Questions for desi atheists

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

I am not saying a word here. That will be another war!

But your assumption about the atheist is wrong. Unlike religions, all atheists are not united and do not have a common one belief, they lack a belief and how each believes could be completely different! They do not confide in each other and come up with different rules to conform to but doesn't mean atheist groups do not exist.

Atheists in the name of atheism have not fought a single war! The basis for all Islamic wars and the Crusades and Jewish battles were religious in nature, the need to spread the religion, the need to fight in the name of God. Wars throughout history cannot be attributed to atheism - atheism is lack of belief in god, it's not a belief system that has any guidelines.

like I said not all atheists are vegetarian and anti-war.. we are not exactly indie hippies. One can be against war while the other can be very pro war all things violent.

You believe in a prophet that led war expeditions. you can't get any pro war than that. I can't even say the same for christians because Jesus never fought in a battle yet they led the crusades. what gives?

Right and I do not judge people simply because they muslim, christian or whatever. The problem arises when one imposes their religious beliefs on others. For as long as I have joined this forum, I have been asked a million questions. Why? Because I am an atheist. Have I asked a muslim to explain their beliefs to me? No because it's not that hard to find out info on a belief system that a billion people share. However, atheism is different. it's a lack of belief. It's not a unanimous belief system. We reach our lack of belief through different portals, experiences, thought process, etc etc.

Again, atheism is not a unanimous belief system. We as ATHEISTS do not rule the world. To say atheism has caused bloodshed is absurd. If you tell me one atheist did so and say, i will be like..yeah what an a-hole and how wrong he was for doing it. If I tell you, this caliph or this shaba did this and that, you would justify it. That's the difference!

We are in agreement here.

Alas I did not say that all atheists believe in the same thing and yet I also said that all religions do not believe in the same thing ... My point was because PEOPLE war can we necesarrily blame their beliefs for it ... The rational answer is no we cannot ... Accept this ... then I shall believe you are truthful.

Further we cannot conclude all war is evil - what of those who go out to defend an oppressed people?

[Muzna]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Theorist

But your assumption about the atheist is wrong. Unlike religions, all atheists are not united and do not have a common one belief, they lack a belief and how each believes could be completely different! They do not confide in each other and come up with different rules to conform to but doesn’t mean atheist groups do not exist.

You begin by saying “unlike religions” and you end by saying “doesn’t mean atheist groups do not exist”.
In the very same vein as your argument above…all religious people do not necessarily share the same beliefs and are not necessarily united…very much the same as atheists.

@Theorist

You believe in a prophet that led war expeditions. you can’t get any pro war than that. I can’t even say the same for christians because Jesus never fought in a battle yet they led the crusades. what gives?

I will save a response to this because no doubt it will simply be dismissed as a justification of what the prophet (saw) did…

@Theorist

Right and I do not judge people simply because they muslim, christian or whatever. The problem arises when one imposes their religious beliefs on others. For as long as I have joined this forum, I have been asked a million questions. Why? Because I am an atheist. Have I asked a muslim to explain their beliefs to me? No because it’s not that hard to find out info on a belief system that a billion people share. However, atheism is different. it’s a lack of belief. It’s not a unanimous belief system. We reach our lack of belief through different portals, experiences, thought process, etc etc.

respectfully…your objection to being asked a million questions is starting to grate on me…did you expect any different? if I were a part of a predominantly hindu or catholic board, I would expect to constantly be asked questions…some quite offensive I believe and I would do my best to address them…just as you normally do…but I wouldn’t whine about it.

I can’t believe that anyone here is “imposing” their beliefs on you. How can that be? We are in a virtual world here. Unless of course something someone is saying is making you question yourself…

And I don’t think that you can say atheism is different from our religion because those that call themselves atheists are “believe” that there is no God…right? Isn’t that in and of itself a “system”? No matter what portal or experience or thought process brought you there, this is one thing that you share in common, no?

