Questions for desi atheists

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Theorist, there is nothing closer to you than yourself. If you don't know your self, how will you know others? You might say, "I know myself," but you are mistaken. . . . The only thing you know about your self is your physical appearance. The only thing you know about your inside (batin, your unconscious) is that when you are hungry you eat, when you are angry, you fight, and when you are consumed by passion, you make love. In this regard you are equal to any animal. You have to seek the reality within yourself. . . . What are you? Where have you come from and where are you going. What is your role in the world? Why have you been created? Where does your happiness lie? If you would like to know yourself, you should know that you are created by two things. One is your body and your outer appearance (zahir) which you can see with your eyes. The other is your inner forces (batin). This is the part you cannot see, but you can know with your insight. The reality of your existence is in your inwardness (batin, unconscious). Everything is a servant of your inward heart.

There are a lot of things I cannot see but common sense tells me the reason I don't see them is because they don't exist. It's your belief that your own reality of your existence if in your Batin. It's a theory just like the existence of an omnipotent god. Besides, the big questions you stated in your post could be approached from a million different angles - and most of them do not include a religious God.

Also, know the difference between a creater and an omnipotent god. you believe in an omnipotent God, which I am very much not interested in talking about. We can argue about our creator, which may or may not be a conscious being so following a religion makes no sense.

[Enigmatic]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

^but what exactly would be your purpose of life? As in how do you react to the whole idea of us being in this world and then dying and that's the end to it. Doesn't that seem too bizzarre? Coming to creation all by ourselves. Had this huge earth with different climates, weathers, timezones, day and night and everything going on in a similar fashion over hundreds of years all happening out of random. People are born every minute, they age and then they die. Is that all to life?

For me without having a belief in God or religion I would find everything completely unrealistic. Even an average trashy movie has it's plot written, actors cast and a director and producer to excecute the entire thing. Nothing happens in this world without a purpose nor is random!

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

^but what exactly would be your purpose of life? **As in how do you react to the whole idea of us being in this world and then dying and that's the end to it. **Doesn't that seem too bizzarre? Come to creation all by ourselves. Had this huge earth with different climates, weathers timezones, day and night and everything going on in a similar fashion over hundreds of years. People are born they age and then they die.

Life doesn't need a purpose and I am completely okay with that. The purpose of life is determined by humans, because we are conscious beings. I guess it's kind of pointless to bring up evolution here since most of you don't believe in it. It's our anxious human nature that wants these questions answered in a way that satisfies us. Would it satisfy you if I said there's no given purpose of life? No, knowing that life will continue after our death on earth is perhaps a more satisfying answer for you as it is for all believers. Not a single religion on this earth believes that life STOPS here, ever wonder why? If you really think about your purpose of life from Islam's standpoint, it's to worship Allah, follow the scripture, live a life as if it's a test, and your real life begins once you die and enter Hell or heaven. Is that really a fulfilling purpose? Not for me..

[QUOTE]
For me without having a belief in God or religion I would find everything completely unrealistic. Even an average trashy movie has it's plot written, actors cast and a director and producer to excecute the entire thing. Nothing happens in this world without a purpose nor is random!
[/QUOTE]

I undestand. Life unfortunately is nothing like a movie. Universe is very random contrary to pupolar belief. A lot of things happen without a reason and don't require a reason. There are many theories that claim life is random and so is our place in the universe.

[Ghost14]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

^but what exactly would be your purpose of life? As in how do you react to the whole idea of us being in this world and then dying and that's the end to it. Doesn't that seem too bizzarre? Come to creation all by ourselves. Had this huge earth with different climates, weathers timezones, day and night and everything going on in a similar fashion over hundreds of years. People are born they age and then they die.

For me without having a belief in God or religion I would find everything completely unrealistic. Even an average trashy movie has it's plot written, actors cast and a director and producer to excecute the entire thing. Nothing happens in this world without a purpose nor is random!

That's a very loaded question and there has been writing on this topic for thousands of years. Religions have their own point of view but so do philosophers and other thinkers. I think one reason people are so willing to believe in religion (whether it's right or wrong) is that it provides a very comforting purpose for your existence. It's very scary and depressing to think that there is nothing other than the present and that you simply don't....exist after you die. Not that I believe either side, like I said I don't know, but this topic is interesting to think about.

Religion claims to have an answer but no religion has absolute proof that they are "right". It's called faith, belief without proof.

[The_Jinx]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

I'm going to take this and read it very carefully ... Peace

And having read your various posts in this forum so far, I will be eagerly and impatiently looking forward for your response :)

[Mirch]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Learned a lot from post 117 - batin and zahir. Really enjoyed reading it.

