Reasons of Forced Rape of Women

yeh lo nai kahani.

If anyone wants to talk about Incest in Pakistan then I can give you some info on that as well but please don't just walk in without reading what has been going on and say something which I had been begging not to to confuse here.

Who is denying that it rape is not happened by the mullah's but on the basis of that would you generalise that every single maulana is bad. I would say that's not fair.

If it continued like this, I would just shut up on this topic as I am tired of repetition.

[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
** Are you then saying that women should take responsibility for their actions while men need not do the same?

If a woman is dressed provocatively, does that make it okay for the man to rape her? Does her behaviour justify his?

I don't think so. Though I agree that there are different classes of men, some that have control over their actions and many that don't, I still think that the responsibility does not lie solely on the woman.

And for khan_sahib,

I'm anxious to read your reply to Anchal's comments.

**
[/quote]

I posted three posts in a row, and in the last one I address what you are saying. Read it.

I dont say that raping provacative clothet women is ok. Where did you get that ? Reasons for rape were asked. I gave them as I see them. Of course there are a lot of reasaons, but I would assert that if women dressed modestly, which in turn would decrease the sex-fixation in todays society dramatically, the frequency of rape occuring would also decrease dramatically. So one thing leads to another. There are a lot of narrations ascribed to the Prophet(PBUH) as well where he curses women showing of their beauty in public. Why you think ??

I explicitly said in my third post that I was merely trying to show that women ALSO have to take some responsibility.

Once we this dressing modestly matter is applied in the society, then we can really find a solution for those mentally ill ppl that still commit such abhorrent sins.

It is so sad to see that you have the same concept of freedom that the west has.


~Survival of the smartest~

the only repition happening here khan sahib is with you.
you're not even reading these posts with an open mind which is why all these ideas (of yours, leading to responses aimed at you) are flying here and there.

i swear this thread is going nowhere. the discussion is going nowhere. which is so sad cuz the topic was a fairly touchy , important subject in the first place where awareness (and a friggin open mind) would've been so affective benefitting the whole issue at large. but nope. result is,not even close.

[This message has been edited by aphrodite (edited June 21, 2001).]

AL..KOHOLIC

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/pagal.gif

&
Muhatarma Aanchal,

I ll be breif.What koran says has science & bilogically feasible .

I insist woman can & do offer sex ON demand ,as million sex worker through out world do

But for a man to have sex ,he has to be aroused & even if they wanted as in Gigolo or male prostitute they have limit to how many intercourse he can undergo.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif

I am speaking as a scientist,you can have your feminist equal rights all you want ,that doesnt affect people who live not by Bettey freidan & Gloria steinum Razi allahu annho !!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nook.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nah.gif


Woh afsaana jise anjaam tak, laana na ho mumkin
Use ek KHoobsoorat moR dekar, chhoRna achha

Is it just me or khan sahib really does not want to discuss here anything except have a grown up post in the Corner Room

khan Sahib lemme be the first one to congratulate you on your lack of knowledge

[quote]

'Pakistan or Pakistanis dont have access to pornographic material '
[/quote]

Unlike Middle East where such sites are banned

Pakistanis have full acces to Adult sites on the net
Forget internet, at any vdo store across the country Blue Movies are readily available
Forget vdo stores, ever seen a Pushto Movie?

So this fantasy of yours that in pakistan pornography doesnt exist or is less is WRONG

It exists along with other such things
the only difference is all Of it happens and is kept under the covers

[This message has been edited by Anchal (edited June 21, 2001).]

Anchal, read above and then say whatever you want to say coz I feel like that you are under the influence of “brandy” Mem sahib was referring to in another thread.

So are we now suggesting that affluence is a cause of rape?

I'm totally lost in this thread.......

Me as well. It might start to make more sense if the discussion was restricted to the original qustion.

Could you please use your sources and ask the moderators to delete the posts which are totally unrelated to my first question. Afterall, she has got some experience in doing so from Family Forum. Please be fair.

alrite Khan sahib lemme give you another chance to make sense

What exactly is your question here?

khan_sahib,

In all fairness I don't think it's appropriate to delete any of the posts since nobody seems to know what is being discussed. In a way, all the posts are "right".