@Theorist

Again, atheism is not a unanimous belief system. We as ATHEISTS do not rule the world. To say atheism has caused bloodshed is absurd. If you tell me one atheist did so and say, i will be like..yeah what an a-hole and how wrong he was for doing it. If I tell you, this caliph or this shaba did this and that, you would justify it. That’s the difference!

So what would you do if we said that Bob, your uncle, who is also an atheist, killed an intruder in his home in cold-blooded murder? Would you reply in the same way or would you explain to me that the guy he murdered was actually someone that had invaded his home and was threatening him? And how would you feel I turned around and said, “Oh sure…that’s a justification…Bob’s just an idiot and you don’t want to admit it. Bob could have called the authorities…etc.”

By the same token, whenever an explanation is provided for the bloodshed that has occurred at the hands of Muslim leaders, sahabas, prophets, etc, the explanation is written off as justification.

Sorry…that’s just oversimplification.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

As the God described by Islam, I would not send down an angel. I would tell the world myself. Hey look, I am here. Now worship me and tell me how awesome I am. wink wink

Yes, on the religious god if it exists.

If you really studied Islam you would know that the Angels are already in that capacity ... Humans were made for different reasons ...

a) To show that God is needless of worship
b) To show that God Loves to forgive those who seek forgiveness
c) To show the difference between arrogance and humility

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Alas I did not say that all atheists believe in the same thing and yet I also said that all religions do not believe in the same thing ...** My point was because PEOPLE war can we necesarrily blame their beliefs for it **... The rational answer is no we cannot ... Accept this ... then I shall believe you are truthful.

Nope, we cannot blame their beliefs but it's a valid blame when their belief system was spread with the help of violence. Let's take Neo-Nazism for example, I don't believe all Neo Nazism supporters are totally out of whack bad, devient violent people but the fact that they support Nazism & Hitler makes me question their beliefs. I feel the same way about people who support relgious wars and it's probably due to my lack of belief in God.

[QUOTE]
Further we cannot conclude all war is evil - what of those who go out to defend an oppressed people?
[/QUOTE]

No need to use violence. If we are smart enough to build skyscrapers, planes, rockets, we are certainly smart enough to come up with a better solution than pick up a sword and jam it through someone's chest. The thing is people desire war/bloodshed/revenge. It's natural but I feel we should be able to overcome that.

[Muzna]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

The thing is people desire war/bloodshed/revenge. It's natural but I feel we should be able to overcome that.

and this is what our beloved prophet (saw) preferred as well.........
unfortunately not everyone is as evolved as the other.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Nope, we cannot blame their beliefs but** it's a valid blame when their belief system was spread with the help of violence**. Let's take Neo-Nazism for example, I don't believe all Neo Nazism supporters are totally out of whack bad, devient violent people but the fact that they support Nazism & Hitler makes me question their beliefs. I feel the same way about people who support relgious wars and it's probably due to my lack of belief in God.

No need to use violence. If we are smart enough to build skyscrapers, planes, rockets, we are certainly smart enough to come up with a better solution than pick up a sword and jam it through someone's chest. The thing is people desire war/bloodshed/revenge. It's natural but I feel we should be able to overcome that.

It is still not valid ... I could have a brilliant religious system and if some brut comes along and forces others to accept it - you blame the brut not the religion ... Read carefully what you wrote:

When their belief system was spread by violence

Only when you can substantiate where in the religion it states "we must spread religion using violence" can you criticise it ... Where in history was "Islam spread by violence?" The biggest populations of Muslims in any one country is Indonesia ... Which missions of Islamic war campaigns went there?

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

If you really studied Islam you would know that the Angels are already in that capacity ... Humans were made for different reasons ...

a) To show that God is needless of worship b) To show that God Loves to forgive those who seek forgiveness c) To show the difference between arrogance and humility

I was referring to the time when Angel Gabriel came to Muhammad. A,B,C are explained to you through human messengers you believe brought the message from God. They obviously do not serve as a proof for a fair/just God.

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Atheists in the name of atheism have not fought a single war! The basis for all Islamic wars and the Crusades and Jewish battles were religious in nature, the need to spread the religion, the need to fight in the name of God. Wars throughout history cannot be attributed to atheism -atheism is lack of belief in god, it's not a belief system that has any guidelines.