I would like to know what you learned from it.

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Dude theorist, you cant really find/feel/explain allah/God through Christian/Hindu approach.
What extreme advantage we(believers) have is, no matter how sense less things sound to us in quran, we never thought our self "a'*qel-y-qu*l" and
went ahead and change it so It will make sense to convention wisdom. We left things as they were said.
Now all those thing which sounded like utter non-sense through most of the history, are the real traces to the truth.
They explain unlike in Christianity, God isn't really a man. or man like.

He is an entity with different dimension of existence.

Now my question is to you, what if you were God.. and you were like that entity. How would you convince a half atheist posting on GS about your existence?
I say even after being a God you would not have an easy Job at your hand.

I am not asking you to believe in his existence, I am saying try not to find answers on Christians like terms etc... (I got that impression from reading one of your post)

[Mirch]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Monk

D

Now my question is to you, what if you were God.. and you were like that entity. How would you convince a half atheist posting on GS about your existence?
I say even after being a God you would not have an easy Job at your hand.

:k:

Priceless argument. Monk at his best. I wish to see a rebuttal to this one.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Dude theorist, you cant really find/feel/explain allah/God through Christian/Hindu approach. What extreme advantage we(believers) have is, no matter how sense less things sound to us in quran, we never thought our self "a'*qel-y-qu*l" and went ahead and change it so It will make sense to convention wisdom. We left things as they were said. Now all those thing which sounded like utter non-sense through most of the history, are the real traces to the truth. They explain unlike in Christianity, God isn't really a man. or man like.

He is an entity with different dimension of existence.

Now my question is to you, what if you were God.. and you were like that entity. How would you convince a half atheist posting on GS about your existence? I say even after being a God you would not have an easy Job at your hand.

I am not asking you to believe in his existence, I am saying try not to find answers on Christians like terms etc... (I got that impression from reading one of your post)

I come from a muslim family. I don't have a Christian perspective on God. I speak in common religious perspective. Omnipotent= all powerful, all knowing God. This is what ALL religions claim - not just Christianiaty. God knows your every move - all religions I know claim this.

If I were god? well I don't even believe such an entity even exists so how can I tell you what I'd do if i were one. say if i were a religious god as religions describe it, I would be ashamed of myself for being such a #%@

Questions such a as "if I you were god" make me truly believe, you have no idea what we think and how we think.

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Theorist dude, anna ka masla mat baanao.... I used to talk like you. I know!!

just one little detail, to us Muslims, unlike Christians rebels Him being "Omnipotent" is NOT an issue at all !!!!
Its extremely Christian argument I have heard it a million times before.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Theorist dude, anna ka masla mat baanao.... I used to talk like you. I know!!

just one little detail, to us Muslims, unlike Christians rebels Him being "Omnipotent" is NOT an issue at all !!!! Its extremely Christian argument I have heard it a million times before.

I am not a dude!

Even if you talked like me you clearly do not understand my perspective. No one on this board has. Not all atheists are alike, I have said this before!

What type of Christians think God is not an omnipotent deity? Perhaps the ones that can't give up Christian faith, holding on to whatever they can to justify their beliefs.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

**Part 1 - Thoughts on an atheist’s post

**Islam stands for peace and sometimes it is necessary to pick up a sword in order to disarm a mad man who wields another – after which point there is nothing further in semblance between a true Muslim and a sword.

In this world, especially in the modern world we are born in to a time when there are many dynamics already in play and if we try to get our bearings from within this picture we can often be misled. Islam is not a religion of bloodshed it is a religion of mercy. Islam’s calendar does not start from a noted battle in victory, but rather from the hijrah, which marks the time when Muslims fled from oppression. The fleeing represents the freedom that we obtained not by fighting but by running away.

Other religions are as much a part of us as atheism is a part of us. Each religion and each religious ideology needs to be given its own scrutiny. The wrongs of the Christians are not necessarily due to their faith, but if it is then it is not fair to blame all faiths for the wrong of one. Likewise I would never make the mistake of blaming atheism for bloodshed and oppression by the various atheist forces in history:

**State atheism - Wikipedia

Militant Atheist: Crimes and Evils of Atheism/Communism

**Although these articles will do just that … they will blame all of the atheists for the crimes of a few … I will not be so generic. I blame them, those atheists who were hell bent to destroy the idea and the people of religion. On the flip side I plead that we people of religion are not equated with all religious people, and us Muslims are not equated to those fringe groups who call themselves Muslim yet create unrest and damage the reputation of Muslims.

