Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
Okay since the religion making stupid people more stupid is agreed upon, can somebody illustrate how can it make a wise man more wise?
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
it doesn't matter what you follow, it does matter how you follow... guess every brain have some level of intellectual neurons among the rest of morons. .. jezz that rhymes.. give me a break..
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
if your argument is logically sound, attack the rest of you. witch hunts/blasphemy and religion goes hand in hand.
so you're an atheist? or do believe in God and not in any particular religion?
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
Okay since the religion making stupid people more stupid is agreed upon, can somebody illustrate how can it make a wise man more wise?
Goes hand in hand.
Those who are not made stupid by religion are wiser.
Notice, it is a double statement.
Athiests and religious both will love it just like what OP said in title.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
psyah bhai I didn't get to put the whole devotional poem in my sig, it wouldn't fit, hence the ...... A true Lover doesn't follow any one religion, be sure of that. Since in the religion of Love, there is no irreverence or faith. When in Love, body, mind, heart and soul don't even exist. Become this, fall in Love, (with God ) and you will not be separated again.
thank you,i read most parts of the quran on my own, the english version of it but still have to learn more. i'll look over that site
Peace sister Nisha25
I only just read your reply. You see I think we need to look closer at what is being said by Rumi. He is not talking about ALL religions. He is not even talking about religion at all. He is talk about 'faith'. He is saying there is "no faith" at all. I don't see how "having no faith" translates to "doesn't follow any one religion" and in turn justifies the position that "all religions lead to God".
Now to clarify to you the basic understanding of ihsan - which is a concept rooted in Islam. It is that the highest level of 'faith' - the levels of faith are - belief, conviction, observation.
The greatest amount of faith required means the largest leap to jump to unknown territory. This greatest amount of faith is hence the lowest rank of the "true lover", because they are unable to enter without reservation. Next, a moderate amount of faith is required once conviction sets into a soul. However, when a person starts to 'feel' God, 'see' God - moves into a state of "observation" then there is no longer any 'faith' because the least amount of faith is required for something that you can "see" - Rumi is telling us to move ourselves in to a position where we can "observe" God and no leaps of faith will be required - and then we can become people who fully enter the Love of God.
The reason why I say this is misinterpreted is because this poetic position of Love of God and to do so with abandonment and without 'faith' is a position rooted in Islam. So when people say to me Rumi is sanctioning other religions which they call "faiths" that is a huge error. On the other hand such Gnostics would not turn away people of any faith in order to invite them to their way. They would be amongst the best of the inviters to the "religion without faith".
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
Okay since the religion making stupid people more stupid is agreed upon, can somebody illustrate how can it make a wise man more wise?
Peace Ranjhaa
I would agree and elaborate with what diwana bhai has said. If we say religion is 2 - which is a multiplier of state, then a stupid person who is on the number -1 when in religion becomes 2 x -1 = -2, likewise the wise person who is 1 becomes 2 x 1 = 2.
Another analogy would be the same thing mentioned earlier about "religion is a tool" - Let's say a poor user of a drill making a hole in a wall will for sure ruin the wall make gouged out holes that are useless for the intended use and leave the wall in a state that is worse than before. More work is required to fix the wall let alone hang the painting or shelf. On the other hand the person with the same drill who is experienced will drill a hole perfectly and in no time will place the shelf on it making the wall space useful.
This is the basic truth about religion.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
psyah
well i guess that's your interpretation of Rumi poem, no where does he say that he is referring to islam or the islamic way of looking at all things, although he does mention prophets. i do see mohammad, jesus as great men, have a great amount of respect for them
what is faith anyways. does a buddhist need faith in God? buddhism only concentrates on a person getting to a state of nirvana which is the ultimate goal for them.
a person's love for God shouldn't be judged by anybody and nobody has the right to do so, it's a private conversation, a sacred one between a human being and God for me.
the ultimate goal is that oneness with God no matter what route a person takes to achieve it, for me.
like any poem, it's left up to the reader how the poem is interpreted and that is how i interpret his poem.
religions have a way of separating people from each other, some of those verses in holy books about non-coreligionists or even people in the same religion are hard for me to swallow or rationalize. since i'm in a muslim majority forum, i'll talk only about islam, since there are no scholars of other religions here, there are so many verses in the quran that talk about nonmuslims/idolators/nonmuslim practices in not such a nice way. not easy for me to accept those verses no matter how hard other muslims have tried to explain them to me.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
psyah
I am sorry but the multiplier logic really goes over my head here. But we can take the tool analogy further. We know and have seen how any religion can be used by otherwise perfectly sane people to do unimaginably inhuman acts and cause distress to everybody around them. Of course, we can always argue that it is not being interpreted properly or the workmen should be blamed and not the tools, but no one can argue that the tool does not play a part. If there was no tool, the workmen at best would have been unemployed and perhaps may have lead an otherwise sane life. What I am interested in knowing is how can religion make a positive impact on any person, make the great earth that we inhabit a better place for everybody?