.

utter edited.

Sadam hussain, Gas like half a million kurds.
That turk dude trying to take ppl away from religion, killed like a million ppl.
(both fits your description)

The thing worst atrocities, mass murders are done by the ppl who wanted to "reform" ppl and drive them away from religion.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

No need to use violence. If we are smart enough to build skyscrapers, planes, rockets, we are certainly smart enough to come up with a better solution than pick up a sword and jam it through someone's chest. The thing is people desire war/bloodshed/revenge. It's natural but I feel we should be able to overcome that.

With regards to this ... the nations that have the most atheists are the ones who are responsible for making the most heinous weapons of mass destruction this world has ever known. The very same ones who brought us rockets, planes, skyscrapers are the same nations ... The atheists in with religious - the powermongering elite - cause wars - not religions. And amongst those Islam is by far the sweetest ... Islam requires us to stand up against our will and defend others by putting ourselves in harms way ... this is jihad ... it is a selfless act it is not based on anger and revenge ... Surely you should understand this.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@psyah

It is still not valid … I could have a brilliant religious system and if some brut comes along and forces others to accept it - you blame the brut not the religion … Read carefully what you wrote:

When their belief system was spread by violence

Only when you can substantiate where in the religion it states “we must spread religion using violence” can you criticise it … Where in history was “Islam spread by violence?” The biggest populations of Muslims in any one country is Indonesia … Which missions of Islamic war campaigns went there?

that’s another topic and say whatever you want, I am not about to go there. I have already received a warning for something someone misunderstood (even though I explained it in great details )…but whatever.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

I was referring to the time when Angel Gabriel came to Muhammad. A,B,C are explained to you through human messengers you believe brought the message from God. They obviously do not serve as a proof for a fair/just God.

What is unfair about it? Have you not received the message? Are you not given reason? Does it matter that you did not receive it in person? Do you not reflect on why it was given that way rather than think of how unimportant you have been made to feel? What did you do to deserve a direct message from God anyway?

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

With regards to this ... the nations that have the most atheists are the ones who are responsible for making the most heinous weapons of mass destruction this world has ever known. The very same ones who brought us rockets, planes, skyscrapers are the same nations ... The atheists in with religious - the powermongering elite - cause wars - not religions. And amongst those Islam is by far the sweetest ... Islam requires us to stand up against our will and defend others by putting ourselves in harms way ... this is jihad ... it is a selfless act it is not based on anger and revenge ... Surely you should understand this.

True and that's misuse of the technology scientists have spent their entire life perfecting. Surely you should understand this. It has nothing to do with religion.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

What is unfair about it? Have you not received the message? Are you not given reason?** Does it matter that you did not receive it in person?** Do you not reflect on why it was given that way rather than think of how unimportant you have been made to feel? What did you do to deserve a direct message from God anyway?

Yes :p

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

utter edited.

Sadam hussain, Gas like half a million kurds. That turk dude trying to take ppl away from religion, killed like a million ppl. (both fits your description)

The thing worst atrocities, mass murders are done by the ppl who wanted to "reform" ppl and drive them away from religion.

And they were idiots... a-holes. How are all atheists held accountable for what they did? they had a mind of their own. I wouldn't kill a crowd to reform them. That would not achieve anything.

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

And they were idiots... a-holes. How are all atheists held accountable for what they did? they had a mind of their own. I wouldn't kill a crowd to reform them. That would not achieve anything.

honey your are going against your own statements.

you said "-atheism is lack of belief in god,"

I want to get your fact straight .. most of the pp you are calling a-holes shared some thing common with you!!
All of them trying to fix low level believers like my self...

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

True and that's misuse of the technology scientists have spent their entire life perfecting. Surely you should understand this. It has nothing to do with religion.

Islam in a true Shari'ah would prevent us from making such weapons

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Muzna

You begin by saying “unlike religions” and you end by saying “doesn’t mean atheist groups do not exist”.
In the very same vein as your argument above…all religious people do not necessarily share the same beliefs and are not necessarily united…very much the same as atheists.

