Please don't bring in Nuh (AS) and Lut (AS). I know that Lut's (AS) wife was left behind and was punished with the rest. I can't recall about Nuh's (AS) wife.
Also, I'm not familiar with the law for the previous prophets. However, I know for a fact that Muslim men are not allowed to marry or remain married to non-Muslims. It's either gotta be Muslim women or Ahle Kitaab's women.
However, as per your logic, Allah (SWT) clearly called Aisha (RA) and Hafsa (RA) unbelievers and Muhammad (SAW) decided to stay married to the unbelieving women.
Also, I'm not familiar with the law for the previous prophets. However, I know for a fact that Muslim men are not allowed to marry or remain married to non-Muslims. It's either gotta be Muslim women or Ahle Kitaab's women.
However, as per your logic, Allah (SWT) clearly called Aisha (RA) and Hafsa (RA) unbelievers and Muhammad (SAW) decided to stay married to the unbelieving women.
When quran talks about munafiqs, its addressing a certain group of people am I right? But those people, call themselves muslims, and full filll the requirements of becoming a muslim, recite kalma etc....
Then why is it that to some muslims quran refers to as munafiq's? Cos what we as muslims are supposed believe and act according to is what a person claims he is. If one claims to be a muslim, treat them like muslim, but God knows all (unlike me and u), and knows what's hidden deep down inside that persons heart. Therefore God address them (people who calim to be muslims but in their hearts are non believers) as munafiqs, kafir,s non believers etc...
Then why is it that to some muslims quran refers to as munafiq's? Cos what we as muslims are supposed believe and act according to is what a person claims he is. If one claims to be a muslim, treat them like muslim, but God knows all (unlike me and u), and knows what's hidden deep down inside that persons heart. Therefore God address them (people who calim to be muslims but in their hearts are non believers) as munafiqs, kafir,s non believers etc...
I do not wish to argue with you anymore. Muslim men can only marry and remain married to Muslim women or women of Ahle Kitaab. You obviously have different views and beliefs and I'd rather leave it at that.
Its your perogative, but I did notice that you completley ignored my last post.
And please don't make judgement calls about my views and beliefs about marriage with non muslims, as you are not aware of my issues.
What I was trying to explan which apperantly I failed at is you can only marray a mulim but what if some ppl claim to be muslims, and we are to treat them like muslims, and we can remain married to them, but deep down inside they are say musrhiks? (eg. a christian girl converts to marry a muslim boy (happens every day in the west) and publicly declare that she is muslim, but deep down inside her heart, she is still a christian.
God knows whats inside everybody hearts and God can refer to them as non beleivers in this world and the next, based on what they truly beleive as oppose to what the publicly declare.
And please don't make judgement calls about my views and beliefs about marriage with non muslims, as you are not aware of my issues.
What I was trying to explan which apperantly I failed at is you can only marray a mulim but what if some ppl claim to be muslims, and we are to treat them like muslims, and we can remain married to them, but deep down inside they are say musrhiks? (eg. a christian girl converts to marry a muslim boy (happens every day in the west) and publicly declare that she is muslim, but deep down inside her heart, she is still a christian.
God knows whats inside everybody hearts and God can refer to them as non beleivers in this world and the next, based on what they truly beleive as oppose to what the publicly declare.
My statement about your views and beliefs = your views and beliefs about Aisha (RA) and Hafsa (RA) being unbelievers and not the topic of marriage.
I do not wish to indulge into any sort of arguments with you. There's clearly a difference of opinion and beliefs. Hence, I will not proceed to answering or discussing munafiqs, and the like.
Islam is such a tolerable religion, and my logic states that it doesnt allow us to call names or say offensive statements or put tohmat ( calling munafiqs) at person who is respectable to any other religious group (sect/religion). We respect all the ahl-e-bait n i think this is what we should be doing as muslims.Sunnis dont say bad things about anyone who is respectable to other sect but infact we respect them as much as u do
If on the street where you live, a person moves in and starts cursing your parents or relatives who have died, no doubt a person would resort to asking him to quit…You can tell that person, that listen, I respect your views, whetever they may be, but cursing the people that have died and are loved by me, please don’t insult them…You can tell him, I respect whatever your views are and although I don’t agree with them, you to your way and me to mine…
That way you’ll hope to appeal that person’s sensitivities…Yet he doesn’t quit cursing your dead parents or your dead relatives whom you love and have reverence for…
Then you tell him, listen, they are dead and are no more as harmful to you as any dead person…They are dead but I love and adore them…Do whatever you wish to do I will never stop you from doing it, but please…Leave my dead parents and relatives who have caused you no harm nor are they capable of harming you…Please don’t curse them and abuse them…I honour and revere them…
That way you’ll hope to appeal to his logc…Yet he doesn’t quit cursing your dead parents or your dead relatives whom you love and adore…
By this time, as any person would, you would realize that this person is beyond reasoning and the best thing you can do is protect yourself from his Shar, as any person who is capable…Because if even after your pleas and requests to stop him from doing something which only brings about hatred and misunderstandings between you, you should know, that that person surely means you no good…
And if that person comes across someone who adores his dead parents and relatives more than anything, you can be sure…That this vile and evil person will surely meet his doom…
^ not that i am for this sort of thing, nor have I participated in this thread, but I would just like to point out that when Sunnies declare Abu Talib explicitly to be Kafir on the basis of their version of history, they are doing exactly the same thing. They are calling one of the closest relations, guardians and benefactors of the Prophet, someone for whom the Prophet declared aam-ul-husn (along with Bibi Khadija) and someone all shias revere a Kafir. No ill will is admitted there, and no sentiments are catered for, because for sunnies that is a "fact". Why play hurt when someone else has different "fact"s of his own then?