As Anchal as suggested, why don't you try posing your question again. And if you don't mind me suggesting this, try doing so without formulating long paragraphs.

State your theory in a simple sentence. Keep it as straight-forward as possible.....kinda like the summary that I posted earlier.

Thanks.

let me try to bring to your attention what the topic is about.

Reasons why rape occur.

On of the reason as Khan_sahib says is the way women dress. Keeping that post of psychology student in mind, there is an obvious connection between immodest clothing and the abhorrent crime of rape. This ONE of the reasons, a major reason. Why dont neither of you women actually say that "yes we women should take some responsibility too".


~Survival of the smartest~

Muzna Baji, thanks for explaining what Anchal is on about ;-) I will provide a summary later. Here is a shaer which might make give a hint what I was on about.

sub mujhi say kehtay heiN kar neechi nazar apni
koi unsay nahiN kehta na niklo yooN ayaaN ho kar

I think some of what is being debated is based on myths about rape and sexual assault:
*
Myth 1: The viewing of pornography leads to increased sexual assaults and rape.
*
There is little/no evidence that conclusively links the viewing of pornography to rape. Below is evidence, I can provide references if you would like:

  1. ** United States **: It was shown that, as far as could be determined by a
    Commission appointed by U. S. President Lyndon B. Johnson (Pornography,
    1970), ** no such relationship of pornography leading to rape or sexual
    assault could be demonstrated as applicable for adults or juveniles ** . Subsequent nation-wide studies in the United States also seemed to find no strong evidence that rape rates were associated with the availability of pornographic magazines (Baron and Straus, 1987) or adult theatres in a community (Scott and Schwalm, 1988; Winick & Evans, 1996).
  2. ** Britain ** : In Britain, the British (Williams) Committee on Obscenity and Film Censorship, in 1979 reported (Home Office, 1979): ** “From everything we know of social attitudes, and have learnt in the course of our enquires, our belief can only be that the role of pornography in influencing the state of society is a minor one ** . To think anything else . . . is to get the problem of pornography out of proportion (p. 95).”
  3. ** Canada ** : A review report by McKay and Dolff (1984) for the Department of Justice of Canada essentially says similarly: ** “There is no systematic research evidence available which suggests a causal relationship between pornography and the morality of Canadian society . . . [and none] which suggests that increases in specific forms of deviant behavior, reflected in crime trend statistics (e.g., rape) are causally related to pornography.” **
  4. ** Denmark, West Germany and Sweden ** : For these countries, Kutchinsky (1985a, 1991) showed that ** as the amount of pornography increasingly became available, the rate of rapes in these countries either decreased or remained relatively level ** .

Myth 2: Women who dress less modestly are more likely to be raped.
*
There is little correlation between ones physical dress/attractiveness and the likelihood of becoming a victim of rape. ** Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control ** . Rapists who pry on children, rape for the same reason that they rape adults. Children do not dress scantily – yet they are still raped. Women are raped for the same reasons – its about power and control not sex. Even in Iran, where women dress in full hijab, there are cases of rape.

To give you another example, look at the rape of women with disabilities. The figures for these women are highest, one Canadian study indicates that ** 83% of women with disabilities will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime . Its not because of the way they are dressed ** . In fact to believe that a woman “deserves” to be raped because of the way she is dressed is like saying a wealthy-looking man “deserves” to be robbed. No matter how a woman is dressed, she should not be violated.
*
Myth 3: Rapists are social outcasts and do not come from normal walks of life.
*
Men who sexually assault are not mentally ill or sexually starved. ** Studies on the profiles of rapists reveal that they are “ordinary” and “normal” men who sexually assault women in order to assert power and control over them. **

Men who commit sexual assault ** come from every economic, ethnic, racial, age and social group **. Men who commit sexual assault can be the doctors, teachers, employers, co-workers, lawyers, husbands, or relatives of the women they assault.