At the same time although I believe some atheists have as much or more blood on their hands, but in reality numbers make no difference to me, an injustice to one is as though it is an injustice to the whole of humanity, to many theists – their actions and their counterpart’s actions are wrong, but I will not judge every atheist by the agendas of others and I will not judge atheism by the actions of atheists. Is it not fair to expect the same in return?

With regards to wars in history … I would advise careful study and therein to look out for the delicate nuances that are prevalent to determine who were in the right and who in the wrong, but one tool can be used to prevent the creeping of bias if that is we want to prevent bias even if that may be within ourselves.

Let’s consider wars:

• Islamic/Muslim wars
• Crusades
• The Jewish battles

A Muslim, A Christian, A Jew, two Atheists and a Logician were present discussing these topics. Typically the Muslim defended all Islamic wars or rather equated all Muslim wars with Islam and called the other two types as impious, The Christians defended the Crusades calling the others as wrong, and the Jew claimed his people’s fights as holy and others as evil. Whilst they were arguing one atheist entered and said “none are right!” Then the three theists huddled together and said “how can we stand against this?” And they learned about wars by atheists and used them to argue that the atheists wars were evil … another atheist entered the room and claimed that the atheist wars were good to destroy the evil of religion, that it was necessary to have war to kill those people who were supporting evil religious regimes … but the first atheist said “they are all wrong, even the atheist wars, they are all wrong”. This is when the logician entered the room.

After finding out the matter she asked those present “So who believes war is right?” None of the people put their hand up … “Are you telling me that wars are wrong yet you all were supporting your own wars?” The Muslim answered “some wars are good and others are evil”, and then the logician asked him “so then it is possible that some of your wars are evil”
“no”,
“why”, she responded. But he could not answer without going into the details of the wars. The same with the others, they had to concede that not every war in the name of their religion was good.
The atheists were happy, “Why do you believe that all wars are evil?” she pointed at one atheist, should people not defend themselves, is it not evil to allow your countrymen to be killed?” – Silence.
“I see here two atheists, one supporting war another against it” she continued, “Can I conclude that being an atheist does not make you necessarily a supporter of war and hence atheism does not stop you from being pro-war?”
They both had to agree …
“Therefore we cannot blame theists for evil on account of their faith, for sure if atheists can be both for and against war at the same time, so can theists”

Nothing is black and white … few things are absolute and a person who is true will not accuse a person for the inefficiencies of another. Likewise such a righteous person will not blame a people for the wrongs of a few and will not judge an order on account of some or even most of its adherents, but will give the texts that make up that order due scrutiny instead.

**Is it true that religion has not accomplished anything, if this even means anything shall we not ask what has atheism accomplished?

**Now let’s ask ourselves the question … How did the idea of God come about? And we need to be fair with this question …

1. We introduced the idea through a process of our own needs/desires
2. It comes naturally to us to think about a possible Deity
3. Deity came to us to tell us about Him

Because there is more than one possibility we cannot conclusively say that any of these is fact unless more information has been obtained until then we must remain open to the possibilities of either one.

**Part 2 follows inshaAllah … **

[Ghost14]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Monk

Now my question is to you, what if you were God.. and you were like that entity. How would you convince a half atheist posting on GS about your existence?
I say even after being a God you would not have an easy Job at your hand.

@Mirch

:k:

Priceless argument. Monk at his best. I wish to see a rebuttal to this one.

The same way God convinced all the prophets: burning bush, miracles etc. Lift mount Everest, part the seas, make it snow in the Sahara. That would be convincing, no? Instead all religions ask you to take their word that they’re right.

[The_Jinx]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

This may also be helpful InshAllah

Why do bad things happen? A question that steer many people towards the path of Atheism.

[Muzna]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

If I were god? well I don't even believe such an entity even exists so how can I tell you what I'd do if i were one. say if i were a religious god as religions describe it, I would be ashamed of myself for being such a #%@

respectfully.....
your reply doesn't address the question......granted you would be ashamed for your behaviour/actions.......but what would you do to convince disbelievers that you exist? speaking hypothetically of course.....

and not to be aggressive about criticizing your debating style.....but your reply really isn't anything but an attack directly on an entity that you don't believe to exist and indirectly on all those that do believe in His existence......

Questions such a as "if I you were god" make me truly believe, you have no idea what we think and how we think.

true....I don't understand what "you" think and that explains my presence and participation in this thread.......I do want to understand.

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

Mirch I had good break fast today

[Monk]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@Theorist

I am not a dude!

Even if you talked like me you clearly do not understand my perspective. No one on this board has. Not all atheists are alike, I have said this before!

