RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

anjjan · June 23, 2006, 1:45am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

///\ This is the most misguiding statement used by Muslim without analyzing the ground realities.

The fact is that Islam could find grounds only in countries and places where people were living below civilized standards.

And let me know if Islam helped them to come out of dark ages…..re Afghanistan, central Asia, Africa, and many Arab countries!
Will Muslims accept it as a failure?
Can you analyze why Islam suited the rulers in the above mentioned countries?

The fact is that the Hindu or Indian subcontinent is the first civilization which gave a concrete halt to the expansion of Islam.

///\ This way one can explain the sanctity of any religion, not particularly Islam. Some quotes in Hindu religion, Puran etc confirm untouchablity, and some totally disregard that.
But Hindus are not very smart in misguiding the non-Hindus on behalf of contexts and interpretations.

yo_wasim · June 23, 2006, 6:22am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

Do you really think, now talk about realities, civilized you mentioned that right.
North America fastest Muslim growing nation, yes it is un civilized unfortunately Muslim again found ground.
Europe is it uncivilized God alone knows you have to tell me.

Spain Muslims had conquered Spain for 800 years you call it uncivilized.
Anjann common yaar common get me some authentic stuff.
You tell me that Muslim found ground, by the way which Muslim army went to Indonesia get the history i challenge you . It is the most populated Muslim country in the world.
Which Muslim army went to East Africa.
Get the reality we dont force anyone to Islam. Thats what the verse says.

hareem01 · June 23, 2006, 8:02am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

ssingh:

How can this be?..there are many muslims who say that there is no compulsion in islam and even quote verses from quran for that. But this verse quotes or gives a very different meaning. Allah is so desperate ! and whatever definition of muslim which yo_wasim gave also falls apart with this verse. “there is no compulsion in islam”…this also falls apart pretty much.

I got one this one from some where else…I have my own defintion of the word “submission” and i think it is right

YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html

If this so true then people like mother teresa, Buddha and many many others who have done so good to others, have they lost all spiritual good?..or a muslim who rapes, murders, kills and dies as a muslim etc, he got all spiritual good?..seems to be beyond every logic.

OR the word ‘religion’ has been incorporated at a later stage by muslims to meet their own ends…

anyways…I think yours is the first religion I have come across that specifically talks about ‘religion’. I dont know about bible, torah or others. I have not come across in ours.

"submission to Islam "means (there is no God but Allah and Muhammad [saw] is the last Messenger and Slave of Allah).
Also The people who do rightous deeds but don’t believe in one God…will not enter Paradise.But anyone with the little bit Iman{believe} will enter the Paradise…If one rapes,or murders and die without repentance(taubah)…he’ll be accountable for his actions.people will enter paradise only by the mercy of Allah…also we’ll be accountable for our actions…for example if we know in our heart that there is only one God and we say with our mouths but we worship idols or money…or if a muslim He knows and says with his mouth that there is only One God but he rapes,murders,commit other crimes then his actions are different to that he says..he’ll be accountable for His actions.

yo_wasim · June 23, 2006, 8:26am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

Since the total submission of one’s will to God represents the essence of worship, the basic message of God’s divine religion, Islam, is the worship of God alone. It also requires the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than God. Since everything other than God, the creator of all the things, is God’s creation, it may be said that Islam, in essence, calls man away from worship of creation and invites him to worship only his Creator.

He is the only one deserving of man’s worship, because it is only by His will that prayers are answered.

Tell me dont think blindly any one outthere here I am making a very logical statement, is it wrong we call you only to the creator.
Mr Friends, Arabic, Allaah means God, English means God, Khuda in urdu is God, Bhagwan in Hindi means God.
But we are calling you to worship the creator thats God.

anjjan · June 23, 2006, 8:40am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

If you try to find out a sound answer to this question….you will find answer to all of your other questions. (The question you smartly decided to ignore///.)

**And let me know if Islam helped them to come out of dark ages…..re Afghanistan, central Asia, Africa, and many Arab countries!
Will Muslims accept it as a failure?
Can you analyze why Islam suited the rulers in the above mentioned countries? **

I can tell you that when the Prophet was trying to create a system for Arabs…..the first book on Economy was already written in India 1000 years before his invention of Islam.
Any idea who was Chanaykkya???
Ever heard of Nalanda University??? This is called civilization.

