I dont know Lajawab. I dont view her very favourably but I dont view her as a Kafir.
I did read the previous post, thereby saying that lets lay off whether or not Sunnies send lanat or not and simply focus on what has been said on this thread. I dont wish to call you a liar, but certainly you might have not come across people whom I have come across.
As for Sunnies respecting Abu Talib, plenty of Sunnies do respect him, plenty of Sunnies dont. You have to go to places like shiachat.com or saudi arabia to find people who resent him to the extent of opening threads on him or shouting at people who visit his grave, the latter has personally happened to me. Im not suggesting that you, or sunnies you know are that way, it is certainly commendable that you are not. Certainly some sunnies also believe that Abu Talib was not a Kafir, there is an oft quoted book named "Eeeman e Abu Talib" for which I cannot find a reference at this point.
So long as we agree that there should be a code of respect inspite of personal beliefs about the hellfire deservingness of someone whom another might love and revere I have no beef with you.
Same way according to Shias, Hazrat Abu Talib died on Islam where as Bibi Ayesha died on disbelief.
In Musnad Ahmed Hanbal, it is mentoined that Bibi Ayehsa had named Uthman as Nathal, who should be killed and Murtakib-e-kufr. If Bibi is regarded as siidiqa then we will have to accept what she called Uthman.
Now if I take word of Bibi Ayesha and refer to Uthamn as Kafir all hell will break loose, but its ok to call Hazrat Abu Talib kafir, even though shias don’t beleive that.
I can go on an and elaborate on this hadeeth, but I don’t want to start another debate, I would prefer if people can stick to the issue I had orignaly raised. Which was about soura thereems ayat # 5
im confused here ...i wanna know that if our Prophet pbuh married bibi ayesha becuase she deserved to b married only by our Prophet pbuh...then why she did that mistake..with Prophet pbuh..who is rehmatullil alameen...pls make me understand with logics..pls give me some good reasoning...why bibi ayesha did that n why God send wahi after this incident.
ravage dear,well i m a sunni and in my whole life,i have not come accross a single sunni or came accross any book giving lanat to abu talib.....so i dont know from where u r coming??....u shias have been crosing limits in calling names to shahaba and tht is evident to any 1 living in sensitive like karachi...
n i dont buy that .not a good justification..that .if some sunnies insult Hazrat Abu Talib u have a right to insult wives of prophet.
where r ur own morals than?
it is just not right to discuss those who r not alive in this way ..becoz if they were wrong, Allah will surely ask them on judgement day..its not us who decide anyway
it is just not right to discuss those who r not alive in this way ..becoz if they were wrong, Allah will surely ask them on judgement day..its not us who decide anyway
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These people are role-models for millions of muslims worldwide so it is important to know the truth about them
and the truth is bibi ayesha was a non believer????...wht the hell believes wah wah wah...
i wonder the day people use common sense the day shiaism and barelvi fitna will end
Guy1 what you say is not proof. What I have experienced is not proof. I explained my reasons for saying that sunnies do debase Abu Talib. Four of them are:
a. Calling him a Kafir
b. Suggesting he will stand in a pool of fire with his brain boiling
c. Discouraging people from offering fateha on his grave since he is Kafir
d. Opening similar threads to this one in shia dominated forums and trying to prove his Kufr.
If you want me to bring a sunni before you in chains as proof I cannot do so, but both a and b are on the previous page. They might not seem like insults to you, but much less has been said about bibi Ayesha on this thread and it has provoked responses of hurt sentiments and so on.
blueberry you didnt get the gist of my argument. It wasnt that its okay to revile Ayesha because Abu Talib gets the same treatment from some sunnies, it was that Abu Talib shouldnt get the treatment normal for Sunnies to give him (see Kafir and brain boiling) if they feel hurt about Bibi Ayesha getting similar treatment.
Isn’t it enough, that the woman we consider the mother of the believers, to be considered an adulteress even after having been attested of her innocence and character by Allah :swt:? Isn’t it enough that you scholars consider that when the 12th Imam comes, he will exhume the body of the mother of the believers and punish her for zina …
So OK, this thread has not dragged the name of the mother of the believers through the dirt thanks to the moderation, but when was the last time you saw a Sunni drag the name of Abu Talib in this forum? Or throw lanat?
This thread was not about about Abu Talib and if you wish to open a thread about Sunni view of Abu Talib, you are welcome to do so…There we will discuss all what Sunnis think of Abu Talib…This thread was about throwing and casting doubts on the faith, character and position that someone whom Sunnis hold dear occupy in their faith…Started by a Shia no less…
And Das Reichs claim is pretty idiotic that these people are role models for us, so it is important that we bring their deeds out and teach Sunnis how to to properly follow Islam by slandering, cursing, abusing, maligning, insulting the personalities that they hold dear…
Perhaps Das Reich like many Shias remains ignorant about the fact that our role model is the Prophet :saw: and we know the truth about him…
And if this is what Shiaism learns from its 12 Imams of how to spread knowledge, the deen, its virtues, its nobility and understanding, then Wallahi, I am better off following the example of Abu Lahab or Abu Jahil than any 12 Imams that Shias follow…
For any person or entity that can teach its adherents and followers to hate and abuse dead people as part of its devotion must be one twisted ideology…And what more could be said about the ones who follow it…
Yes it is extremly important to research and know the status of these people as these are the people we take ahadiths and islam from. The propeht brought islam to us but after him we relied on these people to inform rest of the wrold about Rasool Allahs techings.
Lajawab, you're the one making this discussion about insulting shias in general and picking out the more ridiculous beliefs in esoteric shia books and painting them here, presumably in an attempt to get this thread locked.
This discussion has been fairly civil, and nowhere has the stuff you mention about shias supposedly believing about Bibi Ayesha was even hinted at. IF you think that is an easy way to sidetrack this discussion that is another issue.
As a shia id be the first to reject any idea that Bibi Ayesha was an adulteress. The rest of your posts are all uncalled for and unrelated to anything said in this thread. Nor is your assertion that the moderatorship has kept this discussion civil honest. There has been nothing unsavoury of that sort said, until now, by you.
even after having been attested of her innocence and character by Allah :swt:? Isn’t it enough that you scholars consider that when the 12th Imam comes, he will exhume the body of the mother of the believers and punish her for zina