What type of Christians think God is not an omnipotent deity? Perhaps the ones that can’t give up Christian faith, holding on to whatever they can to justify their beliefs.

I have lived that perspective.
Thats way I say, keep you non believing.. your doubts in your heart. Keep them sacred.
I know most people talking religion are like talking a different language. For you its not time yet.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

@psyah

**Part 1 - Thoughts on an atheist’s post

**Islam stands for peace and sometimes it is necessary to pick up a sword in order to disarm a mad man who wields another – after which point there is nothing further in semblance between a true Muslim and a sword.

In this world, especially in the modern world we are born in to a time when there are many dynamics already in play and if we try to get our bearings from within this picture we can often be misled. Islam is not a religion of bloodshed it is a religion of mercy. Islam’s calendar does not start from a noted battle in victory, but rather from the hijrah, which marks the time when Muslims fled from oppression. The fleeing represents the freedom that we obtained not by fighting but by running away.

I am not saying a word here. That will be another war!

Other religions are as much a part of us as atheism is a part of us. Each religion and each religious ideology needs to be given its own scrutiny. The wrongs of the Christians are not necessarily due to their faith, but if it is then it is not fair to blame all faiths for the wrong of one. Likewise I would never make the mistake of blaming atheism for bloodshed and oppression by the various atheist forces in history:

**State atheism - Wikipedia

http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/atheist_crimes.htm

**Although these articles will do just that … they will blame all of the atheists for the crimes of a few … I will not be so generic. I blame them, those atheists who were hell bent to destroy the idea and the people of religion. On the flip side I plead that we people of religion are not equated with all religious people, and us Muslims are not equated to those fringe groups who call themselves Muslim yet create unrest and damage the reputation of Muslims.

At the same time although I believe some atheists have as much or more blood on their hands, but in reality numbers make no difference to me, an injustice to one is as though it is an injustice to the whole of humanity, to many theists – their actions and their counterpart’s actions are wrong, but I will not judge every atheist by the agendas of others and I will not judge atheism by the actions of atheists. Is it not fair to expect the same in return?

With regards to wars in history … I would advise careful study and therein to look out for the delicate nuances that are prevalent to determine who were in the right and who in the wrong, but one tool can be used to prevent the creeping of bias if that is we want to prevent bias even if that may be within ourselves.

Let’s consider wars:

• Islamic/Muslim wars
• Crusades
• The Jewish battles

A Muslim, A Christian, A Jew, two Atheists and a Logician were present discussing these topics. Typically the Muslim defended all Islamic wars or rather equated all Muslim wars with Islam and called the other two types as impious, The Christians defended the Crusades calling the others as wrong, and the Jew claimed his people’s fights as holy and others as evil. Whilst they were arguing one atheist entered and said “none are right!” Then the three theists huddled together and said “how can we stand against this?” And they learned about wars by atheists and used them to argue that the atheists wars were evil … another atheist entered the room and claimed that the atheist wars were good to destroy the evil of religion, that it was necessary to have war to kill those people who were supporting evil religious regimes … but the first atheist said “they are all wrong, even the atheist wars, they are all wrong”. This is when the logician entered the room.

But your assumption about the atheist is wrong. Unlike religions, all atheists are not united and do not have a common one belief, they lack a belief and how each believes could be completely different! They do not confide in each other and come up with different rules to conform to but doesn’t mean atheist groups do not exist.

Atheists in the name of atheism have not fought a single war! The basis for all Islamic wars and the Crusades and Jewish battles were religious in nature, the need to spread the religion, the need to fight in the name of God. Wars throughout history cannot be attributed to atheism - atheism is lack of belief in god, it’s not a belief system that has any guidelines.

After finding out the matter she asked those present “So who believes war is right?” None of the people put their hand up … “Are you telling me that wars are wrong yet you all were supporting your own wars?” The Muslim answered “some wars are good and others are evil”, and then the logician asked him “so then it is possible that some of your wars are evil”
“no”,
“why”, she responded. But he could not answer without going into the details of the wars. The same with the others, they had to concede that not every war in the name of their religion was good.
The atheists were happy, “Why do you believe that all wars are evil?” she pointed at one atheist, should people not defend themselves, is it not evil to allow your countrymen to be killed?” – Silence.
“I see here two atheists, one supporting war another against it” she continued, “Can I conclude that being an atheist does not make you necessarily a supporter of war and hence atheism does not stop you from being pro-war?”
They both had to agree …

like I said not all atheists are vegetarian and anti-war.. we are not exactly indie hippies. One can be against war while the other can be very pro war all things violent.