And may be you want to say that Europe was uncivilized in 7th century, but Islam did not go there. Friend, you must understand the economic growth and climatic conditions.
What Arab traders or invaders could find in 7th, 8th or 10th century Europe???

I can challenge that in all your great (one-sided) studies, you lack a very simple thing….that is ‘logic’.

Are you sure that a Spanish does not look at Islam the same way as a Hindu does. But for that again you need some ‘logics’.

yo_wasim · June 23, 2006, 9:45am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

anjjan:

If you try to find out a sound answer to this question….you will find answer to all of your other questions. (The question you smartly decided to ignore\/\/\/.)

And let me know if Islam helped them to come out of dark ages…..re Afghanistan, central Asia, Africa, and many Arab countries! ** **Will Muslims accept it as a failure? *Can you analyze why Islam suited the rulers in the above mentioned countries? *

I can tell you that when the Prophet was trying to create a system for Arabs…..the first book on Economy was already written in India 1000 years before his invention of Islam. Any idea who was Chanaykkya??? Ever heard of Nalanda University??? This is called civilization.

And may be you want to say that Europe was uncivilized in 7th century, but Islam did not go there. Friend, you must understand the economic growth and climatic conditions. What Arab traders or invaders could find in 7th, 8th or 10th century Europe???

I can challenge that in all your great (one-sided) studies, you lack a very simple thing….that is ‘logic’.

Are you sure that a Spanish does not look at Islam the same way as a Hindu does. But for that again you need some 'logics'.

I do lack logic but you are contradictory. No doubt, you told me Islam found ground in uncivilized countries.

But what about Europe which is civilized now,I am talking about present time. You are completely of topic.
You say 1000 years back India was civilized right then how come Islam found groun in India if it was civilized. Interesting. Chanakya and Nalanda University.
Brother religion is got to do nothing with dark ages. Tell me is there any link between countries and dark ages. Look at the history and again my one sided Studies whre the Profs of Boston, Harvard comment that from 8th century to 16th century when Europe was going through the dark ages. Islam had the best of its times. If this is the case why Islam did not find a ground in Europe though it was uncivilized. I am extremely sorry your only sticking on to India we talk Globally and look at the things rationally and unlike we dont fall into a trap of mirage. Created by the westerners.

anjjan · June 23, 2006, 10:54am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

The topic is RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION? But as usual they are here to tell us that Islam is the best religion.
Sometimes I feel that in fact they are bound to convince themselves day and night that Islam is the best religon..........I can understand their complexes.

Personally I have no objection if Islam is the best religion, but why to dump it in every thread?

yo_wasim · June 23, 2006, 11:10am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

My dear friend I am happy you realized the topic, late but its ok.
Go look at the complete forum and tell me who deviated. Good you realised if you would have stuck to the topic it would be fine. Problem with you is if we dont answer, you feel you are one smart chap out there that we cannot answer. So we have no other option rather to answer your questions.
I hope you realize this. Be a professional if thats the case.

vir.dharm · June 25, 2006, 11:24am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

truepakistani:

I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH MY HINDU FRIENDS WHETHER THEY BELIEVE IT TO BE EVEN A REMOTE POSSIBILITY THAT THESE BOOKS ARE NOT REALITY-BASED BUT JUST FICTION WITH COLORFUL CHARACTERS. MOST OF THE WESTERN HISTORIANS BELEIVE THIS . EVEN IN INDIA IN THE HISTORY BOOKS IT IS WRITTEN THAT RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA WERE COMPOSED IN SOME PARTICULAR ERA . NEITHER IS IT MENTIONED THAT THESE EVENTS ACTUALLY HAPPENED NOR IS THE DATE MENTIONED . MOST PEOPLE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD DON'T BELIEVE ALL THAT IS WRITTEN BUT INDIANS HAVE A HARD TIME FACING THIS TRUTH . THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE AN OPEN DISCUSSION. WE ALSO KNOW THE AUTHORS OF THESE EPIC TALES . ITS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THESE HISTORIC BOOKS WERE THE EQVIVALENT OF "HARRY PORTER " OF THEIR TIME . NO ARCHEALOGICAL EVIDENCE HAS EVER BEEN FOUND . THE BATTLE OF KURUKSHETRA WHICH SUPPOSEDLY KILLED MILLIONS SHOULD HAVE LEFT ATLEAST SOME EVIDENCE . NOR DO THE CHARACTORS MENTIONED IN THESE BOOKS MAKE ANY SENSE . THERE IS THIS VILLIAN RAVANA WITH 10 HEADS .HOW CAN A PERSON WITH A SINGLE NECK HAVE 10 HEADS . NOWADAYS MANY HINDUS HAVE STARTED DEFENDING THAT BY SAYING THAT HE HAD WISDOM OF 10 PERSONS! BUT IN THE BOOK ITS WRITTEN THAT HE ACTUALLY , PHYSICALLY HAD 10 HEADS. THEN THERE IS THIS CHARACTER CALLED HANUMAN WHO IS A MONKEY BUT CAN TALK . ALONG WITH HIM THERE IS AN WHOLE ARMY OF MONKEYS WHO CAN TALK (VANAR SENA).THE HINDUS SHOULD REALISE THAT THERE IS ONLY 1 SPECIES THAT CAN TALK & THAT'S HUMANS. IF THESE HALF-MONKEY HALF-HUMAN SPECIES EXSISTED THEN WHERE IS IT NOW?????? NO EVIDENCE HAS BEEN FOUND. THERE R MANY OTHER POINTS THAT COME IN MIND BUT ITS SUFFICIENT TO SAY THAT HINDUS ARE LIKE THAT AMERICAN KID WHO EVEN AFTER GROWING UP KEEPS ON BELIEVING IN THE EXSISTENCE OF SANTA CLAUS!!!

Dear Brother,
Salam
I am very happy to see ,that in pakistan you think about Hindu,s book .
In all Hindu Dharm book you find many avtar or many kind of god,s and human like Hanuman Ravana and Bali all.

Hanuman ji is a simbal of Divoti ,son of Air , Power , Brain , Helth and a good
friend. Hanuman ji is not a Human Body this is a sembal only for all that kind of good things.

So again i say all Hindu Davi and Davta are simbal only .

Thanks,

Dharmvir Singh

hareem01 · June 25, 2006, 2:08pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

Simbal???

rahul_r · June 25, 2006, 8:31pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

I think he means symbol

Mograkali · June 25, 2006, 9:16pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

A muslim belives in the literal translation of the Quran. Hindus do not believe in the literal translation of any book. They are all philosophical treatises as well as stories based on fact as well as imagination. Hindus are free to belive in them according to thier own individual leanings.

I understand that it is hard for a muslim to even comprehend such freedom of imterpretation since it is alien to the islamic philosophy where everything written is a literal translation of specific events.

Not knocking either philosophy but discussion of this is quite useless.

Therefore it is quite pointless to discuss with someone with a closed mind exactly what the Mahabharat or Ramayan or Vedas or whatever means to the average Hindu. I will be happy to discuss the finer points of Hindu epics with those who are willing to put aside thier own stated position on the "truth" and listen with an open mind.

Abhiman · June 26, 2006, 4:21am

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

Well now Hindus believe in the literal translations of all their sacred books.

[quote]
Therefore it is quite pointless to discuss with someone with a closed mind exactly what the Mahabharat or Ramayan or Vedas or whatever means to the average Hindu. I will be happy to discuss the finer points of Hindu epics with those who are willing to put aside thier own stated position on the "truth" and listen with an open mind.
[/quote]

Well like how I have pointed out earlier in this thread, Reality depiction shows and many news reports have shown a boy and men with 13 inch long tails. That was due to a congenital defect. And such a phenomenon has been observed only in India. So Hanuman indeed had a tail, and was thus refered to as a vanar or a monkey-person not just a monkey.

Regarding Ravana's 10 heads, I have pointed out earlier that Valmiki Ramyana which is the original Ramayana depics Ravana as having 10 knowledge heads. The Tulsi Ramayana (written in lay-man's tongue many centuries later) writes that Ravana has 10 physical heads.
The TV serial of Ramayana was based on the latter Tulsi Ramayan, and hence shows Ravan with 10 physical heads.

About the strait that joins India and Sri-Lanka, NASA only said that a long time back, it must have been more congenial and not as defragmented as today. The vanara sena must have just filled in some gaps in that strait. Anyway, the Ramayana's description is quite accurate in that sense.

