Fantoosh, Sorry, i was not trying to be “abusive”. The icon that i used was not intended to portray that in any way. Anyways - you are entitled to believe whatsoever you wish to. 
**
Zaberdast reply, Zakk. :k:
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*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Jihad; I see nothing wrong with the word. The day they pull the word "War" and "crusade" from the dictionary off the average English writer/politician, I might think differently. So Matsui when you hear your Congressman say a "war against the deficit" remember he's condoning violence:).
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If he straps are bomb against his waist to kill a bill, then that would indeed be violence. Non-Muslims don;t care what jihad is. It is muslims who do. We start caring when under the name of jihad (which even muslims can't seem to agree upon) decides to meet their political ends through violence. There seems to be no misunderstanding among the non-muslims what jihad means. why is there such confusions within muslims? Walk down the street in mainstreet USA, Jihad=Holy waR Plain and simple.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *As far as the invocation of God before people launch suicide attacks is concerned, the invocation of whatever belief you have is a common practice by any group attempting militant action. I do understand not everyone would die for God, some would just die for a red, white and blue flag and the New York Stock Exchange.
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Invocation of god is not something that is planted upon the Islamic terrorists. They themselves brand under religious monikers, seeking divine justifications by quoting scripture, ex..the Army of Mohammed or Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade etc.
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*Originally posted by Zakk: *A comment was made about Muslims not being able to live as in non Muslim states where in many of the countries Matsui you mentioned were Muslims the agressor? The War against the "moro's" was launched by the Spanish almost 4 hundred years ago, they wished to rid the Islands of the "infidels". Bosnia; who fired the first shot?, Kosovo? Chechnya? IN Russia's case the Muslim populations were acquired by CONQUEST. In India, which Muslims refused the authority of the Indian government?
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Isn't it amazing that non-muslim gov'ts spanning west to east are all wrong and muslims right. Does that not sound odd to you? The problem is that the wahabbi sunni brand of islam is a scourge that has corrupted the minds of otherwise peaceful and mingling multi-ethnic communtities. Until that scourge is eradicated, you will continue to make excuses and the rest of the world will continue to fight the terrorism resulting from the movement.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *The first intifidah, was a non violent protest check up your history, the problem with those sitting in Ivory Towers ia that they only realise their is a problem when THEIR lives or THEIR way's of life suddenly feel under threat.
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And if they respond to the terrorist threat. They are maligened by the terrorist and their sympathizers as callous and anti-this and anti-that.
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*Originally posted by Zakk: *If someone has a problem with the word Jihad, tough, I can't argue with those who don't want to listen. But if you are going to argue about History at least KNOW what you are talking about.
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Walk down the street man...ask 10 people what jihad means. 9-10 would say Holy war. The 10th person who is muslim would be confused about the meaning because of the conflicting messages coming from his mosque and that which is written in his scripture.
As I said Matsui, you have your opinion I have mine, let me rephrase what you've written. Walk down the streets somewhere outside the US and ask 10 people what "Iraqi liberation" means or for that matter "terrorism" means. 9-10 would say an excuse to to occupy and steal other countries wealth and impose the US's idea of a "puppet state" . The 10th person who could be a secularist would be confused about what exactly this liberation is about and what the US was fighting for because of the conflicting messages between your various leaders. :)
Explain to me one thing, despite the fact that Muslims and Islam has had almost nothing to do with the most violent century in Human History (the 20th Century), Muslims are accused of being violent people?
Let's be honest, you don't have a problem with the Word Jihad, you have a problem with Islam period:). So why beat around the bush:) (no pun intended), and play with semantics, when you have a problem with the religion? There is nothing noble about what you stand for Matsui, but if you or anyone else wants to know the truth all you have to do is look at the past read a bit of balanced history and look and see which people are being killed like flies and which are NOT.
Yes let's be honest, by inserting a lot of :) 's we can seem to appear oh so tolerant and loving. I do not only have problems with Islam. I have problems with many religions :), Like caste system that is adopted in hinduism:) or the fiefdom of the papacy in catholicism :) or the supposed choseness of the Jews :) So you see...I will not apologize for pointing out that when scriptures or tenets can be misused by people then something new is needed. :) Jihad as a political tool is an anachronistic tool.
I think you would be an excellent candidate for conversion to chaltahaism :)
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
*
i am sure they (your Muslim friends) are as scared of meeting you (a Hindu), as you are scared of meeting them. That's how this cycle of fear and hatred continues - because only one in a thousand among us possesses the courage to change our personal fears, biases and stereotypes towards others.
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The dread I meant was not mutual fear but mutual embarassment. There are finer sentiments in true friendship than fear and punishment. It's somewhat like when the neigboring parents fight and kids don't know how to face each other because of that. But all this is beside the point.
Jihad as practiced today has become aacts against innocent civilians and as such wis well within the definition of sin per Quron
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Originally posted by Matsui: *
**So you see...I will not apologize for pointing out that when scriptures or tenets can be misused by people then something new is needed. :) Jihad as a political tool is an anachronistic tool.*
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"Something new" is not needed. An accurate way of assessing and comprehending the scriptures is all that is needed.
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Originally posted by IceLander007:
Jihad as practiced today has become aacts against innocent civilians and as such wis well within the definition of sin per Quron
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IceLander007, Well finally we agree on something. It is against Islam.
By the way, Muslims all over the world practice jihad each and every day of their lives - every time they attempt to overcome laziness and perform one of the required fardh prayers, or to tell the truth in a situation, or to control one's anger. Any act of self-discipline as an attempt to reform one's personality, is also an act of jihad. Jihad as it is "practiced today" is not just acts against innocent civilians (what you see on CNN and other media outlets). There's a lot more to complex issues than meets the eye at first glance.