Dont assume there is a shortage of sunnies who go to shia forums and other such places and try to prove Abu Talib's Kufr. I have personally been at Abu Talib's grave, standing there while a Mutawwa kept asking us to move along because he is a Kafir.
No Sunni calls Abu Talib a Kafir, however it is known that he died on Kufr…Like I said before ravage, nisbat, relations and kinship to Prophets (PBUT) mean nothing in Islam…Only your piety is the standard by which you are judged…
Abu Talib may have died on Kufr and since he died on Kufr, it is safe to say that indeed he was a Kafir…However, all Sunnis know the adoration and love the Holy Prophet :saw: had for his uncle and it is for this reason alone that Sunnis have a deep respect for Abu Talib but no Sunni will ever curse or abuse him…Neither will any Sunni curse or abuse the king of Ethiopa who sided with the Muslims, although he himself was a Kafir…
Knowing someone to be a non-Muslim and calling him thus is not the same as cursing or abusing someone…
And since the western media, as always, tries its best to make us better Muslims than what the Quran or Sunnah is capable of, the term ‘Kafir’ has come symbolize something lowly…
Such is not the case…The term Kafir means nothing more than to cover up something…A Kafir is someone who covers up…A Muslim grave digger in Arabic is called a Kafir…Someone who covers up…In Islamic terminology it signifies someone who has been made aware of the Truth, yet he covers it, hence he becomes a Kafir…
So, calling Abu Talib a Kafir is nothing demeaning…And I am sure you know that he did die on Kufr…
Curious One — It is a fact that the Prophet (saw) chose to live last few precious days of his life here on earth in Hz. Aisha’s (May Allah (swt) be pleased with her) room.
And when he departed from this world he was resting his blessed head in her lap.
Isn’t it strange that the person who calls others to follow him in the Way of Allah (swt) which leads Mankind to salvation and yet he chooses comfort for himself in last days of this life in the company of hypocrite/unbeliever – according to your beliefs.
it could be the case, but it is wrong to say bad things about anyone (especially those who were close to prophet) may that be sunni or shia,it is not a good idea to curse those who died
Allah knows best
You’re wrong to be so sure then. According to shias he was as much in a state of Kufr as Bibi Khadija or anyone else. That he was a Kafir is what Sunni version of history states.
You’ve just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about before, when I said that for Sunnies calling someone with nisbat to the Prophet and reverence for much of the Muslim world a Kafir is not an insult. but if a shia were to do exactly the same, then we would have sunnies asking what the Prophet would say to the person on the day of Judgement (implicitly suggesting nisbat’s significance, see armughals very first post) along with feelings of hurt and resentment and incomprehensible shia mentality of calling revered people Kafir.
Suddenly calling someone a Kafir is not an insult? Has Curious One said anything else about the two wives except about their beliefs? He hasnt called her names, all he said was that they were in unbelief, or could be munafiqs, I dont see any difference between that and calling someone a Kafir. And you and others in this thread have voiced their hurt.
He isnt even citing shia recordings of History hes referencing the Quran. All you have to prove Abu Talib’s Kufr is Sunni versions of History. Is that supposed to be proof?
according to us he was. Even in mutually acceptable versions of history He said the Prophet's nikah and Ali inherited from him, both of which are not permissible for Muslims from Kafirs. The prophet's nikah was never re-said.
bottom line is, if you're expecting people to respect and refrain from questioning figures while there exist conflicts of history and evidence about their Eeman, be prepared to forego some of your own beliefs too.
I didn’t know Shias considered Abu Talib as a Muslim…That’s the first time I am hearing that…
Still, you will never hear a Sunni abuse or curse him or even challenge the position he held in the life of the Holy Prophet :saw: and the love and respect which the Holy Prophet (saw) held for him…
All we know that as Abu Talib was dying, the Holy Prophet :saw: told him to even just whisper in his ear the Shahada…But Abu Talib refused…
But in the case of Shias, seems he did declare the Shahada…
It seems strange that my brother’s MIL is a stout Barelvi…Deeply and devotionaly steeped in peeri mureedi…
I didn’t know that Barelvis consider Abdullah, the father of the Holy Prophet :saw: as a Muslim…And she and I got into an argument about why he died on Kufr…Because in Sahih Bukhari, it relates how a Sahabi came to the Holy Prophet (saw) and asked him where his father was who was deceased…The Holy Prophet :saw: stated that he was in hellfire…Upon hearing this, the Sahabi became most sad and quietly started walking away, but the Holy Prophet :saw: came up behind him and placed a hand on his shoulder and said, don’t be sad…My father too is in hellfire…
Also in Sahih Bukhari, a Sahabi asked the Holy Prophet :saw: that since he loved Abu Talib so much and since he hadn’t accepted Islam, what was there that the Holy Prophet :saw: do?