** Women face the greatest risk of sexual assault from men they know, not strangers ** . In Canada, of the women who are sexually assaulted, most (69%) are sexually assaulted by men known to them dates, boyfriends, marital partners, friends, family members or neighbours. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) in the US, a woman is twice as likely to be attacked by a stranger than by someone she knows. However, sexual assault by an acquaintance is a largely unreported occurrence.
*
Myth 4: Women who leave the house and frequent public places are more likely to be raped.
*
The fact is that ** rape occurs in a variety of places and situations during any hour of the day or night. The majority of rape occur in or near a victim’s home **, and there are incidences of rape in offices, schools, and other work locations.

In Canada, most sexual assaults (60%) occur in a private home and the largest percentage of these (38%) occur in the victim’s home. The idea that most sexual assaults fit the ‘stranger-in-a-dark-alley’ stereotype can lead to a false sense of security.
*
Myth 5: Sexual Assaults are widely reported in both the western world and in Pakistan.
*
According to Statistics Canada, ** only 6% of all sexual assaults are reported to police ** . Only 1% of women who have been sexually assaulted by an acquaintance report the incident to police. I’m sure reporting in Pakistan is similar.

Achtung

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

SEX WARS …

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Muzna, what is your point, are you trying to defend women and suggest that they have nothing to do with rape in todays world.

Can u for even an inch of closeness describe why our religion is so strict concerning hijaab and privacy of women. If u can, then u’ll be spelling out the exact point khan_shahib has been trying to make.

In the west you dont need to rape a girl unless u have some vendetta or psychological problem, cause 85% of the females here are already sluts.

Women with pride and privacy are the ones who get raped not sluts. People in Pakistan have ready access to porno material from the west but ofcourse dont have westerm women in the country, so naturally who gets victimized our own women. After all a woman is woman anywhere in the world.

Statistics show that majority of rape victims are related to the rapist in some way. Why is the majority of women raped young and tender, because those are who feel good. Rape has many faces, it could also be a war crime, but the bottomline is it all starts because women started exposing and now their status is a use and play sex object in the society. I’m not saying ur to blame, u definitely must be a nice woman but dont say woman are not to blame.

I dont say that men are innocent either but it takes some input to pervert a guy, someone with family problems wont start go raping women, even psycho’s who rape have had some sexual disorientation in their past. And their rape is not with intention of having sex but rather torturing their victim.


Its our Wits that make us MEN … ‘Braveheart’

are we going to make any conclusions?

my pennies towards the topic:

DEVIL is everywhere, whether society is conservative or open.
In our society, which is conservative, there is also a lot of OPPRESSION. The DEVIL MAN rapes a woman and she has to hide it for the sake of FAMILY's pride, izzat etc, or she is forced to hide it by other reasons. Yes, sadly our society is not free of RAPISTS.

If we see ahadith, there are words that a man and woman should not meet in person until there is someone else with them... otherwise there is satan as third person....... what is importance of this hadith? has anyone looked at it at all? this hadith doesn't say that they can meet in person if they are FULLY DRESSED, .... there is no talk of DRESSING here.

we started to argue about dressing of women, rights of people etc etc. whether a woman is dressed up properly or not, SATAN has to play its role, right?
yes, it is very easy to TURN ON/EXCITE opposite sex by flashing the sexy parts (partly, completely or otherways to seduce) and men will get excited by look of women flesh (almost any body part). but that will make up SOME % of rape incidents. and there are incidents like some sicko will rape kids, patients, old ladies etc.

one main reason is very common, RAPIST targets weaker objects only. there are cases where a woman resisted and forced the rapist-wanna-be to run away. and I personally think that all girls/women should learn self-defence.

it all boils down to self control. everyone should control his/her desire of sex and not look at other human beings as objects.


We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited June 22, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
**Here is a shaer which might make give a hint what I was on about.

sub mujhi say kehtay heiN kar neechi nazar apni
koi unsay nahiN kehta na niklo yooN ayaaN ho kar
**
[/quote]

Very nice shair khan_sahib.....however, philosophy and romanticism does not always hold true in reality....

In answer to anyone and everyone that may be asking why women are not asked to take some responsibility for the way they dress....