American Jihad, from about a year ago…
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/jihad_marash020605.html
**
Interesting read, UTD. Thanks for posting it up :flower1: From the above article - the definition of jihad in a nutshell:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
Where did I pick up the idea that Muslims are ignorant of their religion?
I picked up this idea at this pak.org gupshup website. Many Muslim participants have repeated it again and again. It is a fact.
When the Islamic States are questioned, they say this is not Islam or not as per Islam. (And so all Islamic States are rejected.)
Whatever act of Muslims is questioned, not only that of terrorists, answer is same. It is not as per Islam.
“Muslims are themselves responsible for defaming Islam’. I think, I have read these words in one of Nadia’ posting.
Why Friday prayers are exploited for political sermons? (This is also not as per Islam. Imams are rejected.)
I will never agree if someone says that Quran preaches violence.
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There isn't any Islamic State today...!
What is it that you consider "terrorist acts"?
Have you ever read the Quran and tried to understand its "Preachings"?
Thanks Different for supporting me.
Do not worry about my knowledge of Holy Quran!
I cannot understand how people can go eccentric in bulk after reading such a nice book.
Mr Zakk, do not you understand that you are fighting for the sake of fighting.
Let us not go in very far history of Islam…as you contradict all facts habitually.
Let us study what has happened in recent 40-50 years of Islam! Iran, Iraq, Libya or any other Muslim populated area…Very sorry to say that in all these areas Muslims are killed by Muslims and for that killings, your ‘Holy Jihad’ was frequently exploited.
**
It seems as though Hiroshima, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Palestine, Kosovo, Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Panama, and Chile have all been miraculously wiped away from the annals of selective readings of history.
if the invocation of god's mandate of Holy War awas used against Noriega, then I apologize on behalf of all Americans to you Nadia. But if it wasn't, then there is no similariies to the Holy War interpretation of Jihad by the islamic terrorists and leaders.
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
if the invocation of god's mandate of Holy War awas used against Noriega, then I apologize on behalf of all Americans to you Nadia. But if it wasn't, then there is no similariies to the Holy War interpretation of Jihad by the islamic terrorists and leaders.
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As much as you are annoyed by the use of word "jihad" we are annoyed by the false and misleading words like "liberation". Lets renounce any wrongs done by anyone, shall we?
To equate the responsibilites and actions of the world's most powerful nation with the those of a group of religous zealouts or even 3rd world dictators is illogical. One is responsible for the security, stability and prosperity of the whole world. The other is a group of ignorant and uneducated killers who are devastated that their antiquated idealogy has been relegated to the trash heap of history. What makes it "annoying" is that the invocation of God is used to justify their knee jerk reactions and is excused by supporters on this board by comparing it to the foreign policy of the world's first and preeminent democracy.
Changez, Matsui's belief arises from the fact that others (translation barbarians who believe in religion or anyone who thinks the US does not have an abolsute right to do whatever it wants) have to change their beliefs but Islamophobes, secular extremists do not. Why? Because they have the big guns. It's an arrogance of power, which corrupts their thinking. Still nobody's top dog forever.
Seminole, what you are saying as "illogical" is very logical for many. What US/UK coalition has done is simple invasion, not just in Iraq but in past many times. For what? for its own interests and not for "global prosperity". If North America is "global" for you then there certainly is something to be fixed.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
Thanks Different for supporting me.
Do not worry about my knowledge of Holy Quran!
I cannot understand how people can go eccentric in bulk after reading such a nice book.
Mr Zakk, do not you understand that you are fighting for the sake of fighting.
Let us not go in very far history of Islam…as you contradict all facts habitually.
Let us study what has happened in recent 40-50 years of Islam! Iran, Iraq, Libya or any other Muslim populated area…Very sorry to say that in all these areas Muslims are killed by Muslims and for that killings, your ‘Holy Jihad’ was frequently exploited.
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You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you "will never agree if someone says that Quran preaches violence." ** and when I asked you whether "you have ever read the Quran and tried to understand its "Preachings"?", you respond by saying **"Do not worry about my knowledge of Holy Quran!
I cannot understand how people can go eccentric in bulk after reading such a nice book."
Here are a few verses from the Holy Quran, and then you be a judge on who is actually "going eccentric in bulk after reading such a nice book."
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
2:178 O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
2:190 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
2:193 And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
2:194 The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
2:216 Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
2:217 They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
4:74 Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
4:75 And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
4:76 Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
22:39 Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
22:40 Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.
47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Matsui: *
**if the invocation of god's mandate of Holy War awas used against Noriega, then I apologize on behalf of all Americans to you Nadia. But if it wasn't, then there is no similariies to the Holy War interpretation of Jihad by the islamic terrorists and leaders.
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*
Matsan, My point to IceLander007 was directed towards his argument that it's only Muslims who are going around killing individuals.
Waisay - a question. Is slaughter better if not carried out in the name of God ? This reminds me of a quote by Gandhi - What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?
Nadia, you are disappointing us.
You mean to say that there was a Hiroshima and hence Muslim can declare Jihad against each other.
‘Let us study what has happened in recent 40-50 years of Islam! Iran, Iraq, Libya or any other Muslim populated area…Very sorry to say that in all these areas Muslims are killed by Muslims and for that killings, your ‘Holy Jihad’ was frequently exploited.’
Why Jihad is so flexible?
Who’s “us”?
>>You mean to say that there was a Hiroshima and hence Muslim can declare Jihad against each other.<<
i never stated that.
>>Why Jihad is so flexible?<<
The same reason that cultures are extremely diverse. Interpretations vary from culture to culture.