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
Peace Ranjhaa
I would agree and elaborate with what diwana bhai has said. If we say religion is 2 - which is a multiplier of state, then a stupid person who is on the number -1 when in religion becomes 2 x -1 = -2, likewise the wise person who is 1 becomes 2 x 1 = 2.
Another analogy would be the same thing mentioned earlier about "religion is a tool" - Let's say a poor user of a drill making a hole in a wall will for sure ruin the wall make gouged out holes that are useless for the intended use and leave the wall in a state that is worse than before. More work is required to fix the wall let alone hang the painting or shelf. On the other hand the person with the same drill who is experienced will drill a hole perfectly and in no time will place the shelf on it making the wall space useful.
This is the basic truth about religion.
Yes. A great response.
psyah
I am sorry but the multiplier logic really goes over my head here. But we can take the tool analogy further. We know and have seen how any religion can be used by otherwise perfectly sane people to do unimaginably inhuman acts and cause distress to everybody around them. Of course, we can always argue that it is not being interpreted properly or the workmen should be blamed and not the tools, but no one can argue that the tool does not play a part. If there was no tool, the workmen at best would have been unemployed and perhaps may have lead an otherwise sane life. What I am interested in knowing is how can religion make a positive impact on any person, make the great earth that we inhabit a better place for everybody?
Great question.
I do not remember the actual verse or meaning but essential meaning what I read was along the line that Quran says it brings people on correct path and can even make people go stray. I just never understood why would Quran make someone go stray? Does Allah wants people to go stray?
(The verse if I get time will post and what it actually means)
The great wisdom here is that, Quran is not a cookbook. Wasn't meant to be.
Otherwise ALL muslims and non muslims who read it would be taking the same message regarldess of their sincerity and pureness of minds. **It takes the human effort ALSO along with just reading the Quran to act wisely.**
A knife can remove cancer from the body and can even kill the person if not used properly. The goodness of knife will always be upon two factors.
1- How sharp it is.
2- Who is using it with what intention.
Other way I can answer.
It is not just religion, ANY ideology if taken too far to extreme can be harmful for people.
*If you read the history of mankind from the beginning of time, you will notice reason for 'mass murder' had never been religion. *
Millions of people have died in this world from non-relgious wars and conflicts including land dispute, ambition for power, custody of women or honor, simple brutal mentality and non religious ideologies.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment on this particular topic, even if my intentions are above board. I had not keenly observed the title of this forum/thread. Wanted to just add my input on the previous post.
But having looked at the title, it is a bit controversial. And as a newcomer, it is not appropriate for me to speak on a topic that is not my area of expertise.
So I humbly withdraw my post.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
psyah
I am sorry but the multiplier logic really goes over my head here. But we can take the tool analogy further. We know and have seen how any religion can be used by otherwise perfectly sane people to do unimaginably inhuman acts and cause distress to everybody around them. Of course, we can always argue that it is not being interpreted properly or the workmen should be blamed and not the tools, but no one can argue that the tool does not play a part. If there was no tool, the workmen at best would have been unemployed and perhaps may have lead an otherwise sane life. What I am interested in knowing is how can religion make a positive impact on any person, make the great earth that we inhabit a better place for everybody?
The multiplier analogy does work, but you have introduced another parameter which is not an act of good or bad but the absence of an act. In this case the absence of an act is the absence of religion. The absence of religion will not have the x2 multiplier. It just means that there is x1 multiplier with the absence of religion.
stupid religious -1 x 2 = -2
wise religious 1 x 2 = 2
stupid irreligious -1 x 1 = -1
wise irreligious 1 x 1 = 1
This shows the world view not the divine view, in the world view irreligious people are neither very stupid nor very wise.
On the other hand there is a divine view as well. Stupidity is not the definition of crime because crime is an evil act with intent for evil, however stupidity is merely a set of evil acts without the intent.