“Therefore we cannot blame theists for evil on account of their faith, for sure if atheists can be both for and against war at the same time, so can theists”

You believe in a prophet that led war expeditions. you can’t get any pro war than that. I can’t even say the same for christians because Jesus never fought in a battle yet they led the crusades. what gives?

Nothing is black and white … few things are absolute and a person who is true will not accuse a person for the inefficiencies of another. Likewise such a righteous person will not blame a people for the wrongs of a few and will not judge an order on account of some or even most of its adherents, but will give the texts that make up that order due scrutiny instead.

Right and I do not judge people simply because they muslim, christian or whatever. The problem arises when one imposes their religious beliefs on others. For as long as I have joined this forum, I have been asked a million questions. Why? Because I am an atheist. Have I asked a muslim to explain their beliefs to me? No because it’s not that hard to find out info on a belief system that a billion people share. However, atheism is different. it’s a lack of belief. It’s not a unanimous belief system. We reach our lack of belief through different portals, experiences, thought process, etc etc.

Is it true that religion has not accomplished anything, if this even means anything shall we not ask what has atheism accomplished?

Again, atheism is not a unanimous belief system. We as ATHEISTS do not rule the world. To say atheism has caused bloodshed is absurd. If you tell me one atheist did so and say, i will be like..yeah what an a-hole and how wrong he was for doing it. If I tell you, this caliph or this shaba did this and that, you would justify it. That’s the difference!

Now let’s ask ourselves the question … How did the idea of God come about? And we need to be fair with this question …

1. We introduced the idea through a process of our own needs/desires
2. It comes naturally to us to think about a possible Deity
3. Deity came to us to tell us about Him

Because there is more than one possibility we cannot conclusively say that any of these is fact unless more information has been obtained until then we must remain open to the possibilities of either one.

We are in agreement here.

[Theorist]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

respectfully..... your reply doesn't address the question......granted you would be ashamed for your behaviour/actions.......but what would you do to convince disbelievers that you exist? speaking hypothetically of course.....

As the God described by Islam, I would not send down an angel. I would tell the world myself. Hey look, I am here. Now worship me and tell me how awesome I am. wink wink

[QUOTE]
and not to be aggressive about criticizing your debating style.....but your reply really isn't anything but an attack directly on an entity that you don't believe to exist and indirectly on all those that do believe in His existencetrue....I don't understand what "you" think and that explains my presence and participation in this thread.......I do want to understand.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, on the religious god if it exists.

[psyah]

Re: Questions for desi atheists

The same way God convinced all the prophets: burning bush, miracles etc. Lift mount Everest, part the seas, make it snow in the Sahara. That would be convincing, no? Instead all religions ask you to take their word that they're right.

Peace Ghost14

The prophets did not need convincing and certainly were not convinced by miracles ... it was reason ... Muhammad (SAW) doubted his miraculous encounter with Jibreel (AS) he was not convinced by it ... rather it was reason of Khadijah (AS) that gave him comfort and remove his doubts. The Qur'an addresses this response ... it is an age old question ... "If God exists, or if you are from God then prove it" ... In one account either Abu Jahl or Abu Lahb asked Muhammad (SAW)to prove that he was a prophet by telling him what was in his hand ... He picked up a rock earlier ...

Muhammad (SAW) said, I'll better than that ... I'll get what is in your hand to tell you who I am, and the rock spoke ... "O so-and-so the man who you address is the Prophet of Allah (SWT)"

He threw the stone and cried magician ... magician ... miracles don't prove the truth of God. There is another reason why God does not show Himself to us ... In the account of Musa (AS) God revealed a glimmer of His reflecting Light on the mountains and they became rubble and the mere suggestion of that Light sent Musa (AS) unconscious. We in this world are living in a temporal system and our temporal bodies and existences cannot render sheer infinity ... the attempt of doing so will be catastrophic. Our human existence makes seeing God impossible. And had we seen Him, our choice to worship Him would carry no weight ... we would fall into unrelenting worship we will be unable to resist and unwilling to resist His Light and we will fall prostrate ... One of the punishments on the Day of Judgement to those who were too arrogant to worship God in this life will be prevented from it on that Day ... when their whole selves will be forcing them to submit, but the chains they will be in will prevent them and keep their backs straight ... On that Day there will be no choice but to submit ... so we should be wise and CHOOSE to submit in this life ... Why ask out of arrogance show me a sign and then if you do not accept then surely the punishment should be increased ... Such was the case of earlier generations they saw clear proofs but in their denial they were destroyed.

Who are we to question the Wisdom of God?