It’s a common lack of belief yet every atheist will have a different reason for reaching the belief “god does not exist.” They however all believe that God does not exist and everything from there could vary greatly!

I will save a response to this because no doubt it will simply be dismissed as a justification of what the prophet (saw) did…

Yes, good job..

respectfully…your objection to being asked a million questions is starting to grate on me…did you expect any different? if I were a part of a predominantly hindu or catholic board, I would expect to constantly be asked questions…some quite offensive I believe and I would do my best to address them…just as you normally do…but I wouldn’t whine about it.

True, I should stop answering. I am not whining about it. If I cared so much I could just stop responding altogether. I am just a tad bit hypocrite i suppose and I am enjoying it.. it’s getting annoying though having to answer so many questions but it’s like the hang-up game we play when we are in love, “you hang up…no you hang up…no you..” lol :d

I can’t believe that anyone here is “imposing” their beliefs on you. How can that be? We are in a virtual world here. Unless of course something someone is saying is making you question yourself…

HAHA…I take my GS Desi fellow members to be smarter than myself so sure some of you have indeed made me question myself.

And I don’t think that you can say atheism is different from our religion because those that call themselves atheists are “believe” that there is no God…right? Isn’t that in and of itself a “system”? No matter what portal or experience or thought process brought you there, this is one thing that you share in common, no?

and this is probably where most similarities end..

So what would you do if we said that Bob, your uncle, who is also an atheist, killed an intruder in his home in cold-blooded murder? Would you reply in the same way or would you explain to me that the guy he murdered was actually someone that had invaded his home and was threatening him? And how would you feel I turned around and said, “Oh sure…that’s a justification…Bob’s just an idiot and you don’t want to admit it. Bob could have called the authorities…etc.”

By the same token, whenever an explanation is provided for the bloodshed that has occurred at the hands of Muslim leaders, sahabas, prophets, etc, the explanation is written off as justification.

Sorry…that’s just oversimplification.

There’s a big difference between bloodshed caused by sheer stupidity of our leaders and someone being killed by mistake. Even then I wouldn’t kill an intruder..Maybe knock him out with a bat or something.

You are taking me to some nonviolent saint or something. I am not exactly Gandhi either. I do believe some violence is unavoidable but war is taking it to a whole another level.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Monk

honey your are going against your own statements.

you said “-atheism is lack of belief in god,”

I want to get your fact straight .. most of the pp you are calling a-holes shared some thing common with you!!
All of them trying to fix low level believers like my self…

And? Just because they shared a common belief doesn’t mean we both follow some sort of guidelines to live our life. Again, you do not understand my perspective at all.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Yes :p

Then you can't expect to see or feel God when you have already shut Him out due to arrogance ... The Qur'an tells us this - read the story of Adam's creation and how Iblis responded ... Know that Allah (SWT) is upset with you when you can't realise your own folly and it makes your further away from Him. Even logically speaking if God made us and sustains us, then what right do we have to demand anything from Him ... we should be submitting and then we wil see ...

Let me tell this short metaphor I thought up some years back ...

**When we let the bright lights shine the stars are denied their navigation ...

**The street lights although give us a lot of sight at night on the streets, but they will not tell us which way to go, they will not tell us the bearing on a greater scale ... Rather the light pollution will block out the stars ...

When we switch off these street lights we suddenly see more stars and they are beautiful but they also navigate - they are signs ... in fact the Arabic word for "qur'anic verse is one word for star" the Qur'an is a set of constellations - beautiful and guiding lights ... only when we switch off the bright street lights - our own biases, arrogances, and open ourselves up to receive guidance then we will see the stars and receive guidance ... try it if you can! Just give in to the assumption one day and see what happens ... can you develop a Love for God can move one step towards Him so He rushes towards you?

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Theorist

And? Just because they shared a common belief doesn’t mean we both follow some sort of guidelines to live our life. Again, you do not understand my perspective at all.

why you have atheist have this thing.. where you have talk down on ppl ..to get ego boost ??