Roman
substituting?
where is substituting?
I just see it to be correcting..
I would like to get your views on the name Mehmet .. the turkish substitue for Muhammad?
From where you stand.. i think you have no problems with having Prophet Mehmet instead of Prophet Muhammad?
I personally would like Turks to correct their pronounciation.. just the same way I would like all Pakis to pronounce Ramada'n the way it is supposed to be.
blackzero,
Subtituting in the sense that I have actually HEARD people pronouncing it Ramadan (with a "D", not a "Z" sound) in talking.
If you write the word Ramadan instead of Ramazan and when saying it actually use the "Z" sound, taking into account the Urdu transformation of the sound then I personally don't see any problem with that. I'll continue to write it Ramazan and people can continue to write it Ramadan as long as "Z" is revered. It's a free world.
Now coming back to Mohammad. I don't even have a problem if they start calling Allah, Shiva.
just the same way I would like all Pakis to pronounce Ramada'n the way it is supposed to be.
And let me guess, that pronounciation will be with the "D" sound? Majority of the languages in the world have words driven from other languages. Urdu is no exception. It got words driven from languages all over the world. This is due to various geographic, cultural, and linguistic reasons which is totally a natural social phenomenon.
My point has been that once you have a word driven from other language and now is part of your vernacular then be proud of it and use it without any convoluted apprehension that it's hurting any sort of sense of unity. These sort of linguistic derivations or variations are undeniable and inevitable and not everything that we do differently because of our heritage or culture hurts any sort of unity or seperates us from some sort of Islamic Common Wealth of linguistic-ism.
RomanJi: You are bringing a tear to my eye…so poetic…so all worldly…so buddhist. :k:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Roman: *
Now coming back to Mohammad. I don't even have a problem if they start calling Allah, Shiva.
[/QUOTE]
sure,,, so will you do the slaughter of the cows at Eid al Adha to Shiva?
cuz for you it doesn't make a difference.
blackzero bhaiya,
I'm smell a little jhali bhuni there. Now, you have just used Eid-ul-zaha, cow, and Shiva in one sentence. You're right, it doesn't make any difference to me and I don't give a gaayay's gobher-full butt. But question is, how much gobher-ness won't make any difference to you if I use the same nouns in a sentence - differently?
hmm..
confusion..
it seems from you posts that you are the one who is jala bhuna..
i am just trying to understand the fundamental reason for your inferiority complex..
and you illogical adamant stance that all pakistanis must pronounce ramada'n as ramzaan..
now ramzaan.. i know a ramzaan khan .. he is a security guard at a apartment complez in pak.. he is a nice fella.. though a bit taken by boys..
blackzero, I'm sorry. Did I confuse you? I wish I could remedy this state of confusion you're suffering from in similar ways that you don't have confusion about Ramazaan Khan, his being a security gaurd, nice fella, and into boys.
here we go again..
i see a deep rooted frusration that no one takes you seriously.. so you have to make yourself seem self important by pickin on minutia and trying to make a case out of them.
and interestingly..
while you claim that you have no problem ppl calling Muhammad as Mehmet and Allah as Shiva.. you take is a personal affront when people pronounce the ninth month of the Islamic Calender as Ramda'n rather than Ramzaan.
you can't even be consistent in you stance..
nahi bhaee, yay boht mommy daddy type come back thee. Aap ko usual psycho-analysis kee bajayay thora sa crude hona paRay ga.
Aap kee Eid-ul-"daha", cow, aur Shiva and then Ramzaan khan biodata wali jhali bhuni has been duly noted. Aap ab danishwarana psycho-analysis kay peechay mat chhupeiN.
PS-
I don't give myself half as much importance as people do when they try to put me on the spot by asking Mohmmad vs Mahmet questions.
ramadan, ramzan, november..
what does it matter..
we keep forgetting the spirit of the act.. and get bogged down on small things.
Black zero and prince of dhump in the same topic. Hmmm.
I am now waiting for X-2 to interject and finish the topic.
Bye the way, I agree with Roman. We do not call Raza, Radha, neither do we say that Roman aur Fraudia behaTH kar rahey hain. Say (3 nuktoN wali) in Arabic is pronounced as TH. But when we refer to the sayings of the holy prophet half of the Pakistani's pronounce it as Hadith. Ramzaan ko Ramdhan kehnay say koi ziadah sawab nahi milta.
Then again Arabs are confused about the pronunciations as well. Lebanese will pronounce Usman, but a Saudi will pronounce it as Othman.
Qatar is commonly pronounced as Gatar by Saudis and Buqaala as bugaala, however, Quraan is the same as we pronounce it.
Fraudiay before you ask people to remove redundent alphabets from urdu, will you kindly ask Arabs to remove two out of dal, duad(zuad), and zoy as they are all pronounced with a D sound in arabic.
The jist of roman's argument, as i understood, is that, we have a pronunciation of a particular word in our language, and we should not mimic others, unless the wrong pronunciation renders a wrong meaning.
Roman bhai jaan, aap kay liye guzarish hai keh aap uss qom ko samjhanay ki koshish kar rahey hain jiss ka aik mahinay ka Amrikan visit visa lag janay kay baad R, R ghunnah (noon ghunnah say mutaassir ho kar) aaaahrrrr ban jaata hai.
This is called 'baal ki khaal nikalna'.
People say Ramadan in urdu, and then they say Ramzan.....Both have their reasons, just like some say America, and others say Amreeka.
