every [other] religion; although the idolaters hate it.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Nisha!

As mentioned in that thread and will say again, the verse is not saying Islam/Muslims hate anyone who hates Islam.

The verse is saying no matter how much idolators hate the fact that islam will prevail, it is going to happen. Simple.

Off course prevailing of islam is not what idolators would ‘love’ to see. You admitted before after I repeatedly asked the question would you like islam to prevail?

First you said no and you wish there was no religion at all to prevail and just the idea of God. Post # 89 of that thread.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/all-views/460933-tony-blairs-sil-converts-to-islam-5.html#post7838292

You also mentioned the idea is scary since there would be a war. And then lastly you mentioned if islam prevails there will not be peace becuse of sectarianism. That is when I said I feel like I am talkng to a troll.

Ok, aside from whatever the reasons, isn’t it true you will not like the idea of Islam be prevailed?

In the end, the verse is true. :slight_smile:

Oh one more thing:

When you need an answer about Quran and Islam, you ask muslms randomly the questions. You make a judgement on islam based on their ablity or no ability to answer.

But! ..When I gave you the direct quotes from Gita, you said

"plz dont bring up other religions unless there is a hinduism scholar or anybody that is vastly knowledgeable on any other religion present as well." :hmmm:

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

^diwana i don't want any religion to prevail, did you also get that from my post or did you choose to not see that. why do you have to keep bringing up other religions. why can't you just talk about islam????????????

just cuz my profile name is a hindu one you start talking about hinduism? do you really think i'm going start defending hinduism now? think again.

what is your point in bringing up hinduism? Islam is the 'superior' religion so you won't need to attack other religions or even bring them up(especially when there's no scholars from those religions here to speak on their behalf) see? talk only about islam. hope now you won't feel the need to bring up hinduism, buddhism, christianity,jainism, sikhism or any other religion when you're trying to defend the need for religion to stay and specifically islam to prevail. I would prefer it that way. If you bring up other religions, I'm dropping out of this discussion. hope you understand.

i figured psyah and you are pretty knowledgeable on islam that's why i asked you two to clarify and tell if the interpretations of those verses were correct. i copy pasted your post, it's not like i picked out verses from some random site and pasted them here. I would never do that.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Your sarcasm is duly noticed. I had said in that thread that **a good muslim does not think superior of others. **

I think you missed the last post # 96 of mine in that thread. Already answered there.

And in post # 90, I showed other religions also think they are superior and promote their religions to prevail by inciting people to religious fighting.

Post # 96

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

God help me. it's like you don't even bother reading my comment. try again i'll let you read my first line once again and that big middle paragraph again so i don't have to repeat myself over and over again.

it would be so much easier if there was just a simple belief in God! no religion wars, which you so strongly want to do here and which I don't want any part of. please tell me you understand this time sirji.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

:D

I hear you loud an clear. Not a new concept my friend.

Without religion there is no God.

Is God something to be placed in a shelf looking at you speechless? Or Is it like a shiny pin on your collar?

Why do you need God anyway if you deny religion?

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

why does God need to be defined in a certain way? God's just God, and who says that there is no God without religion

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Imagine, by John Lennon.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Salaam everyone.

Just wanted to clarify couple of points. Dharmic Yudha is not religious war - it means righteous war. So the Gita does not preach one should fight for religion. Rather, it states, one should fight for Dharma. It is the Kshatriya’s duty to uphold Dharma. Corrections are in red font.

I do not want to get into the debate. However, I would like to point out the slight errors in the interpretation of the Gita. You will hopefully acknowledge that the meaning changes significantly when religous is substituted with righteous.

Peace.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

I am aware of that argument. Not a place to do that. I brought the translation from a Hindu site. 'Religious' is th word accepted by many other sites.

The essence remains. Superiority concept. Self loving concept and saying others are wrong. Why would one fight otherwise unless one thinks that person is on the right side of fence (righteous)?

Remember, I said above the reason why quoted it. Not to bash hinduism like I see bashing of islam so commonly.

Thank you. :)

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

Just wanted to clarify - I did not perceive your comments to be bashing Hinduism at all :). I agree with you that you were doing no such thing.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

God and religion go hand in hand. Can't separate these two. God gives commands, basic codes of conduct, beliefs and priciples, That is called religion.

You can collect the good from every religion. Fine. Still have to define God in term of a religion.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

in terms of your post to southie ji, i hope you didn't think i was bashing islam in any way, i was just trying to show you why my mind/conscience wouldn't let me accept those verses about nonmuslims/idolators as truth. i can't see a fellow human being that way. and those verses you posted from some hindu site are fine, i just would prefer a hinduism scholar to discuss those with you and not bring them up here. just like i would only want somebody knowledgeable on islam to speak about it just so nothing is taken out of context or misinterpreted.

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Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid

ok why do i need to define God in terms of a religion? you still didn't tell me the reason for that. isn't allah supposed to be undefinable in islam? not really a new concept

people have this habit of saying "my religion teaches me that God does or says this/that" and they use God's name to allow themselves to be insanely prejudiced against other humans or judgmental or arrogant, "God says homosexuals are criminals, God says they should burn in hell".......and on and on.

why do they feel the need to speak on God's behalf?

my brother is an atheist and he's the most disciplined person i know, plus he's an academic scholar. wakes up at 5:30am, eats breakfast,lunch,dinner promptly at a certain time. he never needed religion to teach him to be disciplined or for codes of conduct.

everything in moderation is the golden rule in terms of anything in life for me. giving to people less fortunate, treating people the way you would want to be treated, a little 5 yr old would be able to tell me that. does a religion need to tell me that?