About Mahabharata, it mentions Gandhara in the far west from where Shakuni came. Historians are certain that Gandhara is present-day's Kandahar.
Also, the city of New Delhi was called Indraprastha or Hastinapur before Muslim invaders renamed it as Dilli. New Delhi is refered by these names in Mahabharat.

It also mentions Kurukshetra, an area present to this day. So the Mahabharat is also in all likelihood an actual event similar to the Ramayana.

Mograkali · June 26, 2006, 1:11pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

They do? I did not get THAT memo.

The only memo I got was that as a hindu I was free to interpret the philosophy/stories/fact/mythology according to my own thinking, analysis and beliefs. I am comfortable with that freedom. Please do not speak for all Hindus.

infiniti · June 29, 2006, 1:28pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

:D gally (way) to go.

tommygun · July 3, 2006, 6:19pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

To truepakistani

All about ramamyan and mahabharat
we may have known the timeline and exact date only if u muslims had not burnt down the great universities of Taxila and Varanasi

And by the way could u explain them JINN things to me? I dont see any around my house... ooh, i know they are invisible yup... more science from the great quran...

kumar12345 · January 9, 2007, 6:11pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

well the timeline mentioned in scriptures is this

Duration of Kali-yuga *=
432,000 (human years)=
Duration of Dvapara-yuga 2*
Duration of Treta-yuga 3*
Duration of Satya-yuga (4*

it is mentioned in holy Bhagwat Puran that After lord Krishna Left this world his capital was submerged in water.. dwarka... and in 80's various excavations have been revealed under sea treating it to be true......

kumar12345 · January 9, 2007, 6:27pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

here's news about recent excavations
ASI-Navy team up to dig into Dwarka’s past
Express News Service
Posted online: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 at 0000 hrs Print Email

RAJKOT, JANUARY 2 : It has long beckoned pilgrims and researchers alike, and is believed to have been a thriving port once. Now, to bring submerged Dwarka’s past to the surface, the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) and an Indian Navy team are planning to not only go down into the ocean’s deeps, but also dig along the shore and land. The excavation operations, which were launched at a site opposite Dwarkadheesh Temple on Monday, are the first on such magnitude undertaken by the ASI at the site.

‘’This is a significant project as this will be the first time that the ASI will go in for land, shore and undersea operations here. So far, the National Institute of Oceanography (Goa) has been carrying out extensive research into Dwarka’s history, but it has limited itself to undersea excavations,’’ said Alok Tripathi, ASI superintendent (underwater archaelogical wing). Considered one of the four dhams by Hindus, Dwarka is mythologically held to be the golden city founded by Lord Krishna which was subsequently submerged under the sea. It has also been of interest from the research point of view. Marine archaeological explorations off Dwarka by the NIO have thrown up a large number of randomly scattered stone structures. Semicircular, rectangular or square in shape, the structures are found at depths ranging inter-tidal zone to 6 m. A number of stone anchors have also been unearthed, which suggest that Dwarka was once a busy port. A comparative study with surrounding sites indicates that the structures date back to somewhere between the historical and the late medieval periods.

‘’We have begun excavations in a small area, measuring 5x5 opposite Dwarkadheesh temple. This was the only open site available adjacent to the main temple. The excavations near Dwarkadheesh will be followed by similar operations at Gomti Ghat and along the sea shore. Undersea excavation, to be undertaken by the team from Indian Navy, will begin on January 7,’’ said Tripathi. ‘’The site earmarked for undersea excavation is some 500 km from the shore.

The excavation will be conducted at a depth of 3-15 m. This will be a time-consuming process. Initial results will dictate how much time will be requires for conclusive research,’’ he added. ‘’The ASI plans to take up research with a different perspective, while keeping in mind earlier findings. Post-excavation, we will involve a range of experts to analyse the findings of our 20-member team,’’ said Tripathi.

kumar12345 · January 9, 2007, 6:30pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

at this site u will get some photos of things got under sea
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Dwaraka.htm

this can help too..

so we cannot say that mahabharta and ramayan false tales only.

DSPathania · January 9, 2007, 7:28pm

Re: RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA :FICTION?

Right said Kumar. This site is a treasure trove of information about the history of this sub-continent. Every claim is supported by facts.