  • There are many, many references around to prove that dressing provocatively has little to no bearing or relation to the frequency of rape.

  • The attire of a woman is no justification for a man to take advantage of her. "She made me do it", or "She was asking for it", should never be accepted as a defense in rape cases.

For LooksCanKill,

I have never stated that women have nothing to do with rape in today's world. I have simply stated that the way they dress has nothing to do with it.

My knowledge of Islam and why hijaab is appreciated is not in question here. But if you wish to go down that road, then please answer for me why rape is rampant in regions where Islam is widespread and imposed as the official faith. And please don't suggest that "wester women" of whom "85%....are already sluts" or pornographic materials infiltrate that society and are the reason. We've already got enough evidence from reliable sources to show that this argument holds no water.

"Women with pride and privacy are the ones who get raped not sluts. "

Wrong. How do you explain rape of prostitutes? That is, if you consider prostitutes "sluts".

*"but it takes some input to pervert a guy,"
*

Wrong again. Look up the term and you will find that many rapists have genetic and psychological disorders for which no source can be found or traced.

On a side note for all:

  • The way a woman dresses, modestly or immodestly is a reflection of her personality. It should not be interpretted as anything more than that.

Let me pose this question: If a gorgeous, shapely woman were to be found completely nude in a public place, would it be okay to rape her?

[quote]

In the west you dont need to rape a girl unless u have some vendetta or psychological problem, cause 85% of the females here are already sluts.

I dont say that men are innocent either but it takes some input to pervert a guy, someone with family problems wont start go raping women, even psycho's who rape have had some sexual disorientation in their past. And their rape is not with intention of having sex but rather torturing their victim.

**
[/quote]

Actually it isn't just psycho's who rape, its your average guy. Profiles of rapists show that most lead fairly normal lives, many have wives, girlfriends, kids even. And you should ** stop blaming the victim ** . Women are raped regardless of how they dress, regardless of their religious beliefs. And men rape regardless of if they watch porn or if they don't.

Hypothetically, if you were a woman standing naked in front of a group of men - it wouldn't be an invitation for them to rape you, or even touch you.

Achtung

Well than tell me if u have an answer what triggers rape. And disprove that dressing is not a cause for rape.

I agree with all your points but do not discredit as dressing not being a vital factor as well of this vice.

Just as their as statistics showing women who got raped not because of dressing the same can be proved as for the opposite.


Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'

Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
*Well than tell me if u have an answer what triggers rape. And disprove that dressing is not a cause for rape.
*

Are you suggesting that since you cannot find any other answers, you think it's fair to blame the women? (Even though your premise is wrong because there are several other answers for why rape occurs...)

How about laying some responsibility on men for their lack of self control? That reason certainly carries more weight than the one you want to use.....

I agree with all your points but do not discredit as dressing not being a vital factor as well of this vice.

I have to insist that dressing is not a vital factor. There are enough studies and case histories around to support my stance. What statistics can you bring forward to support yours'?

Just as their as statistics showing women who got raped not because of dressing the same can be proved as for the opposite.

Be my guest. Prove it.

Btw, have you read the comments posted by Achtung?

[This message has been edited by Muzna (edited June 22, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
*Originally posted by LooksCanKill:
**Well than tell me if u have an answer what triggers rape. And disprove that dressing is not a cause for rape.
*

Are you suggesting that since you cannot find any other answers, you think it's fair to blame the women? (Even though your premise is wrong because there are several other answers for why rape occurs...)

How about laying some responsibility on men for their lack of self control? That reason certainly carries more weight than the one you want to use.....

I agree with all your points but do not discredit as dressing not being a vital factor as well of this vice.

I have to insist that dressing is not a vital factor. There are enough studies and case histories around to support my stance. What statistics can you bring forward to support yours'?

Just as their as statistics showing women who got raped not because of dressing the same can be proved as for the opposite.

Be my guest. Prove it.

Btw, have you read the comments posted by Achtung?

[This message has been edited by Muzna (edited June 22, 2001).]**
[/quote]

So Muzna, be clear r u saying that dressing will not cause a rape at all?


Its our Wits that make us MEN .... 'Braveheart'