Roman just follow the english dictionaries accepted spelling. The dictionaries have set a standard of what is an acceptable spelling for the word :)
otherwise write a letter to the dictionaries :)
*Originally posted by The Grateful Dead: *
*Fraudiay before you ask people to remove redundent alphabets from urdu, will you kindly ask Arabs to remove two out of dal, duad(zuad), and zoy as they are all pronounced with a D sound in arabic. *
NO they do not. just listen to some qari reading the Quran. Regardless. ramadan is an arabic word not an urdu word, so we pronounce it the way we want to. But.. if the english dictionary says Ramadan, thats what I am sticking with.
*The jist of roman's argument, as i understood, is that, we have a pronunciation of a particular word in our language, and we should not mimic others, unless the wrong pronunciation renders a wrong meaning. *
and the jist of my argument is that Ramadan is spelled in a particular way, as proven by the listing in the various disctionaries. So lets not mimic Pakistanis and spell it incorrectly. Lets follow proper english :)
*Roman bhai jaan, aap kay liye guzarish hai keh aap uss qom ko samjhanay ki koshish kar rahey hain jiss ka aik mahinay ka Amrikan visit visa lag janay kay baad R, R ghunnah (noon ghunnah say mutaassir ho kar) aaaahrrrr ban jaata hai. *
Okay so ewhen nothing else helps :) start on personal attacks on what you think other people are like :) nice..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Grateful Dead: *
Black zero and prince of dhump in the same topic. Hmmm.
I am now waiting for X-2 to interject and finish the topic..
[/QUOTE]
Heard someone was looking for me. :)
Akif, thanks for the fatwa.
Fraudia,
I think a better solution would be to call Faroz-ul-lughaat people and ask them to remove words like hadees/ahadees, wazoo, and Ramazaan etc from Urdu vernacular. The only problem I see with that is that half of our Urdu poetry kee taang toot jaayay gee. Poets like Mirza Ghalib waghaira nay sharab pee kar khana kaaba aur aab-ay zum zum (Please, let's not have "aab-ay dum dum" discussion) jaisay topics pay khoob shairy jhaari hai. Unkay kaafiay to ch jaaeiN gay.
The point of this discussion wasn't really that use Ramzaan not Ramadan per se. It was mainly the intent/reasons behind switching from an established Urdu word to an Arabic one. If someone uses it, like ABCDs who don't know Urdu, or people as personal colloquiallism like we mix and match words from Urdu and English then that's not even an issue.
My issue has been that most of the time people just start using is daikha diakhee of ABCDs, thinking that by saying Ramazan they friggin' commiting some sort of sin while others use it to promote some kind of obsecure sense of Unity with the Islamic world but end up following Arabic idiosyncracies and confusing them both as synonymous.
*Originally posted by Roman: *
**Fraudia,
I think a better solution would be to call Faroz-ul-lughaat people and ask them to remove words like hadees/ahadees, wazoo, and Ramazaan etc from Urdu vernacular. The only problem I see with that is that half of our Urdu poetry kee taang toot jaayay gee. Poets like Mirza Ghalib waghaira nay sharab pee kar khana kaaba aur aab-ay zum zum (Please, let's not have "aab-ay dum dum" discussion) jaisay topics pay khoob shairy jhaari hai. Unkay kaafiay to ch jaaeiN gay. **
who cares about freoz ul lughat. We are communicating in english and writing it in english so lets just use the english spelling.
btw chanda :) zam zam uses "zay" and not "zuad' so it will never be dum-dum. nice try but no cigar
*The point of this discussion wasn't really that use Ramzaan not Ramadan per se. *
Ohhhhh, okay...
*It was mainly the intent/reasons behind switching from an established Urdu word to an Arabic one. *
Or switching from an established English word to an urdu one..?
*If someone uses it, like ABCDs who don't know Urdu, or people as personal colloquiallism like we mix and match words from Urdu and English then that's not even an issue. *
Or if someone wants to use the proper spelling by arabic as well as..the english standards..
*My issue has been that most of the time people just start using is daikha diakhee of ABCDs, thinking that by saying Ramazan they friggin' commiting some sort of sin while others use it to promote some kind of obsecure sense of Unity with the Islamic world but end up following Arabic idiosyncracies and confusing them both as synonymous. *
Well if people want to start using that spelling in dekha dekhis of abcds who are using the correct spelling per the dictionaries. then let them.
Would you rather have people start spelling it the other way in dekha dekhi of fobs? :)
You are making assumptions about people's intents.
someone may say that you are doing the same by forcing ppl to use an urdu spelling and trying to promote some obscure sense of unity with pakistanis.
Interesting, now your gods will be very proud of you. Just a little clarification. Mehmet is a different name and it is not Mohammad. Even in Arabic, there is a fairly common name which is pronounced as Meh-med (sounds like Mehmet).
Roman, Ferodh-ul-lughat?
who cares about freoz ul lughat. We are communicating in english and writing it in english so lets just use the english spelling. ...
Or switching from an established English word to an urdu one..?
munnay, yay aap kon see English bol rahay hotay heiN jabu aap "Ramadan Mubarik" kehtay haiN?
Aap spelling kee baat boht kar rahay heiN. I thought it was subtitution of the word as per pronounciation. Ramadan aur Ramazaan dou mukhtalif established ilfaaz heiN.
On this same subject, I have mentioned this before, why did so many oof our newly arrived immigrants , especially sikhs change their names to Jimmy or Bobby or Paul? Are the locals of our new nations so dumb as to not be able to pronounce a foreign name? How difficult is it to say Jaswinder or Harbajan for example? or why not just abbreviate to Jaz or Harry?