The Holy Prophet :saw: said, the only thing I could do was pray that his punishment be reduced as much as possible for which the he will receive the lightest punishment…i.e. he will be made to stand in a pool (or river) of fire the heat of which will boil his brain…
Wallahoalam, but still…No Sunni ever bestows his lanat or questions the love that Abu Talib had for his nephew…
once agian, this is couching the debate in terms comfortable for you. Firstly you have no proof to suggest that no sunni bestows his lanat on Abu Talib. That is an extremely broad-brush statement, with no real basis at all, given how varied and diverse the sunni world is compared to your person. It is enough insult to discourage people who revere a person from attending his grave and saying fateha by calling him Kafir. Secondly nobody here was casting lanat on the two wives of the Prophet, it was merely a question of them being unbelievers yet that was hurtful for you. Why?
Why were parables to insults to parents and the Prophet's rage on the day of Qiyama being drawn IF calling somoene a kafir is not an insult? Even try substituting your above posts from Abu Talib to Ayesha, and you will find that saying that Bibi Ayesha's brain will Khuda na khwasta boil is not something acceptable for you.
Routinely Sunnies forego even ahadith deemed sahih in their books when it conflicts with an article of their faith. Just the other day you were negating evidence deemed sahih by imam Malik. Some time before I have had people (Anwaar Quraishi) questioning Sahih Muslim on "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and the Ahl e Bait", saying Sahih Bukhari was more accurate anyway. Do you honestly, honestly figure there is ANY justification at all for this selective rejection of certain traditions except for what does conflict with your core beliefs and what does not? Yet when it comes to matters like this, narrations of History become Gospel truth.
Even if you believe something, if you expect others to respect what you believe, offer others the same. You have consistently insulted Abu Talib in this thread while consistently saying you're not. I can tell you this, if You substitute Ayesha in all of this and post it on a sunni forum, I can assure you you will recieve much attention about calling her Kafir and susggesting she will stand in a pool of fire boiling her brain.
There is a difference between Abu Talib and Bibi Ayesha …According to Sunnis, Abu Talib was a person who died on disbelief, as a Kafir…
While similarly according to Sunnis, Bibi Ayesha died as a Muslim, not only that, but had Ayahs in Quran revealed about her from Allah :swt:…But that is besides the point…
All we know is that Bibi Ayesha died as a Muslim and as such, her matters rest with Allah :swt:…And hence, according to Sunni Beliefs, no Sunni will declare another Muslim’s fate in the hereafter as good or bad…That rests with Allah :swt:…But in the case of the Companions, their piety and their fate is known to us through what the Holy Prophet :saw: said about them…That they are the best of any generations that passed or will come…
So for that reason alone, apart from the couple of mentioned hypocrites such Abdullah ibn Ubbay, we Sunnis declare every Companion as righteous and destined for Paradise and the favours of Allah :swt:…
I can vouch that no Sunni bestows his lanat upon Abu Talib…We have too much respect for someone who spent so much time with the Holy Prophet :saw:, literally from childhood and someone who took care of him…
I can definitely vouch that no Sunni in his right mind would ever curse or ridicule Abu Talib…He has too much respect in the Sunni circles for anyone to curse him…
In fact, during sermons of scholars, he is referred to as ‘the beloved uncle’…
According to Sunnis, Abu Talib was a person who died on disbelief, as a Kafir...
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Neend aa rahi hai kia :-)
In all of the above, the core thing is "according to Sunni beliefs". Do you expect a shia to voice sunni beliefs or shia beliefs? Why would you demand consideration for people we might believe to be in a state of Kufr when on the same basis (belief) you dont refrain from calling people of similar stature whom we revere Kafir?
Forget Lanat, for that is your word against mine. Merely what has been said about Ayesha in this thread, much, much more has been said about Abu Talib. Whereas Ayesha has been called a Kafir, Abu Talib has been called a kafir and it has been said that he will stand in a pool of fire with his brain boiling. For what has been said about bibi Ayesha, Sunnies have expressed much condemnation and feelings of hurt and resentment. Lets just focus on what we have, instead of what we cannot prove.
Im not asking you to explain your beliefs, I am well aware of the Sunni view of Abu Talib. Im asking why would you and other sunnies react this way to something you routinely do yourself, merely for a different personality?
So, do you believe that Bibi Ayesha died as a Kafir?
The reason we don't call him a Kafir, is because it's disprespectful...He may have died as one but we don't like to say it...He was a Kafir but out of respect we don't mention it as such...He was too important a personality to be rounded up with the rest of the Kuffar, hence we don't call him a Kafir...We simply word it as that he died on Kufr...
But Shhh...That's just between you and me...
P.S. I posted one more post after the one you quoted...
…According to Sunnis, Abu Talib was a person who died on disbelief, as a Kafir…