Coming back to the drill hole analogy, if a worker was hired to drill a hole for a shelf and he used the drill incorrectly the shelf could not go on, if he chose not to drill at all the shelf would still not go on. Choosing to avoid using a tool when we are supposed to use it is wrong as is using the tool incorrectly. In fact the person who uses the tool unwisely will be told off and may be trained for at least trying to use it, the other one will get sacked for not even attempting to use it.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
I completely understand and appreciate what you are trying to explain, but the only thing I am asking is to show how religion can make a person a better human being than he already is. Or to take diwana's excellent example, while we know there are many ways how religion can be used as a knife that can kill or cause disharmony but can somebody explain how it can be used to remove the cancer or make this earth a better place?
It is not just religion, ANY ideology if taken too far to extreme can be harmful for people.
That is very true, but the thing is that once we realize that a particular thing is or can be harmful even with its many benefits or idealistic thinking (communism for example) we try course correction and not pursue with it in the same manner. Why should religion be any different?
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
I don't know if you're Atheist or not but even Atheists believe that a person should be good. Where do you get these set of laws for being good? I don't see where it tells you to gain self discipline in science..
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
I don't know if you're Atheist or not but even Atheists believe that a person should be good. Where do you get these set of laws for being good? I don't see where it tells you to gain self discipline in science..
just b/c you don't believe in the concept of religion doesn't mean a person doesn't believe in God
bill gates is an atheist but he still gives a significant portion of his income to charity, did religion teach him that? if you have an excess amount of money and there are hungry people in the world, i think the human mind is smart enough to think oh maybe i should give some of the money that i have that i won't use for anything worthwhlie to those less fortunate. why should religion get credit for something our own minds can think up. einstein was an atheist and so many great thinkers in history were as well. they turned out just fine.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
I completely understand and appreciate what you are trying to explain, but the only thing I am asking is to show how religion can make a person a better human being than he already is. Or to take diwana's excellent example, while we know there are many ways how religion can be used as a knife that can kill or cause disharmony but can somebody explain how it can be used to remove the cancer or make this earth a better place?
That is very true, but the thing is that once we realize that a particular thing is or can be harmful even with its many benefits or idealistic thinking (communism for example) we try course correction and not pursue with it in the same manner. Why should religion be any different?
40 Hadith Collection Imam-An-Nawawi
There shall be no harm, nor reciprocating harm
Religion will provide the formula for goodness, in this example we are not allowed to harm nor allow harm to occur, to stop it occurring and to prevent it occurring. With religion such as Islam if nuclear technology was discovered then the bomb that can be created from that knoweldge would be prevented from being constructed due to the ethics as defined by our religion. On the other hand those who had other values made the bomb and paved the world towards the climate that we live in today.
Religion acknowledges the soul and that it too needs sustenance. Worship is the food for the soul. Those who do good for other people have a world view of 'goodness' and do their deeds for a purpose that fulfils them. Does it mean that if they stop feeling good about giving charity that they will stop doing it? Religion shows us what is good and we observe it even when it is not fulfilling to us.
We give charity and perform acts of worship often to serve our inner interests, but if we stop feeling content about worship we still will not stop worshipping God. It means that those who are religious will maintain an outwardly good behaviour even when their inner selves are not telling them to do so. The lucky ones will always have their inner selves saying "do good", but sometimes it tells us to do something else. Without religion we will not have a standard for good and no motive to continue.
Religion tells us how God prefers to be worshipped and what the best way of interaction with other is like. Religion will make us more patient in the face of calamity and reduce the rates of suicide.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
what a waste of time!
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
^ Peace sharaabee
That is incorrect again. Islam categorically tells us not to waste time. So either you are unaware of how best to use your time or the only intent of repeating such a statement is due the lack of your ability to sincerely consider religion as a best practice for humanity.
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
peace brother psyah
,
can you explain to me the logic behind all those verses about nonmuslims/idolators/nonmuslim practices which i have not been able to get myself to accept?
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
nisha .. you can interpret verses in so many ways.. call them symbolic.. meaning something else.. bcuz of th is.. bcuz of that.. it's all a sham.. theres alwyas a way to twist thigns around and make it into an explanation that you will be able to digest.. that's all the religious folks do..
Re: religion makes stupid people even more stupid
I don't know if you're Atheist or not but even Atheists believe that a person should be good. Where do you get these set of laws for being good? I don't see where it tells you to gain self discipline in science..
same mistake as psyah on the otehr thread.. science is not trying to be a replacement for religion... whats good and whats bad.. you shudnt need the fear of eternal burning make you realize that.. they are common human social values..